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How come Jesus could not convince the Judge?
Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2022 9:00 pm
by bahman
If He is God He could certainly convince the judge and doesn't get the punishment, the cross.
Re: How come Jesus could not convince the Judge?
Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:43 pm
by Angelo Cannata
It is a well known question in the Gospels themselves: they told him that if he was God he should come down from the cross. The devil as well tells him that, if he is God, he could turn stones to bread. The answer given by the Gospels is not at all clear. Essentially, it is the problem of theodicy, which is the problem to which that nobody has been ever able to give a convincing answer. The fact is that, since the beginning, even in the Old Testament, despite their clear knowledge of the problem of theodicy, they decided all the same to believe in God. We can’t assume that they were stupid, exactly because they didn’t make any effort to hide the problem; on the contrary, they expressed it always clearly.
This means that in their experience the foundation of their faith was not to be found on any strong reasoning, any kind of consistent logic. They were perfectly aware that there was no logic and no alternative logic able to solve the problem of theodicy. So, we need to think that they based their faith on something beyond, or behind, words and reasoning. What is this thing behind and beyond words and reasoning? Experience.
Personally I think that we need to go even further, by realizing that reasoning is a kind of experience as well, worth to be considered seriously, so that the option not to believe in God because of the problem of theodicy is not a weak one, compared to the experience of faith.
Re: How come Jesus could not convince the Judge?
Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2022 2:57 am
by attofishpi
bahman wrote: ↑Mon Jun 27, 2022 9:00 pm
If He is God He could certainly convince the judge and doesn't get the punishment, the cross.
bahman, you silly billy. It was ALWAYS his intention to allow himself to be sacrificed.
Re: How come Jesus could not convince the Judge?
Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2022 5:06 am
by Age
Angelo Cannata wrote: ↑Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:43 pm
It is a well known question in the Gospels themselves: they told him that if he was God he should come down from the cross. The devil as well tells him that, if he is God, he could turn stones to bread. The answer given by the Gospels is not at all clear.
Did "jesus" EVER say, ' “jesus“ is God ', or did “jesus" say, ' 'I' am God '?
If it was the latter, then this can NOT be refuted. However, if it was the former, then, OBVIOUSLY, this is NOT correct and just PLAIN False and Wrong, "jesus" WAS and IS the child of God, or in male gendered terms, the son of God.
Angelo Cannata wrote: ↑Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:43 pm
Essentially, it is the problem of theodicy, which is the problem to which that nobody has been ever able to give a convincing answer.
Ask the SPECIFIC question, then the True AND Right answer CAN be given.
Angelo Cannata wrote: ↑Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:43 pm
The fact is that, since the beginning, even in the Old Testament, despite their clear knowledge of the problem of theodicy, they decided all the same to believe in God.
What do the words, 'since the beginning', here refer to, EXACTLY?
And despite CLEAR knowledge, 'you', adult human beings, in the days when this is being written, have CHOSEN TO and STILL BELIEVE IN things.
Angelo Cannata wrote: ↑Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:43 pm
We can’t assume that they were stupid, exactly because they didn’t make any effort to hide the problem; on the contrary, they expressed it always clearly.
What is this so-called “problem of theodicy“, which you imagine or vision here?
Only when that is CLEARLY expressed can we then fix it or solve 'it' for you.
Angelo Cannata wrote: ↑Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:43 pm
This means that in their experience the foundation of their faith was not to be found on any strong reasoning, any kind of consistent logic. They were perfectly aware that there was no logic and no alternative logic able to solve the problem of theodicy.
Again, what "problem" are you SEEING and TALKING ABOUT here?
Angelo Cannata wrote: ↑Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:43 pm
So, we need to think that they based their faith on something beyond, or behind, words and reasoning.
Well that is ONE WAY to 'think', but it WILL only lead you even FURTHER ASTRAY.
Angelo Cannata wrote: ↑Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:43 pm
What is this thing behind and beyond words and reasoning? Experience.
Personally I think that we need to go even further, by realizing that reasoning is a kind of experience as well, worth to be considered seriously, so that the option not to believe in God because of the problem of theodicy is not a weak one, compared to the experience of faith.
Re: How come Jesus could not convince the Judge?
Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2022 9:13 am
by Dontaskme
attofishpi wrote: ↑Tue Jun 28, 2022 2:57 am
bahman wrote: ↑Mon Jun 27, 2022 9:00 pm
If He is God He could certainly convince the judge and doesn't get the punishment, the cross.
bahman, you silly billy. It was ALWAYS his intention to allow himself to be sacrificed.
But the sacrifice was just an illusion ..yeah?
Re: How come Jesus could not convince the Judge?
Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2022 9:17 am
by attofishpi
Dontaskme wrote: ↑Tue Jun 28, 2022 9:13 am
attofishpi wrote: ↑Tue Jun 28, 2022 2:57 am
bahman wrote: ↑Mon Jun 27, 2022 9:00 pm
If He is God He could certainly convince the judge and doesn't get the punishment, the cross.
bahman, you silly billy. It was ALWAYS his intention to allow himself to be sacrificed.
But the sacrifice was just an illusion ..yeah?
Plausible, but I doubt it. God has got more bollocks than that for the message.
Re: How come Jesus could not convince the Judge?
Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2022 9:23 am
by Dontaskme
attofishpi wrote: ↑Tue Jun 28, 2022 9:17 am
Dontaskme wrote: ↑Tue Jun 28, 2022 9:13 am
attofishpi wrote: ↑Tue Jun 28, 2022 2:57 am
bahman, you silly billy. It was ALWAYS his intention to allow himself to be sacrificed.
But the sacrifice was just an illusion ..yeah?
Plausible, but I doubt it. God has got more bollocks than that for the message.
So what was the sacrifice, if you doubt it was an illusion ..what did it mean to God to sacrifice himself?
Re: How come Jesus could not convince the Judge?
Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2022 9:29 am
by attofishpi
Dontaskme wrote: ↑Tue Jun 28, 2022 9:23 am
attofishpi wrote: ↑Tue Jun 28, 2022 9:17 am
Dontaskme wrote: ↑Tue Jun 28, 2022 9:13 am
But the sacrifice was just an illusion ..yeah?
Plausible, but I doubt it. God has got more bollocks than that for the message.
So what was the sacrifice, if you doubt it was an illusion ..what did it mean to God to sacrifice himself?
That is a very good question. That is a question that can only be answered by one that has gnosis (me among some). Unfortunately, I am not prepared to answer ANYONE about it.
Re: How come Jesus could not convince the Judge?
Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2022 9:56 am
by Dontaskme
attofishpi wrote: ↑Tue Jun 28, 2022 9:29 am
Dontaskme wrote: ↑Tue Jun 28, 2022 9:23 am
attofishpi wrote: ↑Tue Jun 28, 2022 9:17 am
Plausible, but I doubt it. God has got more bollocks than that for the message.
So what was the sacrifice, if you doubt it was an illusion ..what did it mean to God to sacrifice himself?
That is a very good question. That is a question that can only be answered by one that has gnosis (me among some). Unfortunately, I am not prepared to answer ANYONE about it.
I agree with you.
I understand what you have said. It was to me, the perfect answer. Thanks for that.
Re: How come Jesus could not convince the Judge?
Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2022 3:21 pm
by bahman
Angelo Cannata wrote: ↑Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:43 pm
It is a well known question in the Gospels themselves: they told him that if he was God he should come down from the cross. The devil as well tells him that, if he is God, he could turn stones to bread. The answer given by the Gospels is not at all clear. Essentially, it is the problem of theodicy, which is the problem to which that nobody has been ever able to give a convincing answer. The fact is that, since the beginning, even in the Old Testament, despite their clear knowledge of the problem of theodicy, they decided all the same to believe in God. We can’t assume that they were stupid, exactly because they didn’t make any effort to hide the problem; on the contrary, they expressed it always clearly.
This means that in their experience the foundation of their faith was not to be found on any strong reasoning, any kind of consistent logic. They were perfectly aware that there was no logic and no alternative logic able to solve the problem of theodicy. So, we need to think that they based their faith on something beyond, or behind, words and reasoning. What is this thing behind and beyond words and reasoning? Experience.
Personally I think that we need to go even further, by realizing that reasoning is a kind of experience as well, worth to be considered seriously, so that the option not to believe in God because of the problem of theodicy is not a weak one, compared to the experience of faith.
Believing in something that is illogical is not acceptable to me.
Re: How come Jesus could not convince the Judge?
Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2022 3:23 pm
by bahman
attofishpi wrote: ↑Tue Jun 28, 2022 2:57 am
bahman wrote: ↑Mon Jun 27, 2022 9:00 pm
If He is God He could certainly convince the judge and doesn't get the punishment, the cross.
bahman, you silly billy. It was ALWAYS his intention to allow himself to be sacrificed.
Could you make a logical connection between God's sacrifice and solving the problem of original sin?
Re: How come Jesus could not convince the Judge?
Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2022 4:39 pm
by Angelo Cannata
bahman wrote: ↑Tue Jun 28, 2022 3:21 pm
Believing in something that is illogical is not acceptable to me.
I guess you mean that you agree with my conclusion.
Re: How come Jesus could not convince the Judge?
Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2022 4:54 pm
by bahman
Angelo Cannata wrote: ↑Tue Jun 28, 2022 4:39 pm
bahman wrote: ↑Tue Jun 28, 2022 3:21 pm
Believing in something that is illogical is not acceptable to me.
I guess you mean that you agree with my conclusion.
Yes.
Re: How come Jesus could not convince the Judge?
Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2022 8:56 pm
by Iwannaplato
attofishpi wrote: ↑Tue Jun 28, 2022 9:17 am
Plausible, but I doubt it. God has got more bollocks than that for the message.
It may not be the message, but it Jesus is an incarnate God, then his sacrifice in terms of suffering is small compared to sexually abused children, people who are tortured, people who live in malnutrition level poverty and so on. First it did not last that long, second he was God. The kinds of mental torture that go along with physical suffering would certainly have been minimized. There are signs that he did suffer some of this, but not to the degree humans will and they will suffer much longer. This is not to dismiss as nothing what he is purported to have gone through, but in the scheme of horrible experiences It probably wouldn't come with the top 100,000,000 deaths. Can a deity of the Abrahamic kind truly sacrifice? I don't think so.
But i agree with the idea that he intended or went willingly to his death or at least crucifixion. Not that I think this was a good idea.
Re: How come Jesus could not convince the Judge?
Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2022 9:17 pm
by Angelo Cannata
Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Tue Jun 28, 2022 8:56 pm
attofishpi wrote: ↑Tue Jun 28, 2022 9:17 am
Plausible, but I doubt it. God has got more bollocks than that for the message.
It may not be the message, but it Jesus is an incarnate God, then his sacrifice in terms of suffering is small compared to sexually abused children, people who are tortured, people who live in malnutrition level poverty and so on. First it did not last that long, second he was God. The kinds of mental torture that go along with physical suffering would certainly have been minimized. There are signs that he did suffer some of this, but not to the degree humans will and they will suffer much longer. This is not to dismiss as nothing what he is purported to have gone through, but in the scheme of horrible experiences It probably wouldn't come with the top 100,000,000 deaths. Can a deity of the Abrahamic kind truly sacrifice? I don't think so.
But i agree with the idea that he intended or went willingly to his death or at least crucifixion. Not that I think this was a good idea.
It might be worth clarifying that the value of Jesus’ sacrifice is not to be measured according to the amount of his suffering: this just wouldn’t make sense. We cannot think that God thought “Ok, humanity sin was 1000 kg (or metres, or litres), then I want an equivalent amount of suffering from my child Jesus”. It doesn’t make sense thinking of salvation in terms of amount of suffering, that is, Jesus having saved us just because he suffered. A much better approach is in terms of ability to make humans different: Jesus’ sacrifice has a value because it is to be conceived as able to make people different, able to open them a way of true elevation of life, against the grade of being just immersed, stuck in sin. Any amount of suffering wouldn’t have any value if it is unable to open any change to humanity.
The same applies to Jesus not preventing his death: we cannot think of it in the same price-paying nonsense mentality. A better idea is that he understood that he had to face his death because he thought that it was the will of his father and that this would have created the salvation event I described here.
I know that the price-paying mentality has been and still is widely present in religious people, but they just don’t think, don’t reflect, don’t realise that it doesn’t make sense and that there are much better ways how to conceive it.
