Philosophy undermines truth

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Skepdick
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Philosophy undermines truth

Post by Skepdick »

P1. Gödel brought to our attention the existence of unprovable truths.
P2. Philosophical social norms discriminate against the uttering of unprovable claims, even if those claims are true.
C. Therefore Philosophy values justification more than it values truth and in doing so undermines truth.

This leaves an open question: If Philosophy undermines the pursuit of truth; then what shall truth-seekers practice instead?
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Harbal
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Re: Philosophy undermines truth

Post by Harbal »

Skepdick wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 7:39 am P1. Gödel brought to our attention the existence of unprovable truths.
P2. Philosophical social norms discriminate against the uttering of unprovable claims, even if those claims are true.
C. Therefore Philosophy values justification more than it values truth and in doing so undermines truth.

This leaves an open question: If Philosophy undermines the pursuit of truth; then what shall truth-seekers practice instead?
I wonder what that means. :?
Skepdick
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Re: Philosophy undermines truth

Post by Skepdick »

Harbal wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 8:08 am
Skepdick wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 7:39 am P1. Gödel brought to our attention the existence of unprovable truths.
P2. Philosophical social norms discriminate against the uttering of unprovable claims, even if those claims are true.
C. Therefore Philosophy values justification more than it values truth and in doing so undermines truth.

This leaves an open question: If Philosophy undermines the pursuit of truth; then what shall truth-seekers practice instead?
I wonder what that means. :?
What's confusing you? Help me help you.
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Harbal
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Re: Philosophy undermines truth

Post by Harbal »

Skepdick wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 8:09 am
Harbal wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 8:08 am
Skepdick wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 7:39 am P1. Gödel brought to our attention the existence of unprovable truths.
P2. Philosophical social norms discriminate against the uttering of unprovable claims, even if those claims are true.
C. Therefore Philosophy values justification more than it values truth and in doing so undermines truth.

This leaves an open question: If Philosophy undermines the pursuit of truth; then what shall truth-seekers practice instead?
I wonder what that means. :?
What's confusing you? Help me help you.
I'm not confused; I just have no idea what you mean. Don't worry about it; I don't need to know.
Skepdick
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Re: Philosophy undermines truth

Post by Skepdick »

Harbal wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 8:13 am I'm not confused; I just have no idea what you mean. Don't worry about it; I don't need to know.
Thanks for informing me.

Do you need anything else?
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Harbal
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Re: Philosophy undermines truth

Post by Harbal »

Skepdick wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 8:15 am
Harbal wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 8:13 am I'm not confused; I just have no idea what you mean. Don't worry about it; I don't need to know.
Thanks for informing me.

Do you need anything else?
I could do with milk and a sliced loaf, please.
Skepdick
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Re: Philosophy undermines truth

Post by Skepdick »

Harbal wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 8:21 am
Skepdick wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 8:15 am
Harbal wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 8:13 am I'm not confused; I just have no idea what you mean. Don't worry about it; I don't need to know.
Thanks for informing me.

Do you need anything else?
I could do with milk and a sliced loaf, please.
Sure thing. Give me your name, address and phone number so I know where to have them delivered.
Will Bouwman
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Re: Philosophy undermines truth

Post by Will Bouwman »

Skepdick wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 7:39 amP1. Gödel brought to our attention the existence of unprovable truths.
As Descartes showed, apart from 'I think, therefore I am', everything that may be true is unprovable.
Skepdick wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 7:39 amP2. Philosophical social norms discriminate against the uttering of unprovable claims, even if those claims are true.
Well, you can make up such philosophical social norms and no doubt find individuals who do precisely that. I might counter with a philosophical social norm of my own, the adherents of which understand the story telling nature of philosophy, accept that every theory is underdetermined and acknowledge that any one of a number of hypotheses can explain the same phenomena, with the same precision as one or more other hypothesis and that therefore, there is no way to tell which, if any, is the truth.
Skepdick wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 7:39 amC. Therefore Philosophy values justification more than it values truth and in doing so undermines truth.
Yep; it's all about making a compelling case. According to my philosophical social norm, members don't undermine truth. They might undermine nutjobs who think they know it; more likely they'll ignore them.
Skepdick wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 7:39 amThis leaves an open question: If Philosophy undermines the pursuit of truth; then what shall truth-seekers practice instead?
Whatever fruitloopery floats their boat.
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Re: Philosophy undermines truth

Post by Skepdick »

Will Bouwman wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 9:13 am
Skepdick wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 7:39 amP1. Gödel brought to our attention the existence of unprovable truths.
As Descartes showed, apart from 'I think, therefore I am', everything that may be true is unprovable.
Q.E.D

Descartes was a philosopher and therefore an idiot.

He fell right into the Philosophical trap of profs and justifications with. Cogito ergo sum. A -> B

Why not Sum ergo cogito? B -> A?

Why not just Sum? Why not just Cogito? They are both true.
Will Bouwman wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 9:13 am
Skepdick wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 7:39 amP2. Philosophical social norms discriminate against the uttering of unprovable claims, even if those claims are true.
Well, you can make up such philosophical social norms and no doubt find individuals who do precisely that. I might counter with a philosophical social norm of my own, the adherents of which understand the story telling nature of philosophy, accept that every theory is underdetermined and acknowledge that any one of a number of hypotheses can explain the same phenomena, with the same precision as one or more other hypothesis and that therefore, there is no way to tell which, if any, is the truth.
Great! So how and why did you choose the story Cogito ergo sum; over the story Sum ergo cogito?

Seeming as they have equivalent explanatory power.
Will Bouwman wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 9:13 am
Skepdick wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 7:39 amC. Therefore Philosophy values justification more than it values truth and in doing so undermines truth.
Yep; it's all about making a compelling case.
A compeling case is a justification.

What compelled you about Cogito ergo sum that didn't compel you about Sum ergo cogito?
Will Bouwman wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 9:13 am According to my philosophical social norm, members don't undermine truth. They might undermine nutjobs who think they know it; more likely they'll ignore them.
So you think that undermining nutjobs who claim to know the truth need to be undermined? That sounds like a moral task; or a moral duty.

Do you think we should also undermine nutjobs who claim to know the truth that morality is subjective?
Will Bouwman wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 9:13 am
Skepdick wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 7:39 amThis leaves an open question: If Philosophy undermines the pursuit of truth; then what shall truth-seekers practice instead?
Whatever fruitloopery floats their boat.
Including or excluding the fruitloopery of Philosophy?
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Re: Philosophy undermines truth

Post by Will Bouwman »

Skepdick wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 9:43 amSo how and why did you choose the story Cogito ergo sum; over the story Sum ergo cogito?
Well, it seems to me that in order to think, one must exist. I don't happen to believe that in order to exist, one must think.
Skepdick wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 9:43 am
Will Bouwman wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 9:13 am
Skepdick wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 7:39 amC. Therefore Philosophy values justification more than it values truth and in doing so undermines truth.
Yep; it's all about making a compelling case.
A compeling case is a justification.
Yep; it's all about making a compelling case.
Skepdick wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 9:43 am
Will Bouwman wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 9:13 amAccording to my philosophical social norm, members don't undermine truth. They might undermine nutjobs who think they know it; more likely they'll ignore them.
So you think that undermining nutjobs who claim to know the truth need to be undermined? That sounds like a moral task; or a moral duty.
Depends on your morals. Sometimes having a go at nutjobs is just a bit of a laugh, and I entirely understand those who find it morally reprehensible to do so.
Skepdick wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 9:43 am
Will Bouwman wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 9:13 am
Skepdick wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 7:39 amThis leaves an open question: If Philosophy undermines the pursuit of truth; then what shall truth-seekers practice instead?
Whatever fruitloopery floats their boat.
Including or excluding the fruitloopery of Philosophy?
Definitely including.
Skepdick
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Re: Philosophy undermines truth

Post by Skepdick »

Will Bouwman wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 10:11 am
Skepdick wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 9:43 amSo how and why did you choose the story Cogito ergo sum; over the story Sum ergo cogito?
Well, it seems to me that in order to think, one must exist. I don't happen to believe that in order to exist, one must think.
Precisely! The true order of events is necessarily existence THEN thinking. Thinking is a consequent of existence.

Sum -> Cogito.

It trivially follows that Descartes is not telling the truth.
Will Bouwman wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 10:11 am Yep; it's all about making a compelling case.
I heard you the first time.

So what compelled you about Cogito ergo sum; that didn't compel you about sum ergo cogito?

What drew you away from the truth?
Will Bouwman wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 10:11 am Depends on your morals. Sometimes having a go at nutjobs is just a bit of a laugh, and I entirely understand those who find it morally reprehensible to do so.
Skepdick wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 9:43 am
Will Bouwman wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 9:13 amWhatever fruitloopery floats their boat.
Including or excluding the fruitloopery of Philosophy?
Definitely including.
Great, so is it moral or immoral for the fruitloopery of Philosophy to undermine truth?
Will Bouwman
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Re: Philosophy undermines truth

Post by Will Bouwman »

Skepdick wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 10:19 amThe true order of events is necessarily existence THEN thinking. Thinking is a consequent of existence.
The standard objection to Descartes is that it doesn't necessarily follow from thoughts that there has to be a thinker. All that necessarily follows from thoughts is that there are thoughts.
Skepdick wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 9:43 am...is it moral or immoral for the fruitloopery of Philosophy to undermine truth?
It's a bit like asking whether it is moral or immoral that bears shit in the woods.
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Re: Philosophy undermines truth

Post by Skepdick »

Will Bouwman wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 10:36 am
Skepdick wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 10:19 amThe true order of events is necessarily existence THEN thinking. Thinking is a consequent of existence.
The standard objection to Descartes is that it doesn't necessarily follow from thoughts that there has to be a thinker.
All that necessarily follows from thoughts is that there are thoughts.
Where is the "there" where thoughts are? Maybe you meant to say "All that necessarily follows from thoughts is that here are thoughts."?
Will Bouwman wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 10:36 am All that necessarily follows from thoughts is that there are thoughts.
Exactly. The necessary truth of the thinker's existence doesn't follow from anything.

And then there's the misnomer of calling oneself a thinker, especially during the periods of one's existence when one doesn't think.

An exister would've been a much better name.
Will Bouwman wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 10:36 am
Skepdick wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 9:43 am...is it moral or immoral for the fruitloopery of Philosophy to undermine truth?
It's a bit like asking whether it is moral or immoral that bears shit in the woods.
That sounds like you are agreeing on the truth that Philosophy undermines truth.
Will Bouwman
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Re: Philosophy undermines truth

Post by Will Bouwman »

Skepdick wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 10:43 amWhere is the "there" where thoughts are? Maybe you meant to say "All that necessarily follows from thoughts is that here are thoughts."?
No, it doesn't follow from any thought that there is any there anywhere.
Skepdick wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 10:43 am
Will Bouwman wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 10:36 amAll that necessarily follows from thoughts is that there are thoughts.
Exactly. The necessary truth of the thinker's existence doesn't follow from anything.
I don't think thinking necessarily implies a thinker.
Skepdick wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 10:43 amAnd then there's the misnomer of calling oneself a thinker, especially during the periods of one's existence when one doesn't think.
Descartes settled on thinking as a catch all term for having any experience at all. It could be that during the periods when one doesn't experience, one doesn't exist.
Skepdick wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 10:43 amAn exister would've been a much better name.
Except you can't prove an exister from a thought, unless you argue that the thought of an exister is the same as an exister.
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Harbal
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Re: Philosophy undermines truth

Post by Harbal »

Skepdick wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 8:23 am
Harbal wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 8:21 am
Skepdick wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 8:15 am
Thanks for informing me.

Do you need anything else?
I could do with milk and a sliced loaf, please.
Sure thing. Give me your name, address and phone number so I know where to have them delivered.
I am currently to be found at no fixed abode; you can leave them round the back.
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