As long as True(L,x) remains uncomputable humanity may soon perish

What is the basis for reason? And mathematics?

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Eodnhoj7
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Re: As long as True(L,x) remains uncomputable humanity may soon perish

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

PeteOlcott wrote: Sat Apr 29, 2023 11:26 pm
Impenitent wrote: Sat Apr 29, 2023 10:59 pm as long as people want something for nothing, humanity may soon perish...

computations are luxuries

-Imp
I vehemently disagree. As it stands now very effective propaganda could unite 70% of the
population of a country in using nuclear weapons to right a misconstrued wrong.

This could cause nuclear Winter that starves 99% of the population to death and murders
the remaining 1% by some of the 99% just trying to get some food.
Can you compute, without unjustified axioms, why that is a bad thing?
PeteOlcott
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Re: As long as True(L,x) remains uncomputable humanity may soon perish

Post by PeteOlcott »

Eodnhoj7 wrote: Wed May 17, 2023 11:54 pm
PeteOlcott wrote: Sat Apr 29, 2023 10:25 pm Unless and until we make True(L, x) computable so that there is an objective way
to discern dangerous lies from Truth humanity remains at great an increasing risk.

This is the reason why we need to refute Tarski Undefinability and its analogs
(isomorphisms) such as Gödel's 1931 Incompleteness Theorem.
Can you compute objectivity without first defining it through uncomputable means? Can computation result in a dictionary? Can you compute choice when all other variables are equal?
That seems to be asking can you run a computer program that no one ever wrote and thus does not yet exist?
PeteOlcott
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Re: As long as True(L,x) remains uncomputable humanity may soon perish

Post by PeteOlcott »

Eodnhoj7 wrote: Wed May 17, 2023 11:55 pm
PeteOlcott wrote: Sat Apr 29, 2023 11:26 pm
Impenitent wrote: Sat Apr 29, 2023 10:59 pm as long as people want something for nothing, humanity may soon perish...

computations are luxuries

-Imp
I vehemently disagree. As it stands now very effective propaganda could unite 70% of the
population of a country in using nuclear weapons to right a misconstrued wrong.

This could cause nuclear Winter that starves 99% of the population to death and murders
the remaining 1% by some of the 99% just trying to get some food.
Can you compute, without unjustified axioms, why that is a bad thing?
We must have a set of axioms to give meaning to otherwise purely meaningless finite strings.
{cats are animals} is an axiom of English. We can encode the sum total of human knowledge
in these axioms and their relations to other axioms. To work correctly thus enabling a
consistently correct Truth predicate to be defined it must work the same way as Prolog.

True means has been proved in the system, false means the negation has been proved
in the system.

The Liar Paradox and every expression having pathological self-reference is rejected
by the system as not a truth bearer.
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Agent Smith
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Re: As long as True(L,x) remains uncomputable humanity may soon perish

Post by Agent Smith »

May be, PeteOlcott, if you could tell us what exactly it is that you're selling, some of us might just buy it! As far as I'm concerned your merchandise looks pretty cool. I'd happily give you a 4-star on the product review because Daisy, me dog, says "interesting scent" (bark, wag tail vigorously).
PeteOlcott
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Re: As long as True(L,x) remains uncomputable humanity may soon perish

Post by PeteOlcott »

Agent Smith wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 3:22 am May be, PeteOlcott, if you could tell us what exactly it is that you're selling, some of us might just buy it! As far as I'm concerned your merchandise looks pretty cool. I'd happily give you a 4-star on the product review because Daisy, me dog, says "interesting scent" (bark, wag tail vigorously).
A notion of analytical truth that is simply just the way that analytical truth really works that Tarski
and Gödel were totally confused about. The sound deductive inference model is the end-all be-all
of analytical truth. If an expression of language is neither stipulated to be true nor deduced from
expressions that are stipulated to be true then the expression is simply not true.

This is the way that Prolog works.

This simple notion of truth is the way that analytical truth really words and it eliminates both Tarski
undefinability and Gödel incompleteness.
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Agent Smith
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Re: As long as True(L,x) remains uncomputable humanity may soon perish

Post by Agent Smith »

PeteOlcott wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 4:54 am
Agent Smith wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 3:22 am May be, PeteOlcott, if you could tell us what exactly it is that you're selling, some of us might just buy it! As far as I'm concerned your merchandise looks pretty cool. I'd happily give you a 4-star on the product review because Daisy, me dog, says "interesting scent" (bark, wag tail vigorously).
A notion of analytical truth that is simply just the way that analytical truth really works that Tarski
and Gödel were totally confused about. The sound deductive inference model is the end-all be-all
of analytical truth. If an expression of language is neither stipulated to be true nor deduced from
expressions that are stipulated to be true then the expression is simply not true.

This is the way that Prolog works.

This simple notion of truth is the way that analytical truth really words and it eliminates both Tarski
undefinability and Gödel incompleteness.
Superb! I can picture you with one hand around Gödel's scrawny neck and the other one around Tarski's. I'm super-excited about where you're going with this, despite the annoying fact that I won't be able to grok the formal version of yer argument.

Math and Philosophia are intimately linked it seems and so much the better for it, oui? Just so you know, I don't like to contradict Gödel and his kind. It feels wrong somehow.
Skepdick
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Re: As long as True(L,x) remains uncomputable humanity may soon perish

Post by Skepdick »

PeteOlcott wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 4:54 am
Agent Smith wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 3:22 am May be, PeteOlcott, if you could tell us what exactly it is that you're selling, some of us might just buy it! As far as I'm concerned your merchandise looks pretty cool. I'd happily give you a 4-star on the product review because Daisy, me dog, says "interesting scent" (bark, wag tail vigorously).
A notion of analytical truth that is simply just the way that analytical truth really works that Tarski
and Gödel were totally confused about. The sound deductive inference model is the end-all be-all
of analytical truth. If an expression of language is neither stipulated to be true nor deduced from
expressions that are stipulated to be true then the expression is simply not true.

This is the way that Prolog works.
Olcott, you are a fucking idiot. And a liar.

Prolog is Turing-complete. Therefore there are Prolog expressions which do not terminate e.g there are Prolog expressions which are neither true nor false in Prolog itself.

Indeed such expressions are NOT true. But they are NOT false either!

Which is the whole damn point of undecidability!
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Agent Smith
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Re: As long as True(L,x) remains uncomputable humanity may soon perish

Post by Agent Smith »

Skepdick wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 8:13 am
PeteOlcott wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 4:54 am
Agent Smith wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 3:22 am May be, PeteOlcott, if you could tell us what exactly it is that you're selling, some of us might just buy it! As far as I'm concerned your merchandise looks pretty cool. I'd happily give you a 4-star on the product review because Daisy, me dog, says "interesting scent" (bark, wag tail vigorously).
A notion of analytical truth that is simply just the way that analytical truth really works that Tarski
and Gödel were totally confused about. The sound deductive inference model is the end-all be-all
of analytical truth. If an expression of language is neither stipulated to be true nor deduced from
expressions that are stipulated to be true then the expression is simply not true.

This is the way that Prolog works.
Olcott, you are a fucking idiot. And a liar.
🤔

I think PeteOlcott has something else in mind mon ami. Me not sure though. Let's see where he takes us.
PeteOlcott
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Re: As long as True(L,x) remains uncomputable humanity may soon perish

Post by PeteOlcott »

Agent Smith wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 7:40 am
PeteOlcott wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 4:54 am
Agent Smith wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 3:22 am May be, PeteOlcott, if you could tell us what exactly it is that you're selling, some of us might just buy it! As far as I'm concerned your merchandise looks pretty cool. I'd happily give you a 4-star on the product review because Daisy, me dog, says "interesting scent" (bark, wag tail vigorously).
A notion of analytical truth that is simply just the way that analytical truth really works that Tarski
and Gödel were totally confused about. The sound deductive inference model is the end-all be-all
of analytical truth. If an expression of language is neither stipulated to be true nor deduced from
expressions that are stipulated to be true then the expression is simply not true.

This is the way that Prolog works.

This simple notion of truth is the way that analytical truth really words and it eliminates both Tarski
undefinability and Gödel incompleteness.
Superb! I can picture you with one hand around Gödel's scrawny neck and the other one around Tarski's. I'm super-excited about where you're going with this, despite the annoying fact that I won't be able to grok the formal version of yer argument.

Math and Philosophia are intimately linked it seems and so much the better for it, oui? Just so you know, I don't like to contradict Gödel and his kind. It feels wrong somehow.
All of logic would be anchored in sound deductive inference.
Any expression that is unprovable from true premises simply become untrue,
thus the Liar Paradox is rejected and the principle of explosion ceases to exist.
We could stipulate that the Golbach conjecture has an unknown truth value.
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Agent Smith
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Re: As long as True(L,x) remains uncomputable humanity may soon perish

Post by Agent Smith »

PeteOlcott wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 2:34 pm
Agent Smith wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 7:40 am
PeteOlcott wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 4:54 am

A notion of analytical truth that is simply just the way that analytical truth really works that Tarski
and Gödel were totally confused about. The sound deductive inference model is the end-all be-all
of analytical truth. If an expression of language is neither stipulated to be true nor deduced from
expressions that are stipulated to be true then the expression is simply not true.

This is the way that Prolog works.

This simple notion of truth is the way that analytical truth really words and it eliminates both Tarski
undefinability and Gödel incompleteness.
Superb! I can picture you with one hand around Gödel's scrawny neck and the other one around Tarski's. I'm super-excited about where you're going with this, despite the annoying fact that I won't be able to grok the formal version of yer argument.

Math and Philosophia are intimately linked it seems and so much the better for it, oui? Just so you know, I don't like to contradict Gödel and his kind. It feels wrong somehow.
All of logic would be anchored in sound deductive inference.
Any expression that is unprovable from true premises simply become untrue,
thus the Liar Paradox is rejected and the principle of explosion ceases to exist.
We could stipulate that the Golbach conjecture has an unknown truth value.
Please download me here! :D
PeteOlcott
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Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2016 6:55 pm

Re: As long as True(L,x) remains uncomputable humanity may soon perish

Post by PeteOlcott »

Agent Smith wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 9:18 am
Skepdick wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 8:13 am
PeteOlcott wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 4:54 am

A notion of analytical truth that is simply just the way that analytical truth really works that Tarski
and Gödel were totally confused about. The sound deductive inference model is the end-all be-all
of analytical truth. If an expression of language is neither stipulated to be true nor deduced from
expressions that are stipulated to be true then the expression is simply not true.

This is the way that Prolog works.
Olcott, you are a fucking idiot. And a liar.
🤔

I think PeteOlcott has something else in mind mon ami. Me not sure though. Let's see where he takes us.
One of my reviewers is a mindless naysayer.
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Agent Smith
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Re: As long as True(L,x) remains uncomputable humanity may soon perish

Post by Agent Smith »

PeteOlcott wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 2:51 pm
Agent Smith wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 9:18 am
Skepdick wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 8:13 am
Olcott, you are a fucking idiot. And a liar.
🤔

I think PeteOlcott has something else in mind mon ami. Me not sure though. Let's see where he takes us.
One of my reviewers is a mindless naysayer.
No comment! Above me pay grade mon ami.
PeteOlcott
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Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2016 6:55 pm

Re: As long as True(L,x) remains uncomputable humanity may soon perish

Post by PeteOlcott »

Agent Smith wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 2:56 pm
PeteOlcott wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 2:51 pm
Agent Smith wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 9:18 am

🤔

I think PeteOlcott has something else in mind mon ami. Me not sure though. Let's see where he takes us.
One of my reviewers is a mindless naysayer.
No comment! Above me pay grade mon ami.
It is an objectively verified fact that when sound deductive inference becomes the foundation of
the notion of analytical truth that Tarski Undefinability, Gödel incompleteness and the principle
of explosion cannot possibly exist. Some people that cannot comprehend that denigrate it out of
their own ignorance.

One short coming of this system is that it only works on the subset of truth known as knowledge.
It would conclude that the Goldbach conjecture is not true on the basis that is no finite sequence
of deductive steps to show that it is true.

As such a system grows in its intelligence (like ChatGPT) it will be able to figure out on its own
that the Goldbach conjecture has an unknown truth value. When it becomes 10,000-fold more
intelligent than humans it may be able to answer the Goldbach conjecture by finding a finite
sequence of deductive steps.
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Agent Smith
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Re: As long as True(L,x) remains uncomputable humanity may soon perish

Post by Agent Smith »

PeteOlcott wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 3:56 pm
Agent Smith wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 2:56 pm
PeteOlcott wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 2:51 pm

One of my reviewers is a mindless naysayer.
No comment! Above me pay grade mon ami.
It is an objectively verified fact that when sound deductive inference becomes the foundation of
the notion of analytical truth that Tarski Undefinability, Gödel incompleteness and the principle
of explosion cannot possibly exist. Some people that cannot comprehend that denigrate it out of
their own ignorance.

One short coming of this system is that it only works on the subset of truth known as knowledge.
It would conclude that the Goldbach conjecture is not true on the basis that is no finite sequence
of deductive steps to show that it is true.

As such a system grows in its intelligence (like ChatGPT) it will be able to figure out on its own
that the Goldbach conjecture has an unknown truth value. When it becomes 10,000-fold more
intelligent than humans it may be able to answer the Goldbach conjecture by finding a finite
sequence of deductive steps.
My bafflement can be related simply as what happened to the other guy? He seems to have given us the slip!! Where could he have gone?! :? :?: :!: :?: :!:

I suggest you explore the territory using a grid so that you don't, you know, miss a spot.
Eodnhoj7
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Re: As long as True(L,x) remains uncomputable humanity may soon perish

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

PeteOlcott wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 3:06 am
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Wed May 17, 2023 11:54 pm
PeteOlcott wrote: Sat Apr 29, 2023 10:25 pm Unless and until we make True(L, x) computable so that there is an objective way
to discern dangerous lies from Truth humanity remains at great an increasing risk.

This is the reason why we need to refute Tarski Undefinability and its analogs
(isomorphisms) such as Gödel's 1931 Incompleteness Theorem.
Can you compute objectivity without first defining it through uncomputable means? Can computation result in a dictionary? Can you compute choice when all other variables are equal?
That seems to be asking can you run a computer program that no one ever wrote and thus does not yet exist?
And you would require a potential computer program beyond that one, and beyond that one....so on to infinity. This never ending potential always requires the program as being dependent on something which is not a program until the new program emerges.
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