Reality is Both Meaningful and Meaningless

So what's really going on?

Moderators: AMod, iMod

Age
Posts: 20198
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: Reality is Both Meaningful and Meaningless

Post by Age »

Dontaskme wrote: Mon May 08, 2023 12:44 pm Knowing is primary and fundamentally sourced from within one's own self,
you CLAIM something like 'nondual' IS REAL and 'dualism' IS False, YET here you are SAYING 'things' like, 'within one's OWN self'. How, in ALL Honesty could there be 'one' AS WELL AS there be 'one's own self'?

If 'you' SERIOUSLY WANT to FIGHT and ARGUE for 'your' POSITION OF and ABOUT 'nondual', then 'you' REALLY NEED TO STICK to just USING the Right AND Correct words, ONLY
Dontaskme wrote: Mon May 08, 2023 12:44 pm and this knowing is a self-evident self-referential knowing without doubt or error.
And what IS 'it', EXACTLY, here which 'you' CLAIM to KNOW?
Dontaskme wrote: Mon May 08, 2023 12:44 pm As this knowing, the only knowing there is, can never be unknown once known. Paradoxically, this knowing cannot know how it is knowing,
WOW, 'this' is VERY CONVENIENT FOR 'you', "dontaskme", as 'you' then do NOT have to COME-UP-WITH NOR PROVIDE ANY ANSWER WHEN 'you' ARE QUESTIONED and/or CHALLENGED OVER 'this' CLAIM of YOURS here, correct?
Dontaskme wrote: Mon May 08, 2023 12:44 pm the HOW is unknown, and therefore, can and does know the concept of un-known.
BUT the HOW, the WHY, the WHERE, the WHAT, AND the WHEN OF ALL-THERE-IS is ALL ALREADY KNOWN. AND, BY WHO, EXACTLY, AS WELL.
Dontaskme wrote: Mon May 08, 2023 12:44 pm This knowing self is sourced only within itself and sounds very much like solipsism, but that's because knowing cannot know what it is like to experience the external world it knows, it can only project the external world it knows from within itself. The external world is not sensed, it is projected from within the source of knowing, you are that knowing.
BUT, and VERY OBVIOUSLY, there IS NO 'external' NOR 'internal' 'world' to the One and ONLY 'Universal World'.

'Internal' and 'external' are just VIEWS, which 'you', human beings, have MADE UP and which some of 'you' BELIEVE ARE TRUE.
Dontaskme wrote: Mon May 08, 2023 12:44 pm Therefore, the external world must always exist in conjunction with knowing, and could never not exist or be denied, else SOURCE does not exist either..
'SOURCE' is ANOTHER NAME that 'you', "dontaskme", USE for what 'you' CLAIM IS 'unnameable'.

So, this is the SEVEN NAME now that 'you' HAVE for the so-called 'unnameable', right?
Dontaskme wrote: Mon May 08, 2023 12:44 pm Source is the emptiness of all things known. Emptiness doesn't have to mean nothingness. What remains of us when we no longer think or feel anything? like in deep dreamless sleep. Emptiness doesn't mean nothing, it just means there is no substance or separation to be found anywhere in the whole of totalities existence.

.
Okay. BUT do 'you' THINK ANY one FULLY UNDERSTANDS 'this' here?
User avatar
Dontaskme
Posts: 16940
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2016 2:07 pm
Location: Nowhere

Re: Reality is Both Meaningful and Meaningless

Post by Dontaskme »

Age wrote: Mon May 08, 2023 2:48 pm
'SOURCE' is ANOTHER NAME that 'you', "dontaskme", USE for what 'you' CLAIM IS 'unnameable'.

So, this is the SEVEN NAME now that 'you' HAVE for the so-called 'unnameable', right?
7 or more names arise and fall, appear and return to the nameless one that does not arise and fall, appear or return.

In the same nondual context a sound arises and falls in silence.
Age
Posts: 20198
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: Reality is Both Meaningful and Meaningless

Post by Age »

Dontaskme wrote: Mon May 08, 2023 3:14 pm
Age wrote: Mon May 08, 2023 2:48 pm
'SOURCE' is ANOTHER NAME that 'you', "dontaskme", USE for what 'you' CLAIM IS 'unnameable'.

So, this is the SEVEN NAME now that 'you' HAVE for the so-called 'unnameable', right?
7 or more names arise and fall, appear and return to the nameless one that does not arise and fall, appear or return.
So, you agree that just you alone have provided different 'names' to the so-called 'nameless', and 'unnameable', on at least seven different occasions "yourself", right?
Dontaskme wrote: Mon May 08, 2023 3:14 pm In the same nondual context a sound arises and falls in silence.
User avatar
Agent Smith
Posts: 1442
Joined: Fri Aug 12, 2022 12:23 pm

Re: Reality is Both Meaningful and Meaningless

Post by Agent Smith »

Age wrote: Tue May 09, 2023 8:26 am
Dontaskme wrote: Mon May 08, 2023 3:14 pm
Age wrote: Mon May 08, 2023 2:48 pm
'SOURCE' is ANOTHER NAME that 'you', "dontaskme", USE for what 'you' CLAIM IS 'unnameable'.

So, this is the SEVEN NAME now that 'you' HAVE for the so-called 'unnameable', right?
7 or more names arise and fall, appear and return to the nameless one that does not arise and fall, appear or return.
So, you agree that just you alone have provided different 'names' to the so-called 'nameless', and 'unnameable', on at least seven different occasions "yourself", right?
Dontaskme wrote: Mon May 08, 2023 3:14 pm In the same nondual context a sound arises and falls in silence.
As far as I'm concerned, Age, we must differentiate betwixt reason, whim, and impotence. :mrgreen:
Age
Posts: 20198
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: Reality is Both Meaningful and Meaningless

Post by Age »

Agent Smith wrote: Tue May 09, 2023 8:44 am
Age wrote: Tue May 09, 2023 8:26 am
Dontaskme wrote: Mon May 08, 2023 3:14 pm

7 or more names arise and fall, appear and return to the nameless one that does not arise and fall, appear or return.
So, you agree that just you alone have provided different 'names' to the so-called 'nameless', and 'unnameable', on at least seven different occasions "yourself", right?
Dontaskme wrote: Mon May 08, 2023 3:14 pm In the same nondual context a sound arises and falls in silence.
As far as I'm concerned, Age, we must differentiate betwixt reason, whim, and impotence. :mrgreen:
Okay.
User avatar
Agent Smith
Posts: 1442
Joined: Fri Aug 12, 2022 12:23 pm

Re: Reality is Both Meaningful and Meaningless

Post by Agent Smith »

Age wrote: Tue May 09, 2023 11:40 am
Agent Smith wrote: Tue May 09, 2023 8:44 am
Age wrote: Tue May 09, 2023 8:26 am

So, you agree that just you alone have provided different 'names' to the so-called 'nameless', and 'unnameable', on at least seven different occasions "yourself", right?
As far as I'm concerned, Age, we must differentiate betwixt reason, whim, and impotence. :mrgreen:
Okay.
😌

I sense a great disturbance in the force. 😁
Age
Posts: 20198
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: Reality is Both Meaningful and Meaningless

Post by Age »

Agent Smith wrote: Tue May 09, 2023 11:49 am
Age wrote: Tue May 09, 2023 11:40 am
Agent Smith wrote: Tue May 09, 2023 8:44 am

As far as I'm concerned, Age, we must differentiate betwixt reason, whim, and impotence. :mrgreen:
Okay.
😌

I sense a great disturbance in the force. 😁
Okay.
User avatar
Dontaskme
Posts: 16940
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2016 2:07 pm
Location: Nowhere

Re: Reality is Both Meaningful and Meaningless

Post by Dontaskme »

Age wrote: Mon May 08, 2023 2:48 pm
Okay. BUT do 'you' THINK ANY one FULLY UNDERSTANDS 'this' here?
All any one needs to understand is that reality is Nondual..It is all one seamless infinity.

Everything else is just imagination, and once this is understood by no one, then the realisation dawns, that there's really nothing to understand anymore.

And life goes on same as it ever was, is and always will do, amen, forever infinitely.

Tis only the nameless naming the nameless names, since there is no such thing as a nameless name.

Tis only the meaningless naming the meaningless meanings, since there is no such thing as a meaningless meaning.
Age
Posts: 20198
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: Reality is Both Meaningful and Meaningless

Post by Age »

Dontaskme wrote: Wed May 10, 2023 10:49 am
Age wrote: Mon May 08, 2023 2:48 pm
Okay. BUT do 'you' THINK ANY one FULLY UNDERSTANDS 'this' here?
All any one needs to understand is that reality is Nondual..It is all one seamless infinity.
So, that there IS ONLY One, which IS PLAINLY OBVIOUS, is ALL ANY one NEEDS to UNDERSTAND, right?
Dontaskme wrote: Wed May 10, 2023 10:49 am Everything else is just imagination,
But there is NO ANY 'thing' "else'. So, the words 'everything else' is a MISNOMER.

There is however a part of thee One, which is sometimes known as a 'human brain', which, through another known 'thing' called thoughts, is able to conceptually separate the ONLY One into perceived parts and perceived events, only.

And, through 'this ability' of the One to be able to LEARN, UNDERSTAND, and REASON thy One Self, and through a 'thing' called and known as 'evolution', 'Life', Itself, is coming-to-KNOW thy 'Self', through and by thy parts.
Dontaskme wrote: Wed May 10, 2023 10:49 am
and once this is understood by no one,
But what the 'thing', known here as "dontaskme", calls 'no one' IS, JUST, 'Life', Itself. That IS; the one and ONLY One. Which, by the way, in what are sometimes known as the days when this was being written, HAS ALREADY COME-TO-KNOW, SEE, and UNDERSTAND ALL-THERE-IS, WHO and WHAT 'I' AM, EXACTLY.
Dontaskme wrote: Wed May 10, 2023 10:49 am
then the realisation dawns, that there's really nothing to understand anymore.
Does the 'one' known here as "dontaskme" BELIEVE that 'it' has ALREADY UNDERSTOOD ALL of the One?
Dontaskme wrote: Wed May 10, 2023 10:49 am
And life goes on same as it ever was, is and always will do, amen, forever infinitely.

Tis only the nameless naming the nameless names, since there is no such thing as a nameless name.
But it is ONLY a named part of the 'One Thing', known here as "dontasme", which BELIEVES and SAYS that 'I', thee One and ONLY, is 'nameless' AND 'naming' ALL 'the parts', EXCEPT 'the WHOLE'.
Dontaskme wrote: Wed May 10, 2023 10:49 am Tis only the meaningless naming the meaningless meanings, since there is no such thing as a meaningless meaning.
Here is ANOTHER example of SAYING just about ABSOLUTELY ANY 'thing', when one of those 'parts' known as 'human beings' is 'TRYING TO' PROVE true what 'it' ALREADY BELIEVES is true although 'it' has ABSOLUTELY NO PROOF AT ALL FOR.
popeye1945
Posts: 2130
Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2021 2:12 am

Re: Reality is Both Meaningful and Meaningless

Post by popeye1945 »

Eodnhoj7 wrote: Wed May 03, 2023 8:40 pm 1. Meaning is derived from one phenomenon being direct to another phenomenon.
2. Meaninglessness is the absence of one phenomenon being directed to another phenomenon.
3. If everything has meaning then all phenomenon are directed to a phenomenon beyond them.
4. If everything is without meaning then all phenomenon are not directed to a phenomenon beyond them.
5. Meaning is a phenomenon and as a phenomenon is directed towards itself as 'meaning means meaning' if everything has meaning.
6. If only directed towards itself then meaning is self-referential and without the necessary comparison for it to be something.
7. Meaning is thus meaningless as it is not directed towards anything beyond it.
8. 'Meaninglessness' means 'meaninglessness' thus follows the logic of points 6 and 7.
9. 'Meaninglessness' is without meaning thus self-negates leaving us with nothing other than meaning.
10. 'Meaning' and 'meaninglessness' both self-refute thus resulting in the other, this dichotomy leaves us with the absurdity of there both being meaning and meaninglessness.

1. Meaning is an extreme.
2. Meaninglessness is an extreme.
3. As extremes, and opposites, both cancel each other out thus leaving us with neither.
Meaning is particular to biological life; it has no relevance to anything else. The physical world in the absence of a conscious subject/life, is utterly meaningless. Meaning is what is experienced, and once experienced the subject then bestows that experience/knowledge/meaning upon a meaningless world. There is no taste but to a taster.
Eodnhoj7
Posts: 8595
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:18 am

Re: Reality is Both Meaningful and Meaningless

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

Age wrote: Sat May 06, 2023 11:28 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Fri May 05, 2023 8:00 pm
Harbal wrote: Wed May 03, 2023 10:13 pm

What a load of utter codswallop. :shock:
I didn't ask for your mental state. If you are lost on a point then say so and I will explain further.
I AM TOTALLY LOST on ABSOLUTELY EVERY 'point' here.

So, will you now EXPLAIN FURTHER?
1. To say something has "meaning" is to say one thing is directed towards another thing, i.e. A means B thus A is directed towards B. To say a thing is directed is to say it has movement and all things occur through movement as movement allow for relation and without relation a thing does not occur.

2. All things are composed of and compose things which have meaning, i.e. a car composes the relations of other things because it is directed towards a tree or parking lot with these things being defined by there relationship to the car, dually a car is composed of relations because what composes it (atoms and moving parts) are things that are directed towards each other.

3. 'Meaning' is a thing thus "meaning" is directed towards other things which have meaning thus 'meaning' is directed towards 'meaning'.

4. The phenomenon, or rather 'thing', that is meaning is directed towards itself thus is directed no where as there is nothing beyond it as only it exists and is without comparison required for distinction; meaning is thus meaningless.

5. In stating that "meaning is meaningless" we are observing the 'thing' or phenomenon of 'meaninglessness' mean itself, following the logic of points 4 and 5 respectively, thus 'meaningless' is negated as it is nothing. The negation of meaninglessness is meaning.

6. Both meaning and meaninglessness exist.
Eodnhoj7
Posts: 8595
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:18 am

Re: Reality is Both Meaningful and Meaningless

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

popeye1945 wrote: Wed May 10, 2023 11:19 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Wed May 03, 2023 8:40 pm 1. Meaning is derived from one phenomenon being direct to another phenomenon.
2. Meaninglessness is the absence of one phenomenon being directed to another phenomenon.
3. If everything has meaning then all phenomenon are directed to a phenomenon beyond them.
4. If everything is without meaning then all phenomenon are not directed to a phenomenon beyond them.
5. Meaning is a phenomenon and as a phenomenon is directed towards itself as 'meaning means meaning' if everything has meaning.
6. If only directed towards itself then meaning is self-referential and without the necessary comparison for it to be something.
7. Meaning is thus meaningless as it is not directed towards anything beyond it.
8. 'Meaninglessness' means 'meaninglessness' thus follows the logic of points 6 and 7.
9. 'Meaninglessness' is without meaning thus self-negates leaving us with nothing other than meaning.
10. 'Meaning' and 'meaninglessness' both self-refute thus resulting in the other, this dichotomy leaves us with the absurdity of there both being meaning and meaninglessness.

1. Meaning is an extreme.
2. Meaninglessness is an extreme.
3. As extremes, and opposites, both cancel each other out thus leaving us with neither.
Meaning is particular to biological life; it has no relevance to anything else. The physical world in the absence of a conscious subject/life, is utterly meaningless. Meaning is what is experienced, and once experienced the subject then bestows that experience/knowledge/meaning upon a meaningless world. There is no taste but to a taster.
And yet non-biological phenomenon are directed towards the manifestation of biological phenomenon, i.e. carbon results in a life form, thus meaning does not have to be an expression of consciousness unless we are to state that consciousness goes beyond biology.
Eodnhoj7
Posts: 8595
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:18 am

Re: Reality is Both Meaningful and Meaningless

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

Dontaskme wrote: Sun May 07, 2023 4:57 pm
Age wrote: Sat May 06, 2023 11:37 pm
To me, "eodnhoj7" is just fighting and 'arguing' for 'its' BELIEF here. Which is; the whole Universe IS ABSURD and CONTRADICTS Itself, and so to PROVE 'this BELIEF' absolutely true "eodnhoj7" writes the way 'it' does here.
Naming the Unnameable is an apparent Contradiction in this illusory Conception. (A Mental Conceptual Construction of Mind)
The unnameable is the ''knower'' and the named is the ''known'' ... both 'knower' and 'known' have to exist at the exact same time inseparably as one 'KNOWING' the only knowing there is.

The words 'meaning' and 'meaningless' appear as if contradictory, and yet both these seemingly opposites MUST exist at the exact same time together in superposition within the Knower to become Known. And there lies the law of Non-Contradiction. There are no Contradictions in nature, only Superpositions.

Also Age, maybe you ought to refrain from accusing other people of having beliefs, when you vehemently deny having beliefs yourself.

And yes, a beginningless, endless existence is absurd, because there is simply no room for it's conception. Rendering all concepts illusory.
If it exists it is relative. If it is relative it is contradictory. If it is contradictory it is absurd. No-thingness is beyond existence...nothing is beyond existence.
Eodnhoj7
Posts: 8595
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:18 am

Re: Reality is Both Meaningful and Meaningless

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

Agent Smith wrote: Mon May 08, 2023 4:05 am I believe Age hit the bullseye as regards what the OP asserts.

The OP's thesis, Age, if you're reading this, sets the stage, creates the perfect conditions as it were, for a certain kinda a philosophy that some find revolting while for others it's simply a way of life.
And yet both views exist thus leaving us with contradiction. Reality is both "what is" and "what is not".
popeye1945
Posts: 2130
Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2021 2:12 am

Re: Reality is Both Meaningful and Meaningless

Post by popeye1945 »

Eodnhoj7 wrote: Wed May 17, 2023 7:42 pm
popeye1945 wrote: Wed May 10, 2023 11:19 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Wed May 03, 2023 8:40 pm 1. Meaning is derived from one phenomenon being direct to another phenomenon.
2. Meaninglessness is the absence of one phenomenon being directed to another phenomenon.
3. If everything has meaning then all phenomenon are directed to a phenomenon beyond them.
4. If everything is without meaning then all phenomenon are not directed to a phenomenon beyond them.
5. Meaning is a phenomenon and as a phenomenon is directed towards itself as 'meaning means meaning' if everything has meaning.
6. If only directed towards itself then meaning is self-referential and without the necessary comparison for it to be something.
7. Meaning is thus meaningless as it is not directed towards anything beyond it.
8. 'Meaninglessness' means 'meaninglessness' thus follows the logic of points 6 and 7.
9. 'Meaninglessness' is without meaning thus self-negates leaving us with nothing other than meaning.
10. 'Meaning' and 'meaninglessness' both self-refute thus resulting in the other, this dichotomy leaves us with the absurdity of there both being meaning and meaninglessness.

1. Meaning is an extreme.
2. Meaninglessness is an extreme.
3. As extremes, and opposites, both cancel each other out thus leaving us with neither.
Meaning is particular to biological life; it has no relevance to anything else. The physical world in the absence of a conscious subject/life, is utterly meaningless. Meaning is what is experienced, and once experienced the subject then bestows that experience/knowledge/meaning upon a meaningless world. There is no taste but to a taster.
And yet non-biological phenomena are directed towards the manifestation of biological phenomena, i.e. Carbon results in a life form, thus meaning does not have to be an expression of consciousness unless we are to state that consciousness goes beyond biology.
Yes of course there is always speculations that consciousness is possibly a property of the cosmos, of elementary particles etc. A mind-stretching read is that of Albert North Whitehead, very difficult as free-ranging metaphysics. Just google him, he was a very prolific writer and philosopher/mathematician.
Post Reply