further observations, 10/21/2022
she's 'recoding her world with verbal labels' (Curtiss), and this would be no simple task for a brain suffering expressive aphasia and dysarthria at the same time.
so there's major lateralization going on in her head... processes and spaces are being outsourced and made to perform as they wouldn't ordinarily. i can't find anything definitive about any brain imaging that might have been taken of G, so my guess that Broca's area had atrophied over the course of that isolation period due to the absolute lack of verbal stimulation in her environment... is just that, a guess.
but the 'left hemisphere of her brain underwent no specialization' (Bellugi/Klima) and 'language functions never lateralized to it'. so, in those early years when the most neuron trimming occurs, unused areas (Broca's in this case) lose their functionality.... and don't ever work again. G's environment had only minimal tactile and visual stimulation, but it is enough for the brain to centralize and dedicate attention to the right hemisphere where such information is processed most, as her brain matures.
G's rapid learning and use of sign language as well as her regression back into its use exclusively (unconscious defense mechanism) after the foster home incidents, might demonstrate how her ability to communicate (as fluently as possible) using visual symbols and movements best expresses what she means to communicate. in other words she's most satisfied by doing it that way becuz as i suspect, aphasia and dysarthria are frustrating as hell. i mean who needs all those conjunctions and articles and pronouns in grammar anyway, right? why wouldn't i say 'store go' rather than the whole, long drawn out 'hey bro I'm going to the store now'.
They didn't call Genie 'The Great Abbreviator' for nuthin. She knew exactly what she was doing and wuz a master haplologist.
True Story of the Day
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promethean75
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Re: True Story of the Day
Last edited by promethean75 on Fri Oct 21, 2022 6:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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promethean75
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Re: True Story of the Day
informal notes on the principles of the development of we todd facial expressions in comparison to the case of 'Genie'; a casual examination of the strange, oafish, distorted and uncoordinated physical movements of the we todd face during communication, etc.
Premise; there is a difference between impaired and/or degenerative first order motor skills and an absence of learned/acquired facial gesturing and expression that comes with the ease-of-speech period (around 3.5 years old). When the healthy child stops sounding like a we todd when talking and can produce syntactically proper grammar.
the struggle in speech, in G's case, that causes her distorted, we todd it like facial gesturing results from an internal struggle to produce the word both cognitively and physically with her vocal chords and mouth.
this is a different kind of struggle than the struggle of a we todd to produce communicative content. G knows wtf she's tryna say. She just can't say it.
the abstraction of 'driving to the store tomorrow with Marylyn to buy applesauce' exists in G's mind... she can see it in her imagination and she can expect it to happen if she is told it will happen. she can think about what it's going to be like to eat the applesauce once she gets it, remembers how she enjoys it, etc. She can experience a sense of thankfulness and express appreciation to marylyn in her own way.
a we todd can't do any of this, and when a we todd makes those faces when trying to communicate, it isn't just because they struggle to talk but also because they struggle to think.
G struggles only to express, not to mentally conceive and abstract complex situational relationships. i mean insofar as she performs at the level assigned to her by her examiners. obviously i don't mean interpreting the works of Shakespeare when i say mentally conceive and abstract.
i think G also eventually became self aware to the degree that she recognized she sounded like a we todd and became self conscious of it, worsening her frustrating battle against her speech impediments.
it's like beating yourself in the head in your own head, and nobody can know you know you look like a we todd but really aren't. you can't explain why you aren't and you can't act like you aren't cuz your goddamn body won't work right.
i can't think of a sense of turmoil more dreadful than this, save maybe physical torture.
trapped in this brain that's got everything but that critical part that allows me to explain anything of what I understand, to you. and whenever I try to, i look just like a we todd.
no wonder she stopped talking. I'd be like fuck that, too. Too much work. I'm just tryna get some applesauce ffs.
Premise; there is a difference between impaired and/or degenerative first order motor skills and an absence of learned/acquired facial gesturing and expression that comes with the ease-of-speech period (around 3.5 years old). When the healthy child stops sounding like a we todd when talking and can produce syntactically proper grammar.
the struggle in speech, in G's case, that causes her distorted, we todd it like facial gesturing results from an internal struggle to produce the word both cognitively and physically with her vocal chords and mouth.
this is a different kind of struggle than the struggle of a we todd to produce communicative content. G knows wtf she's tryna say. She just can't say it.
the abstraction of 'driving to the store tomorrow with Marylyn to buy applesauce' exists in G's mind... she can see it in her imagination and she can expect it to happen if she is told it will happen. she can think about what it's going to be like to eat the applesauce once she gets it, remembers how she enjoys it, etc. She can experience a sense of thankfulness and express appreciation to marylyn in her own way.
a we todd can't do any of this, and when a we todd makes those faces when trying to communicate, it isn't just because they struggle to talk but also because they struggle to think.
G struggles only to express, not to mentally conceive and abstract complex situational relationships. i mean insofar as she performs at the level assigned to her by her examiners. obviously i don't mean interpreting the works of Shakespeare when i say mentally conceive and abstract.
i think G also eventually became self aware to the degree that she recognized she sounded like a we todd and became self conscious of it, worsening her frustrating battle against her speech impediments.
it's like beating yourself in the head in your own head, and nobody can know you know you look like a we todd but really aren't. you can't explain why you aren't and you can't act like you aren't cuz your goddamn body won't work right.
i can't think of a sense of turmoil more dreadful than this, save maybe physical torture.
trapped in this brain that's got everything but that critical part that allows me to explain anything of what I understand, to you. and whenever I try to, i look just like a we todd.
no wonder she stopped talking. I'd be like fuck that, too. Too much work. I'm just tryna get some applesauce ffs.
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promethean75
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Re: True Story of the Day
additional material for case study 'Genie'.
implicit motor sequence learning like walking, running, manipulating and using complex objects, wuz happening very quickly and rather suddenly for G at the time of Shurley's sleep studies. Shurley he couldn't have not known any of what follows unless this knowledge was unavailable in 70-71.
okay member when i wuz talking about increased sleep spindles indicating thalamus activity for consolidating newly learned material for long term memory storage? well check this out.
"Motor sequence learning (MSL) task or motor control (CTRL) task before sleep.
Subjects were trained on either the MSL or CTRL task in the evening and retested 12 hours later the following morning on the same task after a night of PSG sleep recording. Total number and duration of sleep spindles and spectral power between 0.5 and 24 Hz were quantified during NREM sleep. After performing the MSL task, subjects exhibited a large increase in number and duration of sleep spindles compared to after the CTRL task. Higher sigma (sigma; 13 Hz) and beta (beta; 18-20 Hz) spectral power during the post-training night's sleep were also observed after the MSL task."
booyah bitches. a greater frequency of sleep spindles may not be indicative of mental we toddation in G's case. i have provided an alternative explanation for the phenomena and submit my findings to the archive of Genie case material.
Shurley we would need to know more details about the specifics of the sleep spindles, tho. in what regions, fast or slow, at stage 1, 2 or 3 of NREM sleep, etc.
The point, however, is that such activity is typical of people involved in intense sequential training of some kind... and G shurley wuz at the testing time.
the conclusion we draw here is however provisional, pending further research and any acquisition of additional information pertaining to case study 'Genie'.
implicit motor sequence learning like walking, running, manipulating and using complex objects, wuz happening very quickly and rather suddenly for G at the time of Shurley's sleep studies. Shurley he couldn't have not known any of what follows unless this knowledge was unavailable in 70-71.
okay member when i wuz talking about increased sleep spindles indicating thalamus activity for consolidating newly learned material for long term memory storage? well check this out.
"Motor sequence learning (MSL) task or motor control (CTRL) task before sleep.
Subjects were trained on either the MSL or CTRL task in the evening and retested 12 hours later the following morning on the same task after a night of PSG sleep recording. Total number and duration of sleep spindles and spectral power between 0.5 and 24 Hz were quantified during NREM sleep. After performing the MSL task, subjects exhibited a large increase in number and duration of sleep spindles compared to after the CTRL task. Higher sigma (sigma; 13 Hz) and beta (beta; 18-20 Hz) spectral power during the post-training night's sleep were also observed after the MSL task."
booyah bitches. a greater frequency of sleep spindles may not be indicative of mental we toddation in G's case. i have provided an alternative explanation for the phenomena and submit my findings to the archive of Genie case material.
Shurley we would need to know more details about the specifics of the sleep spindles, tho. in what regions, fast or slow, at stage 1, 2 or 3 of NREM sleep, etc.
The point, however, is that such activity is typical of people involved in intense sequential training of some kind... and G shurley wuz at the testing time.
the conclusion we draw here is however provisional, pending further research and any acquisition of additional information pertaining to case study 'Genie'.
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promethean75
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Re: True Story of the Day
well I've just made some rather disconcerting discoveries in my ongoing research, and am obligated to share them in the name of science, in spite of my overzealous optimism for G's prognosis.
the second child of the Wiley's died two days after being born because of Rh incompatibility; the mother's antibodies attack the fetus by passing through the placenta, eventually destroying red blood cells.
G was also born with Rh incompatibility but there were no significant signs of any damage. she appeared otherwise healthy after a blood transfusion.
the second of the doctors to see G before twenty months old (G, not the doctor) suggested that she could be suffering from kernicterus, a condition i believe wuz caused by the hyperbilirubinemia caused by the hemolysis caused by the Rh incompatibility if indeed she had it. How the doc came to that conclusion is not explained.
If so, the neurotoxin concentrations then damaged G's brain development during the fetal and late stages. but there is a caveat. what areas of the brain were affected and what wuz the extent of the damage? becuz we cannot know, we can't be sure if some feature of her behavior and ability is the result of the organic conditions created by the Rh incompatibility, or the neurological atrophy caused by ten years tied to a potty chair in a dark room.
see what a bitch this one is? in all my minutes of language acquisition theory research I've never come across a case like this.
the second child of the Wiley's died two days after being born because of Rh incompatibility; the mother's antibodies attack the fetus by passing through the placenta, eventually destroying red blood cells.
G was also born with Rh incompatibility but there were no significant signs of any damage. she appeared otherwise healthy after a blood transfusion.
the second of the doctors to see G before twenty months old (G, not the doctor) suggested that she could be suffering from kernicterus, a condition i believe wuz caused by the hyperbilirubinemia caused by the hemolysis caused by the Rh incompatibility if indeed she had it. How the doc came to that conclusion is not explained.
If so, the neurotoxin concentrations then damaged G's brain development during the fetal and late stages. but there is a caveat. what areas of the brain were affected and what wuz the extent of the damage? becuz we cannot know, we can't be sure if some feature of her behavior and ability is the result of the organic conditions created by the Rh incompatibility, or the neurological atrophy caused by ten years tied to a potty chair in a dark room.
see what a bitch this one is? in all my minutes of language acquisition theory research I've never come across a case like this.
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promethean75
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Re: True Story of the Day
excerpt from research article:
"...extreme spindles are reportedly common in mentally retarded children (Gibbs
and Gibbs, 1973) but rare in adult mental retardates (Gibbs and Gibbs, 1964).
Extreme spindles are rather similar to normal sleep spindles except for their
diffuseness, much higher voltage (200-400 p., V), and more or less continuous
nature; they do not correlate with epilepsy but with mental retardation. Cerebral
palsy is common (26%) among children with extreme spindles, and the extrapyra-
midal forms of cerebral palsy are more commonly associated with extreme spin-
dles than are the spastic types (Gibbs and Gibbs, 1964)."
incidentally there are extrapyramidal symptoms that G displayed; rigid muscles in the limbs, increased salivation, slow movement, and changes in posture and/or gait. course if she didn't definitively have some variation of cerebral palsy, these symptoms would be coincidental or even explained away by some other unrelated cause, e.g., unusual gait is caused by legs being confined, not muscular discoordination.
on the other hand, we now have other evidence that could support a we toddation from birth theory.
"...extreme spindles are reportedly common in mentally retarded children (Gibbs
and Gibbs, 1973) but rare in adult mental retardates (Gibbs and Gibbs, 1964).
Extreme spindles are rather similar to normal sleep spindles except for their
diffuseness, much higher voltage (200-400 p., V), and more or less continuous
nature; they do not correlate with epilepsy but with mental retardation. Cerebral
palsy is common (26%) among children with extreme spindles, and the extrapyra-
midal forms of cerebral palsy are more commonly associated with extreme spin-
dles than are the spastic types (Gibbs and Gibbs, 1964)."
incidentally there are extrapyramidal symptoms that G displayed; rigid muscles in the limbs, increased salivation, slow movement, and changes in posture and/or gait. course if she didn't definitively have some variation of cerebral palsy, these symptoms would be coincidental or even explained away by some other unrelated cause, e.g., unusual gait is caused by legs being confined, not muscular discoordination.
on the other hand, we now have other evidence that could support a we toddation from birth theory.
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promethean75
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Re: True Story of the Day
So he have two conflicting hypothesis so far, each with their supporting observations: a) high sleep spindle activity can be caused by the over taxed thalamus of a person engaged in challenging motor sequential learning and b) high sleep spindle activity can be caused by mental we toddation, b.1) subject 'Genie' readily displays extrapyramidal symptoms.
At the outset I'm discouraged to know the material I'd need to reach any further conclusions wouldn't be available unless I contacted and requested it from UCLA... something I doubt would be received well by those to whom this is concerned. On that note, and in good standing with the principles of science, I should therefore declare our case study 'Genie' to be inconclusive, and leave it open for further investigation.
At the outset I'm discouraged to know the material I'd need to reach any further conclusions wouldn't be available unless I contacted and requested it from UCLA... something I doubt would be received well by those to whom this is concerned. On that note, and in good standing with the principles of science, I should therefore declare our case study 'Genie' to be inconclusive, and leave it open for further investigation.
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promethean75
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Re: True Story of the Day
a Genie tribute pack for intermission, as well as to commemorate her best years before her fuckin moms blew it when she tried to sue everybody. she still lives at 65ish years old... but she doesn't live like she lived from 70 to 76.
to view tribute pack:
1. click https://vimeo.com/427827849?embedded=fa ... r=59011654 first.
2. pause video
3. click https://youtu.be/n4q6bVQUSrc
4. play song and cue video
5. cry your heart out
Note to the PN committee for the Genie case study. Should we collaborate our work in these last few days into a single thread committed to further research? I hadn't originally planned to engage the task but wuz so taken by the case that i couldn't help but indulge in my research. Discuss the decision with the board and let me know.
to view tribute pack:
1. click https://vimeo.com/427827849?embedded=fa ... r=59011654 first.
2. pause video
3. click https://youtu.be/n4q6bVQUSrc
4. play song and cue video
5. cry your heart out
Note to the PN committee for the Genie case study. Should we collaborate our work in these last few days into a single thread committed to further research? I hadn't originally planned to engage the task but wuz so taken by the case that i couldn't help but indulge in my research. Discuss the decision with the board and let me know.
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promethean75
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- Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2018 10:29 pm
Re: True Story of the Day
one really could aks 'what's the big deal... it's just a story about an isolated and abused we todd it girl'. but that very fact, that 'it's just a story', that it happened, and that it duddint really matter, is precisely what is so shocking about it. that it happened at all... and here is where it gets metaphysically good... would have tremendous theological and/or theodic significance.
either materialism is true and the Genie case is just an unfortunate story about a we todd it girl, merely... or... there is some kind of spiritual significance to everything, especially certain kinds of people, and G would be a veritable archetype among human beings on account of the incredible uniqueness of her life and her experiences.
what I'm saying simply is that we either have a we todd or we have a person with an extraordinary amount of importance in some deeply symbolic and spiritual way. what, i dunno, but this is the kind of person that is an event that is either absolutely important and significant or nothing at all is important.
there is no 'kinda important' at such a rank as G's... a rank that is metaphorically beyond christ-like in nature... symbolic of an even greater suffering than being sacrificed. total or near total isolation... paying for the sins of the state and its failure, the family... striken by debilitating disease and/or neurological conditions that make Job feel lucky. etc., etc. just draw on the narrative because the pathos is incomprehensibly powerful. you'd never exhaust the level of sadness you'd be able to feel for this person when really reflecting on her story.
so I'm gonna start a religious cult then around Genie with the intentions of discovering her real significance through guided esoteric studies of the circumstances surrounding her life. membership is free but thirty days after a small monthly membership fee will apply. there will be t-shirts.
of course, we know what Freddie Mercury said is true. nothing really matters. but my point is just this. IF one is religious in any way and believing in teleological proposes in a universe that has some kind of spiritual content or activity, you cannot BUT absolutely revere this person and directly intuit some great depth and purpose to her being. you'd have to rank her at the level of a prophet or an angel or sumthin. she'd be no mere 'somewhat' important person in this world. she'd be a message, like an event so that wuz so magnificent in scale and quality it would be spoken about the revelations or an equivalent text. THAT kind of important.
When a muhfucka says 'things happen for a reason', this is what a muhfucka meant.
listen man some kid walking down the sidewalk with his dad passed G and a few steps down the walkway, turned around, caught up with G and gave her his toy fire engine. She didn't aks him or nuthin. What that kid felt wuz the force, bro.
How's that scripture go....?
'they will bring gifts, etc.'
just sayin bro. I'm just sayin.
either materialism is true and the Genie case is just an unfortunate story about a we todd it girl, merely... or... there is some kind of spiritual significance to everything, especially certain kinds of people, and G would be a veritable archetype among human beings on account of the incredible uniqueness of her life and her experiences.
what I'm saying simply is that we either have a we todd or we have a person with an extraordinary amount of importance in some deeply symbolic and spiritual way. what, i dunno, but this is the kind of person that is an event that is either absolutely important and significant or nothing at all is important.
there is no 'kinda important' at such a rank as G's... a rank that is metaphorically beyond christ-like in nature... symbolic of an even greater suffering than being sacrificed. total or near total isolation... paying for the sins of the state and its failure, the family... striken by debilitating disease and/or neurological conditions that make Job feel lucky. etc., etc. just draw on the narrative because the pathos is incomprehensibly powerful. you'd never exhaust the level of sadness you'd be able to feel for this person when really reflecting on her story.
so I'm gonna start a religious cult then around Genie with the intentions of discovering her real significance through guided esoteric studies of the circumstances surrounding her life. membership is free but thirty days after a small monthly membership fee will apply. there will be t-shirts.
of course, we know what Freddie Mercury said is true. nothing really matters. but my point is just this. IF one is religious in any way and believing in teleological proposes in a universe that has some kind of spiritual content or activity, you cannot BUT absolutely revere this person and directly intuit some great depth and purpose to her being. you'd have to rank her at the level of a prophet or an angel or sumthin. she'd be no mere 'somewhat' important person in this world. she'd be a message, like an event so that wuz so magnificent in scale and quality it would be spoken about the revelations or an equivalent text. THAT kind of important.
When a muhfucka says 'things happen for a reason', this is what a muhfucka meant.
listen man some kid walking down the sidewalk with his dad passed G and a few steps down the walkway, turned around, caught up with G and gave her his toy fire engine. She didn't aks him or nuthin. What that kid felt wuz the force, bro.
How's that scripture go....?
'they will bring gifts, etc.'
just sayin bro. I'm just sayin.
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promethean75
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Re: True Story of the Day
I am attempting to establish contact with Professor Susan Curtiss in an effort to help her gain the privilege to see G.
....
Hi! Excuse my informalities but i recently re-discovered the Genie Wiley case and was profoundly moved by it - i had known about it vaguely already through the news, but nothing of details. Anyway i was really struck by the news that the facility caring for Genie refuses to let you see her. i don't pretend to understand the legalities of the situation, and yet at the same time, i can't imagine why or how giving you visitation rights would jeopardize or endanger either Genie or the facility.
Anyway i just wanted to be nosey and ask if you know of any contact information for the facility she's at. I wanted to take a shot at convincing whoever makes the decisions to let you see her. Send them an email. What's the worse that could happen, right?
all this of course only if you'd still like to see her and are able. i assume you do and are.
anyway wow Susan Curtiss. there's so much I'd love to chat about, so many questions about Genie and your work with her, but i imagine you're very busy so wouldn't bother you.... okay maybe just this once...
what got me especially intrigued by the case - other than the obvious tragedy that it was - was that problem of the critical stage period and the inability to determine in Genie's case whether or not she suffered at least some degree of metal retardation from birth. i followed the disputes between Shurley and yourself and understand your arguments and how difficult your positions were. Genie was an extraordinary event presenting extraordinary opportunities, questions and mysteries. there just wasn't enough data there and this had to be frustrating af for you guys. Imagine how lost a second party like myself would be trying to figure it all out.
here's an example of what i mean. and keep in mind I'm an amateur hobby philosopher so i might say uninformed and outrageous stuff. but here's the problem; there are alternative explanations for the high sleep spindle activity that Shurley observed in Genie. there are noted studies showing increased spindle activity correlating with the thalamus activity of people who were very recently engaged in learning sequential motor skill tasks. Shurley conducted these tests relatively recent to Genie's rescue (what was it, a few months later?), so he's observing the brain characteristics of a person who has just been thrown from a sense deprivation chamber into a world exploding with objects and activity, and is therefore intensely engaged in sequential learning. Could Shurley have considered this and attributed the abnormal spindle activity to, say, an over-worked thalamus? Shurley he would have thought of that? I'm not shur of it, but that data was avaliable at that time.
the bad news is, there's a line of coincidences in Genie, genetically, that could point toward mental retardation. both her and her brother (perhaps even the first child, i can't remember) had Rh incompatibilities, which, in a worst case scenario, could have caused permanent fetal brain damage. incidentally, that second doctor that diagnosed Genie around twenty months old said she could have had kernicterus... and that can indeed evolve from an Rh incompatibility. i wonder if he was aware of that.
anyway, at some point in the Wikipedia article something along the lines of "there are more ways to understand the world than thinking about it" was said in reference to you. this immediately brought to mind Wittgenstein's language games and picture theory of mind, etc. i had made the joke to some others that Genie had kicked down Wittgenstein's ladder. lol.
finally, that asshat Butler and Genie's mom ruined everything. and the state's incompetence only worsened matters.
okay I'll wrap it up, thank you for everything you did with Genie, and do my best to get you in there to see her if you can help me establish contact with whoever pulls the strings.
susan curtiss. THE susan curtiss. this is so awesome.
p.s. this post was not proofread for typos, improper grammar or punctuation. like G, i find such things to be too tedious to bother with.
....
Hi! Excuse my informalities but i recently re-discovered the Genie Wiley case and was profoundly moved by it - i had known about it vaguely already through the news, but nothing of details. Anyway i was really struck by the news that the facility caring for Genie refuses to let you see her. i don't pretend to understand the legalities of the situation, and yet at the same time, i can't imagine why or how giving you visitation rights would jeopardize or endanger either Genie or the facility.
Anyway i just wanted to be nosey and ask if you know of any contact information for the facility she's at. I wanted to take a shot at convincing whoever makes the decisions to let you see her. Send them an email. What's the worse that could happen, right?
all this of course only if you'd still like to see her and are able. i assume you do and are.
anyway wow Susan Curtiss. there's so much I'd love to chat about, so many questions about Genie and your work with her, but i imagine you're very busy so wouldn't bother you.... okay maybe just this once...
what got me especially intrigued by the case - other than the obvious tragedy that it was - was that problem of the critical stage period and the inability to determine in Genie's case whether or not she suffered at least some degree of metal retardation from birth. i followed the disputes between Shurley and yourself and understand your arguments and how difficult your positions were. Genie was an extraordinary event presenting extraordinary opportunities, questions and mysteries. there just wasn't enough data there and this had to be frustrating af for you guys. Imagine how lost a second party like myself would be trying to figure it all out.
here's an example of what i mean. and keep in mind I'm an amateur hobby philosopher so i might say uninformed and outrageous stuff. but here's the problem; there are alternative explanations for the high sleep spindle activity that Shurley observed in Genie. there are noted studies showing increased spindle activity correlating with the thalamus activity of people who were very recently engaged in learning sequential motor skill tasks. Shurley conducted these tests relatively recent to Genie's rescue (what was it, a few months later?), so he's observing the brain characteristics of a person who has just been thrown from a sense deprivation chamber into a world exploding with objects and activity, and is therefore intensely engaged in sequential learning. Could Shurley have considered this and attributed the abnormal spindle activity to, say, an over-worked thalamus? Shurley he would have thought of that? I'm not shur of it, but that data was avaliable at that time.
the bad news is, there's a line of coincidences in Genie, genetically, that could point toward mental retardation. both her and her brother (perhaps even the first child, i can't remember) had Rh incompatibilities, which, in a worst case scenario, could have caused permanent fetal brain damage. incidentally, that second doctor that diagnosed Genie around twenty months old said she could have had kernicterus... and that can indeed evolve from an Rh incompatibility. i wonder if he was aware of that.
anyway, at some point in the Wikipedia article something along the lines of "there are more ways to understand the world than thinking about it" was said in reference to you. this immediately brought to mind Wittgenstein's language games and picture theory of mind, etc. i had made the joke to some others that Genie had kicked down Wittgenstein's ladder. lol.
finally, that asshat Butler and Genie's mom ruined everything. and the state's incompetence only worsened matters.
okay I'll wrap it up, thank you for everything you did with Genie, and do my best to get you in there to see her if you can help me establish contact with whoever pulls the strings.
susan curtiss. THE susan curtiss. this is so awesome.
p.s. this post was not proofread for typos, improper grammar or punctuation. like G, i find such things to be too tedious to bother with.
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promethean75
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- Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2018 10:29 pm
Re: True Story of the Day
"She was also extremely eager to expand her vocabulary, frequently grabbing Curtiss' hand and pointing it towards objects for which she wanted to know the word, and if Curtiss could not figure out exactly what Genie was looking for Genie refused to let go until she learned at least one new word."
woah. think about it. you can't gesture a reference to something yourself unless you've learned in social interaction of your own ability to direct and hold other's attention upon your request.
two types of indicative pointing, the gesture of pointing and drawing other's attention to something. there's the alterting type (look!) and then there's the inquiring type (what is that?)
Genie didn't possess the comprehension for the second type, so wouldn't have thought to solicit Curtiss's attention and explanation for something by pointing at it herself. Genie is a reverse-solipsist! In wanting to know the word for 'tree', she communicates this desire by projecting herself into Curtiss such that Curtiss wants to know and is asking herself; one points to the tree if they want to know it. therefore, Curtiss must point to tree, etc. incidentally, G also often confused and reversed the uses of 'you' and 'me'.
You could say Genie was stuck in a linguistical lacanic pre-mirror stage in which she couldn't differentiate the meaning of her own pointing from that of another. see what i mean? she wasn't a solipsist, but the antithesis! she couldn't know that you'd accept her own pointing as enough or at all becuz she's never experienced that kind of complex exchange with someone. for her to want to know something and communicate that desire to you, she has to make you imitate the kind of behavior she exhibits when she wants to know... and points with your hand instead of hers.
woah.
woah. think about it. you can't gesture a reference to something yourself unless you've learned in social interaction of your own ability to direct and hold other's attention upon your request.
two types of indicative pointing, the gesture of pointing and drawing other's attention to something. there's the alterting type (look!) and then there's the inquiring type (what is that?)
Genie didn't possess the comprehension for the second type, so wouldn't have thought to solicit Curtiss's attention and explanation for something by pointing at it herself. Genie is a reverse-solipsist! In wanting to know the word for 'tree', she communicates this desire by projecting herself into Curtiss such that Curtiss wants to know and is asking herself; one points to the tree if they want to know it. therefore, Curtiss must point to tree, etc. incidentally, G also often confused and reversed the uses of 'you' and 'me'.
You could say Genie was stuck in a linguistical lacanic pre-mirror stage in which she couldn't differentiate the meaning of her own pointing from that of another. see what i mean? she wasn't a solipsist, but the antithesis! she couldn't know that you'd accept her own pointing as enough or at all becuz she's never experienced that kind of complex exchange with someone. for her to want to know something and communicate that desire to you, she has to make you imitate the kind of behavior she exhibits when she wants to know... and points with your hand instead of hers.
woah.
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promethean75
- Posts: 5099
- Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2018 10:29 pm
Re: True Story of the Day
no reply from Curtiss so far. i fear it's possible that the entire Genie Team has long retired... only a vague memory of those years now sealed in the archives of silence. Curtiss, Kent, Shurley, the Riglers and myself can only ask as we reflect on so much work and progress lost to the tragic turn of events; what do we do? With Genie now gone from us, perhaps forever, we suffer inexplicable grief, indecision, and feel we have less of a purpose not only in the study of language acquisition, but in life.
our forbidden experiment was a failure and the future of critical stage theory is uncertain.
my colleagues and i now ask you: where do we go from here?
our forbidden experiment was a failure and the future of critical stage theory is uncertain.
my colleagues and i now ask you: where do we go from here?
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promethean75
- Posts: 5099
- Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2018 10:29 pm
Re: True Story of the Day
so now i find out G's mercury is in Taurus. I swear to god will anybody give this poor girl a break? mercury rules communication, and what does she get? Taurus, when gemini or aquarius would have been an absolutely better deal. if anybody ever needed mercury in gemini or aquarius, by god it wuz G.
see what i mean tho? even pseudo-scientific concepts and forces are conspiring against her.
see what i mean tho? even pseudo-scientific concepts and forces are conspiring against her.
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iambiguous
- Posts: 7730
- Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2010 10:23 pm
Re: True Story of the Day
This all reminds me [somewhat] of Kasper Hauser.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaspar_Hauser
Werner Herzog directed a film about him:
https://ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopic.p ... 8#p2338266
Trailer: https://youtu.be/tzxreLUzuUI
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaspar_Hauser
Werner Herzog directed a film about him:
https://ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopic.p ... 8#p2338266
Trailer: https://youtu.be/tzxreLUzuUI
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promethean75
- Posts: 5099
- Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2018 10:29 pm
Re: True Story of the Day
I think that guy's a fraud man. Read up on em and what the critics say and you'll see.
Another really bad one wuz 'the girl in the window' (Danielle), but G's got her beat in length of time, severity of isolation, restriction, sense deprivation, physical abuse, and fate. Danielle wuz pretty much locked in a room with stuff in it and moved about freely. Wasn't beaten in any way either, allegedly. The only score she beats G on is the unsanitary conditions score.
There's another one too... that red headed girl, European or Australian, can't remember, who lived in a dog kennel and thought we wuz a dog... jumping around on all fours and barking and shit. They got her on YouTube.
Another really bad one wuz 'the girl in the window' (Danielle), but G's got her beat in length of time, severity of isolation, restriction, sense deprivation, physical abuse, and fate. Danielle wuz pretty much locked in a room with stuff in it and moved about freely. Wasn't beaten in any way either, allegedly. The only score she beats G on is the unsanitary conditions score.
There's another one too... that red headed girl, European or Australian, can't remember, who lived in a dog kennel and thought we wuz a dog... jumping around on all fours and barking and shit. They got her on YouTube.
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iambiguous
- Posts: 7730
- Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2010 10:23 pm
Re: True Story of the Day
promethean75 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 26, 2022 5:55 pm I think that guy's a fraud man. Read up on em and what the critics say and you'll see.
Well, if you Google it, you get this: https://www.google.com/search?q=was+kas ... nt=gws-wiz
Herzog's film seemed to suggest that he was the real deal.