A contradiction, I think, between "gender is a social construct" and trans-ness

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Consul
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Re: A contradiction, I think, between "gender is a social construct" and trans-ness

Post by Consul »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Fri Apr 21, 2023 8:11 pm 'The 'trans' movement is a male sex movement.
There are quite a few male trans-activists who aren't even trans themselves.
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Fri Apr 21, 2023 8:11 pmA movement to 'normalise' sexual deviancy and eradicate the concept of womanhood. It's the ultimate misogyny. The 'trans' movement doesn't care about children. Children are nothing more than political tools and sex objects to them.
The ideology behind all this is postmodern Queer Theory, whose express intention is to "deconstruct", to disrupt/dismantle/destroy traditional sociocultural normality in all its forms. Interestingly, many leading queer theorists are women.
"The Fairy Godmothers of Queer Theory
Queer Theory evolved out of a postmodern view of sex, gender, and sexuality. Its three founding figures were Gayle Rubin, Judith Butler, and Eve Kosofsky Sedgwick, and they drew heavily upon Foucault to lay the cornerstones of queer Theory in the mid-1980s."

(Pluckrose, Helen, James Lindsay, and Rebecca Christiansen. Social (In)Justice. Durham, NC: Pitchstone, 2022. p. 82)

"[Q]ueer Theory is fundamentally different from the liberal feminism and LGBT activism that came before it. The success of universal liberal approaches to freeing sexual minorities and gender-nonconforming people contradict queer Theory’s claim that theirs is the only way. The liberal activism and thought that predates Theory focused on changing prejudiced attitudes by appealing to our shared humanity, and to universal liberal principles. Trans activism could also benefit from this, if queer Theory weren’t actively trying to subvert universal liberalism.

Instead, queer Theory aims to modify or unmake our concepts of sex, gender, and sexuality, which alienates most members of the society it wants to change. Queer activists who rely on queer Theory tend to act with surprising entitlement and aggression by ridiculing mainstream sexualities and genders and depicting them as backward. People generally don’t appreciate being told that their sex, gender, and sexuality aren’t real, or are wrong, or bad—you would think queer Theorists would appreciate this better than anyone."

(Pluckrose, Helen, James Lindsay, and Rebecca Christiansen. Social (In)Justice. Durham, NC: Pitchstone, 2022. p. 92)

"Queer Theory is about freedom from the normal, especially when it comes to gender and sexuality. It says that oppression happens every time language constructs a sense of what is “normal” by defining categories—such as sex (male and female), gender (masculine and feminine), sexuality (straight, gay, lesbian, bisexual, and so on)—and slotting people into them. These seemingly straightforward concepts are seen as oppressive, if not violent, and so the main objective of queer Theory is to examine, question, and subvert them in order to break them down.

To do this, queer Theory uses the postmodern knowledge principle—which rejects the possibility that an objective reality is attainable—and the postmodern political principle—which sees society as structured in unjust systems of power. Queer Theory’s ultimate purpose is to identify the ways linguistic categories create oppression, and to disrupt them. It also uses the postmodern themes of the power of language (language creates the categories, enforces them, and scripts people into them) and the blurring of boundaries (the boundaries are arbitrary and oppressive, and can be erased by blurring them).

Queer Theory values incoherence, illogic, and unintelligibility as tools to flout the norm in favor of the “queer,” which it proudly calls an “identity without an essence.” It’s vague by design and largely irrelevant in the real world except through social erosion, but it has profoundly influenced the development of postmodern Theory into its more recent applied forms, such as gender studies, trans activism, disability studies, and fat studies."

(Pluckrose, Helen, James Lindsay, and Rebecca Christiansen. Social (In)Justice. Durham, NC: Pitchstone, 2022. pp. 71-2)

"Freedom from the Normal:
Queer Theory is about liberation from the normal, especially where it comes to norms of gender and sexuality. This is because it regards the very existence of categories of sex, gender, and sexuality to be oppressive. Because queer Theory derives directly from postmodernism, it is radically skeptical that these categories are based in any biological reality. Instead, it sees them quite artificially—wholly as a product of how we talk about those issues. It thus ignores biology nearly completely (or places it downstream of socialization) and focuses upon them as social constructions perpetuated in language. This does little to encourage its accessibility with most people, who rightly see it as being quite mad.

Queer Theory presumes that oppression follows from categorization, which arises every time language constructs a sense of what is “normal” by producing and maintaining rigid categories of sex (male and female), gender (masculine and feminine), and sexuality (straight, gay, lesbian, bisexual, and so on) and “scripting” people into them. These seemingly straightforward concepts are seen as oppressive, if not violent, and so the main objective of queer Theory is to examine, question, and subvert them, in order to break them down.

This is all done in ways that explicitly rely on the postmodern knowledge principle—which rejects the possibility that an objective reality is attainable—and the postmodern political principle—which understands society to be structured in unjust systems of power that reinforce and perpetuate themselves. Queer Theory makes use of these to satisfy its ultimate purpose, which is to identify and make visible the ways in which the linguistic existence of these categories create oppression, and to disrupt them. In doing so, it exhibits an almost unmodified manifestation of the postmodern themes of the power of language—language creates the categories, enforces them, and scripts people into them—and the blurring of boundaries—the boundaries are arbitrary, oppressive, and can be erased by blurring them into apparent absurdity. Together with its goal of subverting or rejecting anything considered normal and innate in favor of the “queer,” this can make queer Theory frustratingly difficult to understand, since it values incoherence, illogic, and intelligibility. This in turn makes it obscure by design and largely irrelevant, except to itself. Nevertheless, it has been profoundly influential on the development of postmodern Theory into its more recent applied forms, particularly in domains like gender studies, trans activism, disability studies, and fat studies."

(Pluckrose, Helen, and James Lindsay. Cynical Theories: How Activist Scholarship Made Everything about Race, Gender, and Identity; and Why This Harms Everybody. Durham, NC: Pitchstone, 2020. pp. 89-90)

"Queer Theory is dominated by the problematizing of discourses—how things are spoken about—the deconstruction of categories, and a profound skepticism of science. Following Foucault, it frequently examines history and points out that categories and discourses that were accepted as obviously sensible or true in their own time are not accepted as such now. This is used to argue that the categories that seem so obvious to us now—male/female, masculine/feminine, heterosexual/homosexual—are also socially constructed by dominant discourses. This, to the queer Theorist, is reason to believe not only that we will be able to think and speak about and categorize sex, gender, and sexuality differently in the future, but also that we may consider such categories largely arbitrary and nearly infinitely malleable.

This is where the word queer comes in. “Queer” refers to anything that falls outside binaries (such as male/female, masculine/feminine, and heterosexual/homosexual) and to a way of challenging the links between sex, gender, and sexuality. For example, it questions expectations that women will be feminine and sexually attracted to men, and it also disputes that one must fall into a category of male or female, masculine or feminine, or any particular sexuality, or that any of these categories should be considered stable. To be queer allows someone to be simultaneously male, female, or neither, to present as masculine, feminine, neuter, or any mixture of the three, and to adopt any sexuality—and to change any of these identities at any time or to deny that they mean anything in the first place. This is not merely a means to individual expression but also a political statement about the socially constructed “realities” of sex, gender, and sexuality.

Like the other postmodern Theories, queer Theory is a political project, and its aim is to disrupt any expectations that people should fit into a binary position with regard to sex or gender, and to undermine any assumptions that sex or gender are related to or dictate sexuality. Instead, they should defy simple categorization. In general, then, queer Theory’s political agenda is to challenge what is called normativity—that some things are more common or regular to the human condition, thus more normative from a social (thus moral) perspective, than others. The main industry of queer Theorists is to intentionally conflate two meanings of “normative,” and deliberately make strategic use of the moral understanding of the term to contrive problems with its descriptive meaning. Normativity is considered pejoratively by queer Theorists and is often preceded by a prefix like hetero- (straight), cis- (gender and sex match), or thin- (not obese). By challenging normativity in all its manifestations, queer Theory therefore seeks to unite the minority groups who fall outside of normative categories under a single banner: “queer.” This project is understood to be liberating for people who do not fall neatly into sex, gender, and sexuality categories, along with those who wouldn’t if they hadn’t been socialized into them and weren’t constrained by social enforcement. It produces a de facto coalition of minority gender and sexual identities under the appropriately unstable set of acronyms that tend to begin with LGBTQ."

(Pluckrose, Helen, and James Lindsay. Cynical Theories: How Activist Scholarship Made Everything about Race, Gender, and Identity; and Why This Harms Everybody. Durham, NC: Pitchstone, 2020. pp. 93-4)
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Re: A contradiction, I think, between "gender is a social construct" and trans-ness

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Consul wrote: Fri Apr 21, 2023 9:33 pm
"…Queer Theory values incoherence, illogic, and unintelligibility as tools to flout the norm in favor of the “queer,” which it proudly calls an “identity without an essence.” It’s vague by design and largely irrelevant in the real world except through social erosion, but it has profoundly influenced the development of postmodern Theory into its more recent applied forms, such as gender studies, trans activism, disability studies, and fat studies."

(Pluckrose, Helen, James Lindsay, and Rebecca Christiansen. Social (In)Justice. Durham, NC: Pitchstone, 2022. pp. 71-2)
"An identity without an essence"—here's the full quotation:
"As the very word implies, "queer" does not name some natural kind or refer to some determinate object; it acquires its meaning from its oppositional relation to the norm. Queer is by definition whatever is at odds with the normal, the legitimate, the dominant. There is nothing in particular to which it necessarily refers. It is an identity without an essence. "Queer," then, demarcates not a positivity but a positionality vis-à-vis the normative—a positionality that is not restricted to lesbians and gay men but is in fact available to anyone who is or who feels marginalized because of her or his sexual practices: it could include some married couples without children, for example, or even (who knows?) some married couples with children—with, perhaps, very naughty children. "Queer," in any case, does not designate a class of already objectified pathologies or perversions; rather, it describes a horizon of possibility whose precise extent and heterogeneous scope cannot in principle be delimited in advance. It is from the eccentric positionality occupied by the queer subject that it may become possible to envision a variety of possibilities for reordering the relations among sexual behaviors, erotic identities, constructions of gender, forms of knowledge, regimes of enunciation, logics of representation, modes of self-constitution, and practices of community—for restructuring, that is, the relations among power, truth, and desire."

(Halperin, David M. Saint Foucault: Towards a Gay Hagiography. New York: Oxford University Press, 1995. p. 62)
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Re: A contradiction, I think, between "gender is a social construct" and trans-ness

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Consul wrote: Fri Apr 21, 2023 9:41 pm
"…Queer is by definition whatever is at odds with the normal, the legitimate, the dominant.…"

(Halperin, David M. Saint Foucault: Towards a Gay Hagiography. New York: Oxford University Press, 1995. p. 62)
Pedophilia is pretty queer then. :|
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Re: A contradiction, I think, between "gender is a social construct" and trans-ness

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vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Fri Apr 21, 2023 8:29 pmNo one is born with the 'wrong body'. If someone thinks that about themselves then they are mentally ill and need psychological help, not puberty blockers and mutilation.
Genuine gender/sex dysphoria is a rare but real psychological phenomenon that must be taken seriously; but it doesn't follow that in the case of kids or teens suffering from it "puberty blockers and mutilation" are the best therapeutic treatment.

Here's a sensible voice—Abigail Shrier—who opposes the current transgender hype, which particularly affects girls in a negative way: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWbxIFC0Q2o
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Re: A contradiction, I think, between "gender is a social construct" and trans-ness

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Consul wrote: Fri Apr 21, 2023 9:55 pm
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Fri Apr 21, 2023 8:29 pmNo one is born with the 'wrong body'. If someone thinks that about themselves then they are mentally ill and need psychological help, not puberty blockers and mutilation.
Genuine gender/sex dysphoria is a rare but real psychological phenomenon that must be taken seriously; but it doesn't follow that in the case of kids or teens suffering from it "puberty blockers and mutilation" are the best therapeutic treatment.

Here's a sensible voice—Abigail Shrier—who opposes the current transgender hype, which particularly affects girls in a negative way: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWbxIFC0Q2o
My guess is it's really hitting gay boys hard. It's a fad. If you feel not like a boy then you are trans. So, you get operations and hormone blockers. You are not old enough to consent to sex, but you are old enough to demand that your genitals are removed/remade. Later many boys settle on, yes, they are male, but gay. The gender dysphoria is settled without bloodshed. It's violence on gays with their underage 'consent'.

They can't make a decision to sleep with an adult, but they can decide to have their genitals cut off.

(and just in case anyone misunderstands, this is not some backward attempt to defend pedophilia)
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Re: A contradiction, I think, between "gender is a social construct" and trans-ness

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Skepdick wrote: Fri Apr 21, 2023 8:39 pm The very attempt to define "define" introduces additional undefined terms which themselves require definition.
And in attempting to define the undefined terms used in the definition of "define" you introduce even more undefined terms - it's a combinatorial explosion.
The "define it" game is a stupid game.
There are sufficient descriptions/definitions for particular purposes. The end.
Outside logic and mathematics, perfect semantic precision may be an unrealizable ideal; but it doesn't follow that we should never try to define our concepts/terms as precisely as possible.
"We can never expect to make our words perfectly precise. For in order to make one word more precise, we must use other words that are themselves to some extent vague, and that vagueness will infect our clarifications. Vagueness can sometimes be reduced, but it can never be eliminated, from either language or thought. Efforts at clarification should be concentrated where there is a special need for it. The need may be either theoretical or practical."

(Williamson, Timothy. Doing Philosophy: From Common Curiosity to Logical Reasoning. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2018. p. 42)
In the gender vs. sex debate there is a special need for conceptual clarification!
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Re: A contradiction, I think, between "gender is a social construct" and trans-ness

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Skepdick wrote: Fri Apr 21, 2023 9:02 pm
Consul wrote: Fri Apr 21, 2023 8:54 pm No, I'm not wrong! The existence of various kinds of intersex conditions doesn't refute my statement, because all non-sterile human intersexuals produce either ova or spermia.
Then why not use terminology such as ovulator and spermiator? Such terminology would certainly bring the gametes into focus and would be far more informative than nonsense such as "male" and "female".
There's nothing wrong with calling men sperm-makers and women ova-makers (egg-makers), since that's what they (normally) are (during some period of their life cycle).
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Re: A contradiction, I think, between "gender is a social construct" and trans-ness

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Consul wrote: Fri Apr 21, 2023 10:08 pm Outside logic and mathematics, perfect semantic precision may be an unrealizable ideal; but it doesn't follow that we should never try to define our concepts/terms as precisely as possible.
*sigh* It's like talking to a brick wall.

Go ahead and define the terms "precisely" and "define" as precisely as possible.
Consul wrote: Fri Apr 21, 2023 10:08 pm In the gender vs. sex debate there is a special need for conceptual clarification!
Go ahead and tell us (as precisely as possible) how much conceptual clarity is necessary.
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Re: A contradiction, I think, between "gender is a social construct" and trans-ness

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Consul wrote: Fri Apr 21, 2023 8:54 pm
Sculptor wrote: Fri Apr 21, 2023 8:19 pm
Consul wrote: Fri Apr 21, 2023 7:05 pmIn anisogametic species (like homo sapiens), sex is simply binary in the sense that there are exactly two types of gametes involved in sexual reproduction: ova & spermia.
No you are simply wrong. There are children born as girls in a very literal sense and transform into boys in puberty; There are interesex, intermediate sex and hermaphrodites too.
No, I'm not wrong! The existence of various kinds of intersex conditions doesn't refute my statement, because all non-sterile human intersexuals produce either ova or spermia. No kind of intersex condition constitutes a third sex, because it doesn't involve the production of any third type of gametes other than ova or spermia. There are extremely rare cases of intersexuals with both ovarian and testicular tissue in their bodies, but none of the non-sterile ones among them are known to be genuine simultaneous hermaphrodites, because they produce either ova or sperm, and not both.

By the way, simultaneous hermaphroditism isn't the only form of it, because there is also sequential hermaphroditism, where an organism is first male and then female, or vice versa. However, sequential hermaphroditism doesn't occur in our species homo sapiens; and simultaneous hermaphroditism isn't known to occur therein either.
"A hermaphrodite is an individual that produces functional male gametes and female gametes (sex cells) during its lifetime."

(Avise, John C. Hermaphroditism: A Primer on the Biology, Ecology, and Evolution of Dual Sexuality. New York: Columbia University Press, 2011. p. 1)
You are just kidding yourself, through ignorance
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Re: A contradiction, I think, between "gender is a social construct" and trans-ness

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Consul wrote: Fri Apr 21, 2023 10:15 pm There's nothing wrong with calling men sperm-makers and women ova-makers (egg-makers), since that's what they (normally) are (during some period of their life cycle).
That's what they are; or that's what they do?

Some conceptual clarity is needed here on why you think this particular bodily function determines identity.
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Re: A contradiction, I think, between "gender is a social construct" and trans-ness

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''Sexual fetish enthusiasts within the Ministry of Justice are calling on their trade union to set up a staff network for BDSM, to campaign for their rights and to set up training courses on consent. It goes on to state that 'as a minority group who are discriminated against they should have a support group in PCS', that 'BDSMers should have equal rights and protection as other discriminated against groups have', and 'PCS should support and campaign for their rights'.
And it calls on the union's ruling council 'to establish a support network for BDSMers', to 'campaign for their rights' and put forward a similar motion to the conference of the TUC, the umbrella organisation for Britain's trade unions.''

I have no clue what some of these acronyms are, and can't be bothered looking them up.
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Re: A contradiction, I think, between "gender is a social construct" and trans-ness

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Iwannaplato wrote: Fri Apr 21, 2023 10:00 pm My guess is it's really hitting gay boys hard. It's a fad. If you feel not like a boy then you are trans. So, you get operations and hormone blockers. You are not old enough to consent to sex, but you are old enough to demand that your genitals are removed/remade. Later many boys settle on, yes, they are male, but gay. The gender dysphoria is settled without bloodshed. It's violence on gays with their underage 'consent'.
They can't make a decision to sleep with an adult, but they can decide to have their genitals cut off.
(and just in case anyone misunderstands, this is not some backward attempt to defend pedophilia)
It's hitting both gay boys and lesbian girls hard. Parents, teachers, and friends must tell them that feeling feminine isn't the same as being female, and that feeling masculine isn't the same as being male. A "gender-nonconforming" girl doesn't have to become a boy in order to become a tomboy. Jack Halberstam wrote a book titled "Female Masculinity". Correspondingly, there is also such a thing as male femininity. It's bleeding obvious that there are masculine females and feminine males in addition to feminine females and masculine males.

For example, a female detransitioner, i.e. an ex-transman who now wants to live as a woman again, who has undergone testosterone treatment, double mastectomy, and hysterectomy will have to spend the rest of her life as an infertile person with a masculine face, a masculine voice, without (natural) breasts, but with vaginal atrophy and clitoromegaly (abnormally enlarged clitoris). How can she ever become happy again as a woman?
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Re: A contradiction, I think, between "gender is a social construct" and trans-ness

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I would love to know, from our charming resident wokie, what the fuck men with a fetish for wearing nappies and sucking on dummies has to do with the very rare phenomenon of babies born with indeterminate genitalia because something has gone wrong in their foetal development.

''The sex of humans is determined from fertilization, that is, as soon as it becomes a zygote: if it is XX, it will be a female, while, if it is XY, a male. However, at the beginning, human embryos have the precursors of both female and male gonads.

Taking this into account, if there is no Y chromosome, the embryo will proceed with the development of Müllerian ducts (which give rise to the ovaries). Also, when there is no Y chromosome, the embryo lacks the SRY region: the sex determining region.

To sum up: it is true that one could say that, in mammals, the initial plan for all embryos is female, which is only altered if the SRY region is present.''

This is biology. There is no evidence to support a 'female essence' being miraculously injected into a male foetus during development. That is in the realm of whacko religious mind-fuckery.
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Re: A contradiction, I think, between "gender is a social construct" and trans-ness

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Skepdick wrote: Fri Apr 21, 2023 10:27 pm
Consul wrote: Fri Apr 21, 2023 10:15 pm There's nothing wrong with calling men sperm-makers and women ova-makers (egg-makers), since that's what they (normally) are (during some period of their life cycle).
That's what they are; or that's what they do?
Some conceptual clarity is needed here on why you think this particular bodily function determines identity.
If making sperm is what you do, then you are a sperm-maker.

Strictly speaking, "sperm-/egg-maker" is a phase sortal, because males and females don't make sperm/eggs during all stages of their life.
"A phase sortal is a sortal (which for brevity we can think of as a 'count noun', such as 'cat'—you can count cats, but you cannot count, say, water or wisdom) that applies to an object only for part of its existence. So 'kitten' is a phase sortal—it applies to a cat for only part of its existence—as are 'child' and 'pensioner'."

("Phase Sortal." In Metaphysics: The Key Concepts, edited by Helen Beebee, Nikk Effingham, and Philip Goff. Abingdon: Routledge, 2011. p. 162)
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Re: A contradiction, I think, between "gender is a social construct" and trans-ness

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Skepdick wrote: Fri Apr 21, 2023 10:25 pmGo ahead and define the terms "precisely" and "define" as precisely as possible.
See: viewtopic.php?p=636796#p636796
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