Philosophy Now Forum

The free decision does not depend on (or is not reducible to) the current state of affairs (by the current state of affairs I mean the existence of something, a mental state for example which is about making a decision in a situation) that is reducible. The existence of something (the current state of affairs) which is reducible by definition depends on something else (this is the definition of reducible). Therefore something which is reducible cannot be free or something which is free is irreducible.

In compact form:

1) Freedom is not reducible to A that is reducible
2) A is reducible
3) Therefore, A cannot be free

all fictional characters are slaves

-Imp

Weekends are for grinding the grist.

I agree.

Free can only be the One.

Nothing is ever actually free. To the extent we do not understand causality we may feel free.

Advocate wrote: ↑Fri Jan 20, 2023 8:53 pm Nothing is ever actually free. To the extent we do not understand causality we may feel free.

Causality! Have you ever had doubts? How doubt could be real if there is only a chain of causality?

[quote=bahman post_id=620090 time=1674244940 user_id=12593]
[quote=Advocate post_id=620088 time=1674244428 user_id=15238]
Nothing is ever actually free. To the extent we do not understand causality we may feel free.
[/quote]
Causality! Have you ever had doubts? How doubt could be real if there is only a chain of causality?
[/quote]

It's in the space that we do not understand causality that we feel free. Most people don't understand anything about causality so they feel fully free. But the idea of Will is sufficient to discuss the experience of freedom, we don't need to imagine up a cheat code on the universe. That's neither helpful not true. There are no cheat codes, no wormholes, gods, or chi, no free will. Everything that can happen, does happen, and that's one big infinite happening that you're experiencing right now.

Advocate wrote: ↑Fri Jan 20, 2023 9:31 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Fri Jan 20, 2023 9:02 pm

Advocate wrote: ↑Fri Jan 20, 2023 8:53 pm Nothing is ever actually free. To the extent we do not understand causality we may feel free.

Causality! Have you ever had doubts? How doubt could be real if there is only a chain of causality?

It's in the space that we do not understand causality that we feel free. Most people don't understand anything about causality so they feel fully free. But the idea of Will is sufficient to discuss the experience of freedom, we don't need to imagine up a cheat code on the universe. That's neither helpful not true. There are no cheat codes, no wormholes, gods, or chi, no free will. Everything that can happen, does happen, and that's one big infinite happening that you're experiencing right now.

I understand what causality is. It seems that you have never had a doubt!

[quote=bahman post_id=620096 time=1674247057 user_id=12593]
[quote=Advocate post_id=620094 time=1674246682 user_id=15238]
[quote=bahman post_id=620090 time=1674244940 user_id=12593]

Causality! Have you ever had doubts? How doubt could be real if there is only a chain of causality?
[/quote]

It's in the space that we do not understand causality that we feel free. Most people don't understand anything about causality so they feel fully free. But the idea of Will is sufficient to discuss the experience of freedom, we don't need to imagine up a cheat code on the universe. That's neither helpful not true. There are no cheat codes, no wormholes, gods, or chi, no free will. Everything that can happen, does happen, and that's one big infinite happening that you're experiencing right now.
[/quote]
I understand what causality is. It seems that you have never had a doubt!
[/quote]

When you get No woo! straight, everything else works itself out.

bahman wrote: ↑Thu Jan 19, 2023 6:35 pm The free decision does not depend on (or is not reducible to) the current state of affairs (by the current state of affairs I mean the existence of something, a mental state for example which is about making a decision in a situation) that is reducible. The existence of something (the current state of affairs) which is reducible by definition depends on something else (this is the definition of reducible). Therefore something which is reducible cannot be free or something which is free is irreducible.

In compact form:

1) Freedom is not reducible to A that is reducible
2) A is reducible
3) Therefore, A cannot be free

Is there ANY 'thing', which is NOT depended upon some thing else?

If yes, then what EXACTLY?

Also, maybe if you provide some examples, then your BELIEFS of what is IRREFUTABLY true here, which you are trying to express here, might become much easier and/or better understood.

bahman wrote: ↑Fri Jan 20, 2023 9:02 pm

Advocate wrote: ↑Fri Jan 20, 2023 8:53 pm Nothing is ever actually free. To the extent we do not understand causality we may feel free.

Causality! Have you ever had doubts? How doubt could be real if there is only a chain of causality?

If there IS 'an eternal chain of causality', which there OBVIOUSLY IS, then this does NOT mean that one could NOT possibly have 'doubt', for example one might 'doubt' that they will NOT win the lotto next week.

'Doubt' IS REAL. As 'i' doubt 'you' will FULLY UNDERSTAND the GUTOE before this week is out. BUT, I KNOW there IS a chain of causality.

Advocate wrote: ↑Fri Jan 20, 2023 9:31 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Fri Jan 20, 2023 9:02 pm

Advocate wrote: ↑Fri Jan 20, 2023 8:53 pm Nothing is ever actually free. To the extent we do not understand causality we may feel free.

Causality! Have you ever had doubts? How doubt could be real if there is only a chain of causality?

It's in the space that we do not understand causality that we feel free. Most people don't understand anything about causality so they feel fully free.

Do you understand EVERY thing about 'causality'?

Advocate wrote: ↑Fri Jan 20, 2023 9:31 pm But the idea of Will is sufficient to discuss the experience of freedom, we don't need to imagine up a cheat code on the universe. That's neither helpful not true. There are no cheat codes, no wormholes, gods, or chi, no free will.

REALLY, and you KNOW this HOW, EXACTLY?

Advocate wrote: ↑Fri Jan 20, 2023 9:31 pm Everything that can happen, does happen, and that's one big infinite happening that you're experiencing right now.

Age wrote: ↑Fri Jan 20, 2023 10:18 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Thu Jan 19, 2023 6:35 pm The free decision does not depend on (or is not reducible to) the current state of affairs (by the current state of affairs I mean the existence of something, a mental state for example which is about making a decision in a situation) that is reducible. The existence of something (the current state of affairs) which is reducible by definition depends on something else (this is the definition of reducible). Therefore something which is reducible cannot be free or something which is free is irreducible.

In compact form:

1) Freedom is not reducible to A that is reducible
2) A is reducible
3) Therefore, A cannot be free

Is there ANY 'thing', which is NOT depended upon some thing else?

If yes, then what EXACTLY?

Also, maybe if you provide some examples, then your BELIEFS of what is IRREFUTABLY true here, which you are trying to express here, might become much easier and/or better understood.

By reducible I mean that the existence of something depends on something else. Mind is an example of an irreducible substance. But to show this we have to agree that regress is impossible.

Age wrote: ↑Fri Jan 20, 2023 10:24 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Fri Jan 20, 2023 9:02 pm

Advocate wrote: ↑Fri Jan 20, 2023 8:53 pm Nothing is ever actually free. To the extent we do not understand causality we may feel free.

Causality! Have you ever had doubts? How doubt could be real if there is only a chain of causality?

If there IS 'an eternal chain of causality', which there OBVIOUSLY IS, then this does NOT mean that one could NOT possibly have 'doubt', for example one might 'doubt' that they will NOT win the lotto next week.

'Doubt' IS REAL. As 'i' doubt 'you' will FULLY UNDERSTAND the GUTOE before this week is out. BUT, I KNOW there IS a chain of causality.

Have you ever doubt to invest in something knowing the fact that the future is uncertain? Are you able not to have something you desire for no specific reason?

bahman wrote: ↑Sat Jan 21, 2023 3:22 pm

Age wrote: ↑Fri Jan 20, 2023 10:18 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Thu Jan 19, 2023 6:35 pm The free decision does not depend on (or is not reducible to) the current state of affairs (by the current state of affairs I mean the existence of something, a mental state for example which is about making a decision in a situation) that is reducible. The existence of something (the current state of affairs) which is reducible by definition depends on something else (this is the definition of reducible). Therefore something which is reducible cannot be free or something which is free is irreducible.

In compact form:

1) Freedom is not reducible to A that is reducible
2) A is reducible
3) Therefore, A cannot be free

Is there ANY 'thing', which is NOT depended upon some thing else?

If yes, then what EXACTLY?

Also, maybe if you provide some examples, then your BELIEFS of what is IRREFUTABLY true here, which you are trying to express here, might become much easier and/or better understood.

By reducible I mean that the existence of something depends on something else. Mind is an example of an irreducible substance. But to show this we have to agree that regress is impossible.

Well considering the Fact that 'regress' EXISTS, and SO it being NOT just POSSIBLE but an ACTUALITY you will NEVER be able to show what you are so desperately WANTING and HOPING to here.

By the way, I just SUGGESTED PROVIDING EXAMPLES. What you are replying to is some 'thing' VERY DIFFERENT.

Also, absolutely NO one HAS TO agree that 'regress' is impossible for you to be able to SHOW that 'mind' is an irreducible substance. you are just 'TRYING TO' DEFLECT here, ONCE AGAIN.