PH's Stupidity: The "Mind" Does not Exist as Real

Should you think about your duty, or about the consequences of your actions? Or should you concentrate on becoming a good person?

Moderators: AMod, iMod

Post Reply
Veritas Aequitas
Posts: 12246
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:41 am

PH's Stupidity: The "Mind" Does not Exist as Real

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

ETA:
Peter Holmes wrote: Wed Aug 02, 2023 7:48 pm 'Science can't find the experiences themselves'. Or thoughts, feelings, intentions, decisions, memories, dreams, ideas, concepts, perceptions, knowledge, understanding - and on and on. And it can't find the mind.

Possible conclusions? The mind and mental things and events must be non-physical or abstract things, empirically undetectable? The mind and mental things and events don't actually exist at all?
To look for the mind and mental things and events somewhere, such as in the brain, is to make a category error?
To realise that the mentalist language we've learned is 'out in the open' - that it allows us to express our experiences in ways we can share?

Stuff, innit?

Imo, talk about minds and metal things and events is as much a shared language game as talk about our bodies and other features of reality outside our bodies. Any mysteries about it are of our own making.
viewtopic.php?p=659483#p659483

Peter Holmes wrote: Mon May 15, 2023 6:58 pm What sort of fucking moron would think that the noun phrase mind-independent referent has any coherent meaning whatsoever? Perhaps the sort of fucking moron who thinks that the noun phrase mind has a referent of any kind.

What sort of fucking moron would think that ostensive definition is foundational, or has any extra-contextual function?
You are the delusional moron who think mind-independent referent is not coherent based on your dogmatic thinking stuck with the Descartes' Mind–body Dualism Problem.
The idea of a separate mind from the body/brain was a serious issue then [even now] to refute the claim by theists and others that there is a separate mind, i.e. soul that could survive physical death and enter heaven.

Are you familiar with the Principle of Charity?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_charity

Any rational person when encountering the term 'mind' in the present state of discussion will be by default take 'mind' to be in the modern sense of 'what is mind'. One will have to highlight if otherwise.
The mind is the set of faculties responsible for all mental phenomena. Often the term is also identified with the phenomena themselves.[2][3][4]
These faculties include thought, imagination, memory, will, and sensation.
They are responsible for various mental phenomena, like perception, pain experience, belief, desire, intention, and emotion.
Various overlapping classifications of mental phenomena have been proposed.
Important distinctions group them according to whether they are sensory, propositional, intentional, conscious, or occurrent.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mind#Philosophy
In our present era, the concept of mind and its referent [not independent of the human conditions] is recognized within the various sciences, e.g. neuroscience, psychology, cognitive science, mental health, nutrition, etc. and other FSKs.

ETA: From ChatGpt:
  • The field of mind and brain research is extensive, covering various disciplines such as psychology, neuroscience, cognitive science, and philosophy of mind.

    Some popular research topics within this field might include:

    Cognitive psychology: Studies on memory, attention, perception, decision-making, problem-solving, and other cognitive processes.
    Neuroscience: Research on brain structure and function, neural networks, neurotransmitters, brain imaging, and the neurological basis of mental processes and behaviors.
    Psychiatry and psychology: Investigations into mental disorders, their diagnosis, treatment, and understanding the underlying mechanisms.
    Consciousness studies: Exploring the nature of consciousness, self-awareness, and subjective experiences.
    Social psychology: Research on how social interactions, group dynamics, and social influences affect cognition and behavior.
    Developmental psychology: Studies on the cognitive and emotional development of individuals across their lifespan.
    Behavioral neuroscience: Investigating the relationship between behavior and brain function.
Generally the brain is confined to the biological-anatomical aspects while the 'mind' encompasses all the related mental activities within the brain.

So, the noun phrase mind has a referent, i.e. the reference to a human-based FSK referent.

Something is obviously wrong with you in insisting and restricting the discussion of 'mind' to the Descartes' Mind–body Dualism Problem and refusing to recognize the modern definition of 'what is mind' within its specific FSK.

I believe the above is related to the following;
Physicalism
https://plato.stanford.edu/archives/sum ... ysicalism/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physicalism
versus
Panpsychism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panpsychism

Mind–body dualism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mind%E2%80%93body_dualism

My approach is that of Empirical Realism,
an emphasis on the empirical FSR-FSK methodology with support from critical and rational thinking.
Last edited by Veritas Aequitas on Thu Aug 03, 2023 5:26 am, edited 3 times in total.
Veritas Aequitas
Posts: 12246
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:41 am

Re: PH's Stupidity: The "Mind" Does not Exist as Real

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

PH: If you agree with W's 'meaning is use' how come you are rejecting the
meaning of 'mind' as used within the various FSKs I have mentioned? i.e. neuroscience, psychology, cognitive science, mental health, nutrition, etc. and other FSKs.
...........
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Thu Aug 03, 2023 7:01 am Note what is "physical" is even extended to 'morality'.
From a physicalist perspective, even abstract concepts such as mathematics, morality, consciousness, intentionality, and meaning are considered physical entities, although they may consist of a large ontological object and a causally complex structure. Nevertheless, they are still considered physical.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physicalism
https://plato.stanford.edu/archives/sum ... ysicalism/
Last edited by Veritas Aequitas on Thu Aug 03, 2023 7:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
Iwannaplato
Posts: 6591
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 10:55 pm

Re: PH's Stupidity: The "Mind" Does not Exist as Real

Post by Iwannaplato »

Peter Holmes wrote: ↑Tue May 16, 2023 7:34 am
viewtopic.php?p=642147#p642147
Do you ever say to someone that you had a dream or memory?
What do you mean when you say this?

When you say morals are not objective, I am assuming this means you think they are subjective.
What does 'subjective' mean there?
Skepdick
Posts: 14347
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:16 am

Re: PH's Stupidity: The "Mind" Does not Exist as Real

Post by Skepdick »

Iwannaplato wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 8:20 am
Peter Holmes wrote: ↑Tue May 16, 2023 7:34 am
viewtopic.php?p=642147#p642147
Do you ever say to someone that you had a dream or memory?
What do you mean when you say this?

When you say morals are not objective, I am assuming this means you think they are subjective.
What does 'subjective' mean there?
Language models are incapable of acquiring new memories.

Peter “Dumb Cun… err, I mean ChatGPT doesn’t even remember making any comments on this site.
Veritas Aequitas
Posts: 12246
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:41 am

Re: PH's Stupidity: The "Mind" Does not Exist as Real

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Peter Holmes wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 10:04 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 8:58 am
Peter Holmes wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 8:05 am Elsewhere, VA says the following:

'I argue that the mind-independent reality and things as claimed by Philosophical Realism are merely speculations based on faith and Assumptions.'

Well, I argue that the existence of minds - on which reality could be dependent, or from which reality could be independent - is a faith-based assumption, for which there is no evidence whatsoever.

So, there are only brains. And the claim that reality is not - and cannot be - independent from human brains is utterly farcical.
Strawman!

When I mentioned 'mind-independent' it is not meant for your reading but for the ordinary intellectual matured readers.

As for your kindergartenish thinking, I would refer to 'independent of the existence of humans' or human conditions, which ever you accept.
In your case, what is fact, a feature of reality which is just-is, being-so, that is the case will exist even there are no humans.

In this modern era, can you show me who else [with credible authority] claim there are no minds [see definition below] but there is only the physical brain.
The mind is the set of faculties responsible for all mental phenomena. They include thought, imagination, memory, will, and sensation.
-wiki
To repeat. The only evidence for the existence of minds is that we talk about having them, making them up, changing them, being in two of them, losing them, and so on. Mentalist talk - about minds containing mental things and events - and 'faculties', by some institutional analogy - is very obviously metaphorical.

Quoting a deluded description - how ever venerable - does nothing to rectify it.
You are indeed of very low intelligence in this aspect in confining the mind to mentalist.

I repeat there are two senses of reality, i.e.
1. FSK-ed reality
2. P-realist mind-independent reality.

I have argued your sense of P-realist mind-independent reality is illusory and you are delusional in being dogmatic about such an ideology.

In the FSK-ed sense of reality, what is a real mind [conditioned upon a brain] is conditioned upon a human-based FSK.
The criticalness of recognizing a FSK-ed real mind is its ability to contribute to the progress of humanity which is already evident in psychology, neurosciences, and others.

Note this;
For many people, the mind and brain are interchangeable. They use one word or the other to talk about the same thing: the organ in our skull that we use to think.

However, the mind and brain are actually two very different, but interconnected, entities.
As a neuroscientist, this reality is the foundation of my life's research and work: The mind works through the brain but is separate from the brain.
Note the positive consequence of recognized a human-based FSKed mind that is real as a separate entity from the physical brain.
Knowing your mind and brain are separate puts you in the control seat because you can learn to manage your thoughts and actions.
Ultimately, it means you can choose what you build into your brain and how you choose to change what's already built in.

When you learn how to manage your mind, you can make feelings of depression, stress, anger, and anxiety work for you instead of against you.
You can bring balance back into your brain and life.
https://www.mindbodygreen.com/articles/ ... oscientist
You are so dogmatic and useless in being delusional with an illusory ideology of human-independence, in contrast the tremendous benefits the concept of a FSK-ed real mind has contributed to the progress of humanity which will include moral progress in the future.
Veritas Aequitas
Posts: 12246
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:41 am

Mind Can Be Train, Brain Functions Cannot

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Here is a critical reason why there is a real FSK-ed mind and a separate FSK-ed brain.
There are many debates about the differences between the brain and the mind. However, one thing is for sure: mind skills can be trained, while brain function cannot be changed.
Mind skills such as decision-making, problem-solving, creativity, and communication can all be trained over time to increase the effectiveness of a person's mental processes.

To sum up, the brain and mind are two very distinct concepts; the brain is a physical organ, while the mind is an intangible concept.
While both are essential to a person's functioning, the brain is responsible for physical functions, while the mind is responsible for abstract thought and emotion and is not bound by the same physical laws as the brain.
https://www.jagranjosh.com/general-know ... 71691029-1
This ability of training for progress is significant for moral progress.
Peter Holmes
Posts: 3711
Joined: Tue Jul 18, 2017 3:53 pm

Re: Mind Can Be Train, Brain Functions Cannot

Post by Peter Holmes »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 12:12 pm Here is a critical reason why there is a real FSK-ed mind and a separate FSK-ed brain.
To sum up, the brain and mind are two very distinct concepts; the brain is a physical organ, while the mind is an intangible concept.
https://www.jagranjosh.com/general-know ... 71691029-1
Just look at the conceptual mess in this description. It's laughable.
Skepdick
Posts: 14347
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:16 am

Re: Mind Can Be Train, Brain Functions Cannot

Post by Skepdick »

Peter Holmes wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 12:33 pm Just look at the conceptual mess in this description. It's laughable.
What conceptual mess?

Concepts are mind-dependent.
Peter Holmes
Posts: 3711
Joined: Tue Jul 18, 2017 3:53 pm

Re: PH's Stupidity: The "Mind" Does not Exist as Real

Post by Peter Holmes »

Premise: mentalist talk is metaphorical.

Example: 'This description demonstrates a conceptual mess.'

Moronic observation: 'Ner. Concepts are mind-dependent.'

Fucking moron.
Veritas Aequitas
Posts: 12246
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:41 am

Re: PH's Stupidity: The "Mind" Does not Exist as Real

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Peter Holmes wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 1:42 pm Premise: mentalist talk is metaphorical.

Example: 'This description demonstrates a conceptual mess.'

Moronic observation: 'Ner. Concepts are mind-dependent.'

Fucking moron.
You are really dumb i.e. unintelligent in this case.

How can concepts emerged without humans [with a brain-conditioned-mind, not your version of what is mind]
Veritas Aequitas
Posts: 12246
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:41 am

Re: Mind Can Be Train, Brain Functions Cannot

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 12:12 pm Here is a critical reason why there is a real FSK-ed mind and a separate FSK-ed brain.
There are many debates about the differences between the brain and the mind. However, one thing is for sure: mind skills can be trained, while brain function cannot be changed.
Mind skills such as decision-making, problem-solving, creativity, and communication can all be trained over time to increase the effectiveness of a person's mental processes.

To sum up, the brain and mind are two very distinct concepts; the brain is a physical organ, while the mind is an intangible concept.
While both are essential to a person's functioning, the brain is responsible for physical functions, while the mind is responsible for abstract thought and emotion and is not bound by the same physical laws as the brain.
https://www.jagranjosh.com/general-know ... 71691029-1
This ability of training for progress is significant for moral progress.
What is wrong with that?

The mind as a real thing is grounded in its specific FSK, e.g. psychology, neuroscience, social that is further grounded on the physical brain via the science-biology FSK.
The mind cannot exists without the brain, but the human mind is not 100% the brain.

Btw, if you are clinging to Philosophical Realism, i.e. things [feature of reality] are independent of the human existence, e.g. the moon pre-existed humans,
so, is the brain [a thing - a feature of reality] independent of human existence?
This is very ridiculous because your ideology of independence is ridiculous and nonsensical.

Thus the anti-philosophical-realism view is more realistic, i.e.
all of reality, facts, truths, knowledge and objectivity are conditioned upon a specific human-based FSK. [note the emerging and realization factor within the FSK].
So, all things and also the brain [as a thing] CANNOT be independent of human existence or human nature [conditions].

At present you are the rare breed of people [dogmatic and relatively stupid] within the scientific and philosophical community who are still stuck with the idea that the human mind do not exists as real; the rest are accepting the "human mind" grounded on the brain is real based on their specific human based FSK and contributing greatly to humanity's progress.
Veritas Aequitas
Posts: 12246
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:41 am

Re: PH's Stupidity: The "Mind" Does not Exist as Real

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Peter Holmes wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 11:26 am What and where is the mind, and in what way does it exist?

If the mind is a physical thing, what evidence is there for its existence?

If the mind is a non-physical thing, what evidence is there for its existence? How can a non-physical cause have a physical effect? How can a physical effect be evidence for a non-physical cause? What is the causal mechanism?

Oh dear. 'Of course the mind exists 'as real'. But. Erm. Oh dear.'
We are not referring to Descartes' body-mind dualism.

A FSK-ed mind which is real exists as grounded upon the brain and also the body.
If there is no FSK-ed brain, there is no FSK-ed mind, but the mind is not 100% brain anatomically.

A dead corpse has a brain but no mind.
A living person has a brain and being a live brain enables an emerging mind driven by 13.7 billions of forces and evolutionary elements.

All human mental activities are not from a brain itself but from the mind that is driven by living forces upon a highly evolved physical brain.

To be precise, if there is no mind, but a mere anatomical brain [in a corpse or a person in coma], a person will not be able to be conscious and do things like writing a book, composing songs & poetry, arts, sports, be moral competent, etc.
Veritas Aequitas
Posts: 12246
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:41 am

Re: PH's Stupidity: The "Mind" Does not Exist as Real

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Peter Holmes wrote: Tue Aug 01, 2023 7:32 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Tue Aug 01, 2023 6:26 am
Peter Holmes wrote: Mon Jul 31, 2023 11:20 am
Until you prove that the non-physical mind exists, the distinction you make between mind-dependence and mind-independence is incoherent - as is your charge that I believe in a mind-independent reality. A mind-independent reality is as stupid an idea as a noumenon - which is Kant's version of the fiction.

But you won't understand what I've just written, because you can't grasp very simple arguments.
What??
I have been charging you for being narrow, shallow and dogmatic minded as supported with evidence.

Your philosophy in this case is grounded on an illusion, i.e. what is fact is illusory.
PH's What is Fact is Illusory
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=39577
PH's Philosophical Realism is Illusory
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=39992

What is fact to you is illusory.
For example as a philosophical realist you insist there is a real physical and absolutely mind-independent apple out there; this based on an illusion, thus illusory.
Based on this illusory grounding, you insist if a 'mind' exists, then, a mind must be like an absolutely mind independent physical apple out there.
This is an absurd kind of thinking.

I have argued,
There are Two Senses of Reality
viewtopic.php?t=40265
i.e.
1. FSK-ed based reality, fact [relative mind-independence] - realistic
2. Philosophical Realism - absolute mind-independence - illusory

In the case of the FSK-ed concept of mind, it is this;
  • The mind (adjective form: mental) is that which thinks, imagines, remembers, wills, and senses, or is the set of faculties responsible for such phenomena.[2][3][4] The mind is also associated with experiencing perception, pleasure and pain, belief, desire, intention, and emotion. The mind can include conscious and non-conscious states as well as sensory and non-sensory experiences.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mind
It is obvious that the mind above would not be like a physical apple like what you are expecting within your philosophical realism's absolute mind-independence.
It is very stupid to reject the physical empirical mind as defined above because it cannot conform to your ideology which is illusory in the first place.

However, what is needed to be rejected is the claim of an absolutely independent mind re dualism which is the soul and can survive physical death.

Within the FSK-ed factual mind, the mind is empirical and physical as supported by its physical neural correlates within the brain and body.

It is like a symphony orchestra which is empirically physical is represented by physical musicians or a team which is empirically physical and is represented by physical humans.

If you are not an intellectual coward, counter my above line by line.
Prove that the non-physical mind - and therefore non-physical, 'mental' things and events - exist. Quoting a description that assumes it and they do proves nothing.

'The mind exists, because it's where thinking goes on.' (Face palm.)

When we abandon the myth of the mind, the stupidity of talking about mind-dependence and mind-independence becomes obvious. For example, it's ridiculous to believe that reality depends on human brains, bodies or 'conditions'?
Strawman, where did I claim there is a non-physical mind?
How can you be so ignorant and delusional??

I claimed there is an objective physical mind that is conditioned upon the science-biology-psychology FSK; the mind is supported by its physical neural correlates.

I have defined what is the FSK-ed mind as this;
  • The mind (adjective form: mental) is that which thinks, imagines, remembers, wills, and senses, or is the set of faculties responsible for such phenomena.[2][3][4]
    The mind is also associated with experiencing perception, pleasure and pain, belief, desire, intention, and emotion.
    The mind can include conscious and non-conscious states as well as sensory and non-sensory experiences.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mind
The above has nothing to do with Descartes' dualism.

How can you be so ignorant that there are loads of scientific studies to confirm the structure, features, structures, processes, resulting effects of the mind as defined above?
These are proofs that the objective FSK-ed physical mind exists as empirically real.

Can you justify why such a FSK-ed physical mind do not exists as real?
Peter Holmes
Posts: 3711
Joined: Tue Jul 18, 2017 3:53 pm

Re: PH's Stupidity: The "Mind" Does not Exist as Real

Post by Peter Holmes »

Iwannaplato wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 8:20 am
Peter Holmes wrote: ↑Tue May 16, 2023 7:34 am
viewtopic.php?p=642147#p642147
Do you ever say to someone that you had a dream or memory?
What do you mean when you say this?

When you say morals are not objective, I am assuming this means you think they are subjective.
What does 'subjective' mean there?
Yes, I talk about having dreams and memories - and about the difference between objectivity and subjectivity. But so what? Are you suggesting that such talk is or must be about non-physical things? And if so, why?
Veritas Aequitas
Posts: 12246
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:41 am

Re: PH's Stupidity: The "Mind" Does not Exist as Real

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Here is something points from ChatGpt with reference to mind-skeptics people like PH.

ChatGpt [with reservation] [changed]
Expecting someone that the mind exists as a physical entity can be challenging, as it delves into complex philosophical and scientific discussions.
Here are some points you can use to support the idea that the mind has a physical basis and is empirically studied within various disciplines:

Brain-Body Connection: One of the most fundamental pieces of evidence for the physical basis of the mind is the close connection between brain and mind. Studies in neuroscience consistently demonstrate that changes in brain activity correlate with changes in mental states, emotions, and cognitive functions. Brain damage, diseases, or injuries can lead to significant alterations in mental processes and behaviors.

Neuroimaging and Brain Mapping: Advanced neuroimaging techniques, such as fMRI (functional magnetic resonance imaging) and PET (positron emission tomography), allow scientists to observe the brain in action while individuals perform various mental tasks or experience emotions. These experiments have shown that specific brain regions are consistently associated with particular mental processes, providing concrete evidence of the physical basis of the mind.

Neural Correlates of Consciousness: The study of neural correlates of consciousness aims to identify the brain mechanisms responsible for subjective experiences. Researchers have identified brain activity patterns associated with conscious experiences, which further support the notion that consciousness and the mind have a physical basis.

Effect of Drugs and Chemicals: Various psychoactive drugs and substances can significantly alter mental states, mood, and cognition by affecting brain chemistry and neural activity. The fact that external chemicals can impact the mind demonstrates the intimate relationship between the physical brain and mental processes.

Behavioral Genetics: Studies on identical twins and family genetics provide evidence that certain mental traits and conditions have a heritable component. This suggests that specific mental characteristics are influenced by genetic factors, which, in turn, interact with the physical structure of the brain.

Developmental Psychology: Research in developmental psychology shows how the mind evolves and develops from infancy to adulthood. The progression of cognitive abilities and the formation of various mental processes coincide with the maturation of the brain.

Artificial Intelligence and Cognitive Science: The field of artificial intelligence (AI) and cognitive science has made significant progress in simulating mental processes through computer models and algorithms. While AI is not identical to human minds, these simulations demonstrate that complex mental processes can be reduced to physical computations.

Philosophical Arguments: There are several philosophical arguments, such as the mind-brain identity theory and materialism, which propose that mental phenomena are identical to physical brain processes. These philosophical positions are supported by empirical evidence and align with scientific findings in neuroscience and related disciplines.

When discussing such a complex topic, it's essential to be patient and open to engaging in a constructive conversation.
Present the evidence from neuroscience, cognitive science, and related fields as objectively as possible.
Acknowledge that the mind is a multifaceted concept, and different philosophical perspectives exist.
Encourage your [opponent] to explore reputable scientific literature and engage with experts in the field to gain a deeper understanding of the topic. Ultimately, individual beliefs and perspectives may not change overnight, but respectful dialogue and exposure to evidence-based information can lead to a more informed view.
....................

In any case I am not expecting PH to grasp the above due to his being delusional and grounding on illusory ideas.
Post Reply