My nephew's fifth birthday party.

[FlashDangerpants]

On the occasion of his fifth birthday, my nephew made a huge discovery in the field of moral philosophy and I am duty bound to recount it here for you all.

Our grand endeavour began with a party game called ' pin the tail on the donkey', which my nephew won mainly because he at least walked to the correct wall and placed the tail within a meter of the donkey's arse. An epic win, and he was richly rewarded with some sort of prize. These were the good times, the times before The Calamity.

Some more childish party games occurred, they were forgettable and I have forgotten them. But finally there came a fateful game of lying very still and being competitively quiet. After a minute or two of relative peace, the adults started catching children mid squirm, prioritising all the kids that had already won a game of something else. Sadly, this was the last game, and we had to award victory to the only kid who had yet to earn a prize. He was a proper fidgety little bastard, while my nephew really commited to the bit and wouldn't move a fucking muscle. This required us to sort of lie about which kid was moving and which was laying still, and the lie wasn't all that subtle if I'm honest with you.

Heavily partied out and sugarred up to the eyballs, the newphew was stung by the corruption and injustice of it all. The poor little kid cried his little 5 year old heart out, for he knew that this was a stitch up and he knew it to be a lie, and we had spent a lot of time before he was 5 making sure he knew that lies are wrong. Sounds bad when you put it that way right? Worse though, came when we explained that we did it to be fair, so that every kid could win a game and have a prize and make the whole birthday better. He got it, he agreed it was fair and affirmed that he understood. Then he cried twice as hard as before.

The true calamity had just struck him: he learned one of life's bitterest lessons that day... Where he had childishly, and optimistically, supposed that justice and fairness must be happy bedfellows, that poor boy learned they are strangers to each other on a good day, and deadly foes at all other times.

It's a lesson that we all learn around that age, and then we spend the rest of our lives trying to forget. We search for moral certainty based upon some preference for one moral desideratum over another, but the one we must discard was just as important as the one we protected. And this is why certainty based upon moral truth will always elude us.

We could have chosen a winner takes all, Ayn Rand themed birthday party for the kid I suppose, I doubt it would have ended with fewer tears and recriminations though.

[iambiguous]

This reminds me of Boris and Peggy:

...consider this observation from Michael Novak's The Experience Of Nothingness

Jules Henry:

Boris had trouble reducing 12/16 to the lowest terms, and could only get as far as 6/8. The teacher asked him quietly if that was as far as he could reduce it. She suggested he 'think'. Much heaving up and down and waving of hands by the other children, all frantic to correct him. Boris pretty unhappy, probably mentally paralyzed. The teacher quiet, patient, ignores the others and concentrates with look and voice on Boris. After a minute or two she turns to the the class and says, 'Well, who can tell Boris what the number is?' A forest of hands appears, and the teacher calls on Peggy. Peggy says that four may be divided into the numerator and the denominator.

Henry remarks:

Boris's failure made it possible for Peggy to succeed; his misery is the occasion for her rejoicing. This is a standard condition of the contemporary American elementary school. To a Zuni, Hopi or Dakota Indian, Peggy's performance would seem cruel beyond belief, for competition, the wringing of success from somebody's failure, is a form of torture foreign to those non-competitive cultures.

In other words, there are extant cultures in which "I" predominate and cultures in which "we" prevail. And in the modern world there are any number of instances [in any number of contexts] in which one is ranked and then rated higher than the other.

But who is really able to say that, when push comes to shove, they and only they grasp the one true understanding of all of this relating to right and wrong and good and bad and true and false.

The objectivists of course...

Objectivists like Ayn Rand.

Sure, you can embrace her own moral philosophy and go with the deserving individuals, or you can recognize that in many different ways [especially among children] there are any number of factors [fair and unfair] that make some better than others at different things.

Another example of this revolves around cheating: https://ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopic.p ... d#p2331872

[vegetariantaxidermy]

That's just wrong. And the 'faux winner' would have known it was an empty 'win' too. Children are far more intelligent than adults. I feel for your nephew. He now knows that adults are disingenuous, deceitful liars.

[ThinkOfOne]

On the occasion of his fifth birthday, my nephew made a huge discovery in the field of moral philosophy and I am duty bound to recount it here for you all.

Our grand endeavour began with a party game called ' pin the tail on the donkey', which my nephew won mainly because he at least walked to the correct wall and placed the tail within a meter of the donkey's arse. An epic win, and he was richly rewarded with some sort of prize. These were the good times, the times before The Calamity.

Some more childish party games occurred, they were forgettable and I have forgotten them. But finally there came a fateful game of lying very still and being competitively quiet. After a minute or two of relative peace, the adults started catching children mid squirm, prioritising all the kids that had already won a game of something else. Sadly, this was the last game, and we had to award victory to the only kid who had yet to earn a prize. He was a proper fidgety little bastard, while my nephew really commited to the bit and wouldn't move a fucking muscle. This required us to sort of lie about which kid was moving and which was laying still, and the lie wasn't all that subtle if I'm honest with you.

Heavily partied out and sugarred up to the eyballs, the newphew was stung by the corruption and injustice of it all. The poor little kid cried his little 5 year old heart out, for he knew that this was a stitch up and he knew it to be a lie, and we had spent a lot of time before he was 5 making sure he knew that lies are wrong. Sounds bad when you put it that way right? Worse though, came when we explained that we did it to be fair, so that every kid could win a game and have a prize and make the whole birthday better. He got it, he agreed it was fair and affirmed that he understood. Then he cried twice as hard as before.

The true calamity had just struck him: he learned one of life's bitterest lessons that day... Where he had childishly, and optimistically, supposed that justice and fairness must be happy bedfellows, that poor boy learned they are strangers to each other on a good day, and deadly foes at all other times.

It's a lesson that we all learn around that age, and then we spend the rest of our lives trying to forget. We search for moral certainty based upon some preference for one moral desideratum over another, but the one we must discard was just as important as the one we protected. And this is why certainty based upon moral truth will always elude us.

We could have chosen a winner takes all, Ayn Rand themed birthday party for the kid I suppose, I doubt it would have ended with fewer tears and recriminations though.

As if it weren't bad enough that the "adults" lied to all the children playing that game, they then tried to sell him a load with the idea that it was done out of "fairness". No doubt he understood that THAT was a lie too. No wonder that he cried "twice as hard as before".

No surprise that he "agreed it was fair and affirmed that he understood". A five-year-old being brow beat by multiple "adults"? What could he say?

All the "adults" involved need to apologize and explain that they were wrong and where they got it wrong. Lest he grow up to be an adult that is as clueless about morality and fairness as them. Most likely the "adults" are clueless because of a similar experience when they were children.

If you don't understand everywhere you got it wrong, you really need to have a think on it. You guys mucked things up about as much as could be. Even worse, you believe the ridiculous rationalizations that you generated so that you could feel good about it.

[Impenitent]

he'll learn soon enough that he can wear a dress and compete against girls

https://nypost.com/2023/03/30/male-powe ... ks-record/

-Imp

[Agent Smith]

He walked up to the child, the child was not alone. He smiled, they smiled. The three of them were smiling.

[vegetariantaxidermy]

The more I think about this the angrier I get. 'So what?' even if he won EVERY game fairly. It's HIS birthday. I don't remember winning anything at my own birthdays, or it particularly bothering me, but what I DO know is that I would have been traumatised if my parents had cheated me out of winning just to keep some OTHER child happy. That's confidence-destroying. Something that lasts. Your nephew will probably remember this for the rest of his life. His parent are obviously complete idiots. Most likely wokies.
My beloved grandmother used to tell me about how when she was very young she was chosen for the top netball team. One of the girls who missed out had a huge sobbing tantrum that the coach couldn't deal with so she just put my grandmother into the lower team and the manipulative girl into the top one. My grandmother never forgot. Unfairness stays with you forever. The 'faux' winner at your nephew's party would have no doubt forgotten about his 'win' by the next day, unless he has a conscience and the embarrassment and shame stayed with him--probably a bit much to expect from a five year old.

[attofishpi]

Yeah, the kid will probably end up a psychotic child entertainer when he has his mid life crisis and starts putting his wife's make up on, smearing it into the smile of a clown. (and all because the parents weren't smart enough to blindfold the kids)

When I was about 7 me and a few cousins were in Christchurch with the grandparents, There was a hill with what remained of a castle or church at the top and the GPs told us to race up the hill. Now my cousin was the same age but was much shorter than me, and a bloody good football player which I always envied - so we bolt up the hill and I got there first the clear winner but my Nan called out "Markys the winner" - well I was fucked off to say the least, I lost my shit at them, ran down the hill and into the town where I ran into a clothes shop and hid in a rack of clothes for about 20 mins.

Now I spend my spare time hiding in bushes and blowing peas at random old women's faces.

[vegetariantaxidermy]

Probably why you are such a basket case now.
I'm just looking forward to seeing Charlie trip on his purple robes tonight and his old slapper of a wife booed out of the abbey. What a prat.

[attofishpi]

How dare you talk so disrespectfully of your king.

[vegetariantaxidermy]

Not MY king.

[FlashDangerpants]

I presented an exaggerated tale for the purpose of showing how the argument from moral diversity can take a stronger form than is commonly assumed, on a philosophy forum where that sort of thing is supposed to get discussed.... and then nothing but howling mad grandmas losing their fucking shit over nothing.

The kid is 20 now, so I guess I'll see if he is still in anguish over this horrible injustice from 15 years ago next time I see him. You guys are really fucking weird.

[Age]

On the occasion of his fifth birthday, my nephew made a huge discovery in the field of moral philosophy and I am duty bound to recount it here for you all.

Our grand endeavour began with a party game called ' pin the tail on the donkey', which my nephew won mainly because he at least walked to the correct wall and placed the tail within a meter of the donkey's arse. An epic win, and he was richly rewarded with some sort of prize. These were the good times, the times before The Calamity.

Some more childish party games occurred, they were forgettable and I have forgotten them. But finally there came a fateful game of lying very still and being competitively quiet. After a minute or two of relative peace, the adults started catching children mid squirm, prioritising all the kids that had already won a game of something else. Sadly, this was the last game, and we had to award victory to the only kid who had yet to earn a prize. He was a proper fidgety little bastard, while my nephew really commited to the bit and wouldn't move a fucking muscle. This required us to sort of lie about which kid was moving and which was laying still, and the lie wasn't all that subtle if I'm honest with you.

Heavily partied out and sugarred up to the eyballs, the newphew was stung by the corruption and injustice of it all. The poor little kid cried his little 5 year old heart out, for he knew that this was a stitch up and he knew it to be a lie, and we had spent a lot of time before he was 5 making sure he knew that lies are wrong.

YET you STILL LIED to 'it'.

Sounds bad when you put it that way right?

Firstly, 'what' may 'sound bad'?

Secondly, 'sound bad' in relation to 'what', EXACTLY?

Worse though, came when we explained that we did it to be fair, so that every kid could win a game and have a prize and make the whole birthday better. He got it, he agreed it was fair and affirmed that he understood. Then he cried twice as hard as before.

The true calamity had just struck him: he learned one of life's bitterest lessons that day... Where he had childishly, and optimistically, supposed that justice and fairness must be happy bedfellows, that poor boy learned they are strangers to each other on a good day, and deadly foes at all other times.

So, how about 'you', adult human beings, STOP making up games WITH so-called 'winners' AND so-called 'losers'?

SAYING, we are going to play games and give 'prizes' to 'the winners', but NOT inform them that EVERY one 'playing' is GOING TO 'win' one game, is REALLY just ANOTHER LIE.

It's a lesson that we all learn around that age, and then we spend the rest of our lives trying to forget. We search for moral certainty based upon some preference for one moral desideratum over another, but the one we must discard was just as important as the one we protected. And this is why certainty based upon moral truth will always elude us.

LOL with views like this one here there is NO wonder WHY UNCOVERING 'moral truth' ELUDED those human beings, back in the days when this was being written.

IRREFUTABLE moral Truth is ALREADY KNOWN, that is; If ANY one is Truly INTERESTED.

We could have chosen a winner takes all, Ayn Rand themed birthday party for the kid I suppose, I doubt it would have ended with fewer tears and recriminations though.

REALLY?

What kind of 'society' do you ACTUALLY live WITH (and) IN?

Have you REALLY brought up children to CRY, just because they have NOT 'won' a 'prize'?

NO wonder there are so MANY of 'you', adult human beings, in the days when this is being written, who so DESPERATELY SEEK OUT to 'win' 'prizes'.

[Age]

That's just wrong. And the 'faux winner' would have known it was an empty 'win' too. Children are far more intelligent than adults. I feel for your nephew. He now knows that adults are disingenuous, deceitful liars.

Well that child is NOT the ONLY one on earth. As just about EVERY "other" child, in the days when this is being written, have HAD TO grow up with and endure disingenuous, deceitful lying adults. Do you 'feel' for ALL of these ones too?

[Age]

On the occasion of his fifth birthday, my nephew made a huge discovery in the field of moral philosophy and I am duty bound to recount it here for you all.

Our grand endeavour began with a party game called ' pin the tail on the donkey', which my nephew won mainly because he at least walked to the correct wall and placed the tail within a meter of the donkey's arse. An epic win, and he was richly rewarded with some sort of prize. These were the good times, the times before The Calamity.

Some more childish party games occurred, they were forgettable and I have forgotten them. But finally there came a fateful game of lying very still and being competitively quiet. After a minute or two of relative peace, the adults started catching children mid squirm, prioritising all the kids that had already won a game of something else. Sadly, this was the last game, and we had to award victory to the only kid who had yet to earn a prize. He was a proper fidgety little bastard, while my nephew really commited to the bit and wouldn't move a fucking muscle. This required us to sort of lie about which kid was moving and which was laying still, and the lie wasn't all that subtle if I'm honest with you.

Heavily partied out and sugarred up to the eyballs, the newphew was stung by the corruption and injustice of it all. The poor little kid cried his little 5 year old heart out, for he knew that this was a stitch up and he knew it to be a lie, and we had spent a lot of time before he was 5 making sure he knew that lies are wrong. Sounds bad when you put it that way right? Worse though, came when we explained that we did it to be fair, so that every kid could win a game and have a prize and make the whole birthday better. He got it, he agreed it was fair and affirmed that he understood. Then he cried twice as hard as before.

The true calamity had just struck him: he learned one of life's bitterest lessons that day... Where he had childishly, and optimistically, supposed that justice and fairness must be happy bedfellows, that poor boy learned they are strangers to each other on a good day, and deadly foes at all other times.

It's a lesson that we all learn around that age, and then we spend the rest of our lives trying to forget. We search for moral certainty based upon some preference for one moral desideratum over another, but the one we must discard was just as important as the one we protected. And this is why certainty based upon moral truth will always elude us.

We could have chosen a winner takes all, Ayn Rand themed birthday party for the kid I suppose, I doubt it would have ended with fewer tears and recriminations though.

As if it weren't bad enough that the "adults" lied to all the children playing that game, they then tried to sell him a load with the idea that it was done out of "fairness". No doubt he understood that THAT was a lie too. No wonder that he cried "twice as hard as before".

No surprise that he "agreed it was fair and affirmed that he understood". A five-year-old being brow beat by multiple "adults"? What could he say?

All the "adults" involved need to apologize and explain that they were wrong and where they got it wrong. Lest he grow up to be an adult that is as clueless about morality and fairness as them. Most likely the "adults" are clueless because of a similar experience when they were children.

'Most likely'. It is EXACTLY WHY ALL adults ENDED UP DOING Wrong.

If you don't understand everywhere you got it wrong, you really need to have a think on it.

But, obviously, 'you', adult human beings, can NOT 'have a think on it' WHEN 'you' do NOT even KNOW WHERE 'you' got 'it' Wrong.

You guys mucked things up about as much as could be. Even worse, you believe the ridiculous rationalizations that you generated so that you could feel good about it.

Is there AN adult human being who does NOT 'muck things up' NOR does NOT BELIEVE the RIDICULOUS "rationalizations" generated so that 'they' could feel good about the ACTUAL Wrong that 'they' ARE DOING, some of which 'they' do NOT YET even RECOGNIZE and KNOW 'they' ARE DOING?