Humans are Intricately Part & Parcel of Reality

Should you think about your duty, or about the consequences of your actions? Or should you concentrate on becoming a good person?

Moderators: AMod, iMod

Peter Holmes
Posts: 3710
Joined: Tue Jul 18, 2017 3:53 pm

Re: Humans are Intricately Part & Parcel of Reality

Post by Peter Holmes »

Here's the empiricist skepticism at work in VA's and popeye's models.

P1 Knowledge comes from experience.
P2 Experience is necessarily first person and subjective.
C Therefore, knowledge is first person and subjective.

Implication. What we call objectivity - knowledge of facts - can come only from intersubjective consensus opinion.

Challenges to the premises - and to any other epistemological foundationalism - are well-known and ignored. For example, what experience can provide the knowledge that knowledge comes from experience?
Iwannaplato
Posts: 6591
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 10:55 pm

Re: Humans are Intricately Part & Parcel of Reality

Post by Iwannaplato »

popeye1945 wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 1:41 pm All fact/truths are biologically dependent. There is only one way to know the world and that is on a personally subjective level. A collective statement of personal subjective experiences tends to have more authority than individual subjective experiences because the individual is more likely to be in error than the collective.
It sounds like you have a way to check the accuracy of individual conclusions and collective ones and see that the latter includes less errors. How did you decide that this is the case? Might it not be one of your own individual subjective errors?
There is only one way to know the world and that is on a personally subjective level.
You are never the collective, it would seem. Not even when you think you are following the collective as your authority. I mean, you might not be because....
There is only one way to know the world and that is on a personally subjective level.
popeye1945
Posts: 2119
Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2021 2:12 am

Re: Humans are Intricately Part & Parcel of Reality

Post by popeye1945 »

Iwannaplato wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 2:51 pm
popeye1945 wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 1:41 pm All fact/truths are biologically dependent. There is only one way to know the world and that is on a personally subjective level. A collective statement of personal subjective experiences tends to have more authority than individual subjective experiences because the individual is more likely to be in error than the collective.
It sounds like you have a way to check the accuracy of individual conclusions and collective ones and see that the latter includes less errors. How did you decide that this is the case? Might it not be one of your own individual subjective errors?
There is only one way to know the world and that is on a personally subjective level.
You are never the collective, it would seem. Not even when you think you are following the collective as your authority. I mean, you might not be because....
There is only one way to know the world and that is on a personally subjective level.
Most people respect educated authority, the sciences, the humanities etc, it is not a personal insight.
Iwannaplato
Posts: 6591
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 10:55 pm

Re: Humans are Intricately Part & Parcel of Reality

Post by Iwannaplato »

popeye1945 wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 3:09 pm
Iwannaplato wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 2:51 pm
popeye1945 wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 1:41 pm All fact/truths are biologically dependent. There is only one way to know the world and that is on a personally subjective level. A collective statement of personal subjective experiences tends to have more authority than individual subjective experiences because the individual is more likely to be in error than the collective.
It sounds like you have a way to check the accuracy of individual conclusions and collective ones and see that the latter includes less errors. How did you decide that this is the case? Might it not be one of your own individual subjective errors?
There is only one way to know the world and that is on a personally subjective level.
You are never the collective, it would seem. Not even when you think you are following the collective as your authority. I mean, you might not be because....
There is only one way to know the world and that is on a personally subjective level.
Most people respect educated authority, the sciences, the humanities etc, it is not a personal insight.
My point wasn't that only you believe this. I am black boxing that. I was pointing out that since....
There is only one way to know the world and that is on a personally subjective level.
your conclusion that
the individual is more likely to be in error than the collective.
is your personal subjective opinion.
Perhaps you are correct that others have the same opinion. Perhaps not. Perhaps you and they are right about collective conclusions being more accurate. Perhaps not.

I am simply following the consequences of what you are saying. In the end it all boils down to...
There is only one way to know the world and that is on a personally subjective level.
popeye1945
Posts: 2119
Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2021 2:12 am

Re: Humans are Intricately Part & Parcel of Reality

Post by popeye1945 »

Yes, everything henges on subjective consciousness.
Veritas Aequitas
Posts: 12243
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:41 am

Re: Humans are Intricately Part & Parcel of Reality

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

popeye1945 wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 1:41 pm All fact/truths are biologically dependent.
There is only one way to know the world and that is on a personally subjective level.
For any rational person, 'first-person-experience' [personal subjective experience] as critical to realize and know reality is SO obvious, it is a waste of time to harp on it.

However, personal subjective experience, is not the only way to know the world.
A collective statement of personal subjective experiences tends to have more authority than individual subjective experiences because the individual is more likely to be in error than the collective. Perhaps the individual's biology is in some way diminished, leading to error. The collective is simply a safeguard and is not itself infallible.
In general All humans interacts in groups - 'No man is an Island ..'
It is within these COMPLEX interactions [via various FSKs] that they inter-influence each other and groups to enable the realization the emerging reality by the individuals and groups.

This is the reason I emphasized so much in human-based FSKs or FSRs, i.e. Framework and System of Knowledge or Reality.
Note 'human-based' thus the implication of 'biology'.
Veritas Aequitas
Posts: 12243
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:41 am

Re: Humans are Intricately Part & Parcel of Reality

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Peter Holmes wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 2:46 pm Here's the empiricist skepticism at work in VA's and popeye's models.

P1 Knowledge comes from experience.
P2 Experience is necessarily first person and subjective.
C Therefore, knowledge is first person and subjective.

Implication. What we call objectivity - knowledge of facts - can come only from intersubjective consensus opinion.

Challenges to the premises - and to any other epistemological foundationalism - are well-known and ignored. For example, what experience can provide the knowledge that knowledge comes from experience?
Strawman!!
I do not agree with your strawman syllogism above.

Challenges ignored??
I have countered your views, but you have ignored them.
You're the coward.

As I had argued,
There are two senses of what is objectivity.
Your sense of 'objectivity' which is based on philosophical realism is groundless, empty, nonsensical and illusory.

PH: What we call objectivity - knowledge of facts - can come only from intersubjective consensus opinion.
You are merely whining, complaining and blabbering on the above, with ignorance, dogmatism and shallowness of knowledge.

I do not simply claim [your strawman] " ... can come only from intersubjective consensus opinion."

What I have claimed is this;
All facts, truth, knowledge and their related objectivity are conditioned upon a human-based FSK which comprised of a complex set of conditions and processes tracing back to the Big Bang 13.7 billions year ago.
One of the feature of a human-based FSK objectivity is intersubjective consensus thus a collective realization of the FSK-facts [not your mystical facts].

What carry the most weight re the human-based FSK fact is this;
"a complex set of conditions and processes tracing back to the Big Bang 13.7 billions year ago"
which you are unable to comprehend [which is your own human nature].
popeye1945
Posts: 2119
Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2021 2:12 am

Re: Humans are Intricately Part & Parcel of Reality

Post by popeye1945 »

You are fixated on a system, but the knowledge of any system is dependent upon the subjective consciousness of a subject; a system is an object which we can know subjectively, all knowing is subjective knowing, there is NO other form of knowing.
Veritas Aequitas
Posts: 12243
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:41 am

Re: Humans are Intricately Part & Parcel of Reality

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

popeye1945 wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 3:34 am You are fixated on a system, but the knowledge of any system is dependent upon the subjective consciousness of a subject; a system is an object which we can know subjectively, all knowing is subjective knowing, there is NO other form of knowing.
Yes, I am fixated on a system.

Do you understand 'System Theory' at all?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systems_theory

All of reality is a system with sub-systems.
Even individuals are comprised of systems and sub-systems.
thus systematicity precedes individual subjectivity,
i.e. no systems, no individual subjects.

So,
system is an object which we can know subjectively [fundamentally systematically], all knowing is subjective [systematic] knowing, there is NO other form of knowing [systematically].
popeye1945
Posts: 2119
Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2021 2:12 am

Re: Humans are Intricately Part & Parcel of Reality

Post by popeye1945 »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 3:37 am
popeye1945 wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 3:34 am You are fixated on a system, but the knowledge of any system is dependent upon the subjective consciousness of a subject; a system is an object which we can know subjectively, all knowing is subjective knowing, there is NO other form of knowing.
Yes, I am fixated on a system.

Do you understand 'System Theory' at all?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systems_theory

All of reality is a system with sub-systems.
Even individuals are comprised of systems and sub-systems.
thus systematicity precedes individual subjectivity,
i.e. no systems, no individual subjects.

So,
system is an object which we can know subjectively [fundamentally systematically], all knowing is subjective [systematic] knowing, there is NO other form of knowing [systematically].
The difference in systems is the biological system is a conscious system, and what it is conscious of is object, the outer world of systems is known through one's biological consciousness, as a biological readout, meaning a biological interpretation.
popeye1945
Posts: 2119
Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2021 2:12 am

Re: Humans are Intricately Part & Parcel of Reality

Post by popeye1945 »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 3:13 am
popeye1945 wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 1:41 pm All fact/truths are biologically dependent.
There is only one way to know the world and that is on a personally subjective level.
For any rational person, 'first-person-experience' [personal subjective experience] as critical to realize and know reality is SO obvious, it is a waste of time to harp on it.

However, personal subjective experience, is not the only way to know the world.
A collective statement of personal subjective experiences tends to have more authority than individual subjective experiences because the individual is more likely to be in error than the collective. Perhaps the individual's biology is in some way diminished, leading to error. The collective is simply a safeguard and is not itself infallible.
In general All humans interacts in groups - 'No man is an Island ..'
It is within these COMPLEX interactions [via various FSKs] that they inter-influence each other and groups to enable the realization the emerging reality by the individuals and groups.

This is the reason I emphasized so much in human-based FSKs or FSRs, i.e. Framework and System of Knowledge or Reality.
Note 'human-based' thus the implication of 'biology'.
I think your just playing with semantics here making things more complicated than necessary. To the individual truth/fact is experience, to the group it is the agreement of a multitude of personal experiences. If you wish to continue to go around in circle with this, I'll bow out here.
Veritas Aequitas
Posts: 12243
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:41 am

Re: Humans are Intricately Part & Parcel of Reality

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

popeye1945 wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 4:05 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 3:13 am
popeye1945 wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 1:41 pm All fact/truths are biologically dependent.
There is only one way to know the world and that is on a personally subjective level.
For any rational person, 'first-person-experience' [personal subjective experience] as critical to realize and know reality is SO obvious, it is a waste of time to harp on it.

However, personal subjective experience, is not the only way to know the world.
A collective statement of personal subjective experiences tends to have more authority than individual subjective experiences because the individual is more likely to be in error than the collective. Perhaps the individual's biology is in some way diminished, leading to error. The collective is simply a safeguard and is not itself infallible.
In general All humans interacts in groups - 'No man is an Island ..'
It is within these COMPLEX interactions [via various FSKs] that they inter-influence each other and groups to enable the realization the emerging reality by the individuals and groups.

This is the reason I emphasized so much in human-based FSKs or FSRs, i.e. Framework and System of Knowledge or Reality.
Note 'human-based' thus the implication of 'biology'.
I think your just playing with semantics here making things more complicated than necessary. To the individual truth/fact is experience, to the group it is the agreement of a multitude of personal experiences. If you wish to continue to go around in circle with this, I'll bow out here.
It is not 'semantics'.
It is fundamentally epistemological.

What is foundational to my views re reality is "system" which is very critical.
Every [or almost] post of mine in this section leverage of 'system' theory, thus my FSK or Framework and System of Knowledge [FSK] or Reality [FSR].

In what ways can you reject 'system' as fundamental?
popeye1945
Posts: 2119
Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2021 2:12 am

Re: Humans are Intricately Part & Parcel of Reality

Post by popeye1945 »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 4:42 am
popeye1945 wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 4:05 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 3:13 am
For any rational person, 'first-person-experience' [personal subjective experience] as critical to realize and know reality is SO obvious, it is a waste of time to harp on it.

However, personal subjective experience, is not the only way to know the world.


In general All humans interacts in groups - 'No man is an Island ..'
It is within these COMPLEX interactions [via various FSKs] that they inter-influence each other and groups to enable the realization the emerging reality by the individuals and groups.

This is the reason I emphasized so much in human-based FSKs or FSRs, i.e. Framework and System of Knowledge or Reality.
Note 'human-based' thus the implication of 'biology'.
I think your just playing with semantics here making things more complicated than necessary. To the individual truth/fact is experience, to the group it is the agreement of a multitude of personal experiences. If you wish to continue to go around in circle with this, I'll bow out here.
It is not 'semantics'.
It is fundamentally epistemological.

What is foundational to my views re reality is "system" which is very critical.
Every [or almost] post of mine in this section leverage of 'system' theory, thus my FSK or Framework and System of Knowledge [FSK] or Reality [FSR].

In what ways can you reject 'system' as fundamental?
As I think I stated, everything is a system, everything is process, the biological system is conscious of the systems around it as objects. Your playing with semantics if you wish to make it more complicated than the fact that, truth/fact is a personal subjective experience, and to the group it is the collective of personal experiences in agreement.
Veritas Aequitas
Posts: 12243
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:41 am

Re: Humans are Intricately Part & Parcel of Reality

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

popeye1945 wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 5:44 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 4:42 am
popeye1945 wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 4:05 am

I think your just playing with semantics here making things more complicated than necessary. To the individual truth/fact is experience, to the group it is the agreement of a multitude of personal experiences. If you wish to continue to go around in circle with this, I'll bow out here.
It is not 'semantics'.
It is fundamentally epistemological.

What is foundational to my views re reality is "system" which is very critical.
Every [or almost] post of mine in this section leverage of 'system' theory, thus my FSK or Framework and System of Knowledge [FSK] or Reality [FSR].

In what ways can you reject 'system' as fundamental?
As I think I stated, everything is a system, everything is process, the biological system is conscious of the systems around it as objects. Your playing with semantics if you wish to make it more complicated than the fact that, truth/fact is a personal subjective experience, and to the group it is the collective of personal experiences in agreement.
I don't how you could simply brush the point as 'semantics'.

Note the original point is about what is objectivity;
viewtopic.php?p=642913#p642913

To ground objectivity one has to resort to condition all individual subjectivity within a collective human based FSK.

Note the ultimate of all this is to enable progress [in this case moral progress] within humanity in the future.
You cannot do this if you are stuck to merely first-person subjective experiences.

Note this post of mine in
A Philosophy for the Future
viewtopic.php?p=642924#p642924
popeye1945
Posts: 2119
Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2021 2:12 am

Re: Humans are Intricately Part & Parcel of Reality

Post by popeye1945 »

All meaning is dependent upon personal subjective experience, as knowledge and meaning, that the subject then bestows upon a meaningless world.
Post Reply