What did Jesus ever do for us?

[Harbal]

I know that Jesus is presented as the personification of goodness, but I'm not really sure why. I'm not trying to be provocative by saying that; I'm just one of those people who doesn't need to try. I know about some of the praiseworthy things Jesus is supposed to have said, but, when I think about it, I'm not aware of any commendable acts that he performed. I certainly don't know what he did that would justify the constructing of a religion round him.

[bobmax]

Jesus is the archetype of who you really are.

The essence of this figure is in claiming to be the son of God.

The only begotten son.
As are you.

[Harbal]

Jesus is the archetype of who you really are.

The essence of this figure is in claiming to be the son of God.

But what did he do to warrant his reputation for goodness?

The only begotten son.
As are you.

Yes, but I am the only begotten son of a Latvian refugee.

[promethean75]

jesus was a central character in a very marketable story that medieval venture capitalists would take advantage of producing once enough material was complied for a book. first with feathered pen then with printing press.

the simple life of a jewish hippie carpenter who always had a big enough clique around him to stir some shit up with the POleece. in a sense he wuz one of the first manson type sociopaths, tho his was a nonviolent and passive narcissistic messianic complex of the b4.c subtype.

[Harbal]

jesus was a central character in a very marketable story that medieval venture capitalists would take advantage of producing once enough material was complied for a book. first with feathered pen then with printing press.

the simple life of a jewish hippie carpenter who always had a big enough clique around him to stir some shit up with the POleece. in a sense he wuz one of the first manson type sociopaths, tho his was a nonviolent and passive narcissistic messianic complex of the b4.c subtype.

But what great deeds did he perform, whether fable or actual?

[promethean75]

The actual Jesus didn't do nuffin spectacular, but the mythological Jesus was a miracle performer who did all kinds of badass stuff. He could control and distort physical reality at a subatomic level like Vision the avenger, was nearly immortal, had healing and regeneration powers, could defy gravity and/or alter his body state to reach absolute buoyancy and walk on water, etc.

[henry quirk]

But what great deeds did he perform, whether fable or actual?

Mind you, I'm not sayin' He did, but...

*raised the dead (Lazarus)

*raised Himself from the dead

Them's two big ones.

Then there's...

*castin' out demons

*feedin' large numbers with very little

And, of course...

*payin' Man's debt

Again, I'm not sayin' He actually did any of that.

Oh yeah, almost forgot...

*tellin' thought-provokin' stories to folks to illustrate an ethic

[Harbal]

But what great deeds did he perform, whether fable or actual?

Mind you, I'm not sayin' He did, but...

*raised the dead (Lazarus)

*raised Himself from the dead

Them's two big ones.

I daresay Lazarus appreciated it but what is there in that for the rest of us to feel grateful for?

Then there's...

*castin' out demons

*feedin' large numbers with very little

And, of course...

*payin' Man's debt

Again, I'm not sayin' He actually did any of that.

Oh yeah, almost forgot...

*tellin' thought-provokin' stories to folks to illustrate an ethic

No offence, henry, but you're not doing a great job off selling him.

[henry quirk]

you're not doing a great job off selling him

I guess not...*shrug*

[Angelo Cannata]

The essence of what Jesus did is his death and resurrection, that for him was a reinterpretation of the Jewish Easter. The Jewish Easter is a living memory of the story of liberation from slavery in Egypt. Jesus reinterpreted this and created a new Easter, meant as a liberation not from the slavery of Egypt, but from the slavery of sin. With the new interpretation given by Jesus (largely reinterpreted, in turn, by st. Paul), the good news is that your sins are forgiven before you commit them. This means that all your future sins are already forgiven. What is up to you is just welcoming this forgiveness that God has already given to you. You accept the forgiveness, already given to you by God, by accepting to enter the new life that he proposes to you. Accepting this new life means repeating in your life the celebration of the new Easter, symbolized in Jesus’ last supper, and trying to put it in practice by loving your neighbour the same way Jesus did. You don’t need to be perfect in this: as I said, all your sins, past, present and future, are already forgiven. You just need to put in this your will, that means your acceptance of this new Covenant.

This is the theology of the essence of Jesus. You won’t find expressed this way anywhere, because everybody, including Jesus himself, has given different interpretations of all of this. I have given you mine, based on my experience of 22 years of Catholic priesthood, now non-believer, but still strongly appreciating the depth of Jesus’ message.

Does this sound to you like something valuable that Jesus did?

[Harbal]

The essence of what Jesus did is his death and resurrection, that for him was a reinterpretation of the Jewish Easter. The Jewish Easter is a living memory of the story of liberation from slavery in Egypt. Jesus reinterpreted this and created a new Easter, meant as a liberation not from the slavery of Egypt, but from the slavery of sin. With the new interpretation given by Jesus (largely reinterpreted, in turn, by st. Paul), the good news is that your sins are forgiven before you do them. This means that all your future sins are already forgiven. What is up to you is just welcoming this forgiveness that God has already given to you. You accept the forgiveness, already given to you by God, by accepting to enter the new life that he proposes to you. Accepting this new life means repeating in your life the celebration of the new Easter, symbolized in Jesus’ last supper, and trying to put it in practice by loving your neighbour the same way Jesus did. You don’t need to be perfect in this: as I said, all your sins, past, present and future, are already forgiven. You just need to put in this your will, that means your acceptance of this new Covenant.

This is the theology of the essence of Jesus. You won’t find expressed this way anywhere, because everybody, including Jesus himself, has given different interpretations of all of this. I have given you mine, based on my experience of 22 years of Catholic priesthood, now non-believer, but still strongly appreciating the depth of Jesus’ message.

Does this sound to you like something valuable that Jesus did?

No, it doesn't, because there is no sense to it. The whole process you describe above is wholly an arbitrary announcement from God. Jesus dying under the circumstances he did makes no difference to anybody unless they accept what you have set out above as being meaningful, even though it has hardly any meaning at all in a logical sense, and even then all it changes is what they imagine to be the case.

But thank you for your explanation.

[Angelo Cannata]

The whole process you describe above is wholly an arbitrary announcement from God.

I guess that “arbitrary” means “based on nothing”. It’s not based on nothing: it is based on the interpretation of the preceding events told in the Old Testament. Moreover, God doesn’t need to be based on anything because he, as being God, is the creator of all reasons.

Jesus dying under the circumstances he did makes no difference to anybody unless they accept what you have set out above as being meaningful, even though it has hardly any meaning at all in a logical sense, and even then all it changes is what they imagine to be the case.

Nothing is objectively meaningful: meaningfulness is based, as you said, in the subjective acceptance of meaningfulness. In this context, nothing can claim to be more meaningful than Jesus’ vicissitude. As a consequence, what’s the point of saying that Jesus’ death is not meaningful? It is like saying that a music composition, or an art painting, doesn’t have any valuable meaning: obviously they don't, since any meaningfulness is up to the interpretation given by the subject.

[Harbal]

Nothing is objectively meaningful: meaningfulness is based, as you said, in the subjective acceptance of meaningfulness. In this context, nothing can claim to be more meaningful than Jesus’ vicissitude. As a consequence, what’s the point of saying that Jesus’ death is not meaningful? It is like saying that a music composition, or an art painting, doesn’t have any valuable meaning: obviously they don't, since any meaningfulness is up to the interpretation given by the subject.

Okay, so maybe I can use this to explain what I'm trying to get at here.

I don't believe in God, I never have, so I obviously don't believe Jesus was anything more than a man. I don't know if he actually existed as a historical figure, but I am going to assume he did. On that basis it would be possible to hold him up as something to aspire to, given that he had done something to justify that. What I am basically asking is, as a man, what actual good did he do in the world that makes him worthy of high praise?

[phyllo]

He brought Christianity into the world.

If you think Christianity has been a good thing then he did good.

If you think Christianity has been a bad thing then he did bad.

[Angelo Cannata]

There is a trick in your question: "actual good" does not exist. Good and bad are subjective values, so, asking what actual good Jesus did doesn’t make sense. Whatever is good for somebody can be valued completely differently by somebody else.