Philosophy Now Forum

Are there any ethical vegans on this forum, particularly couples, and if so, how does veganism influence your life in both a practical sense and a philosophical one?

Veganman wrote: ↑Sat Mar 12, 2022 5:42 pm Are there any ethical vegans on this forum, particularly couples, and if so, how does veganism influence your life in both a practical sense and a philosophical one?

It's possible, but I wouldn't expect so. You get enough abuse being a vegetarian.
From the less-than perspective: We have learned about a lot of foods we never knew before and adapted our ethnic cuisine to exclude meat, so it's been a long, pleasant adventure in culinary creativity. Philosophically, I think it solidifies what was initially no more than sentiment and inclination into a world-view. Practically, it's cheaper, healthier and less fattening.

Skip wrote: ↑Sun Mar 13, 2022 6:45 am

Veganman wrote: ↑Sat Mar 12, 2022 5:42 pm Are there any ethical vegans on this forum, particularly couples, and if so, how does veganism influence your life in both a practical sense and a philosophical one?

It's possible, but I wouldn't expect so. You get enough abuse being a vegetarian.
From the less-than perspective: We have learned about a lot of foods we never knew before and adapted our ethnic cuisine to exclude meat, so it's been a long, pleasant adventure in culinary creativity. Philosophically, I think it solidifies what was initially no more than sentiment and inclination into a world-view. Practically, it's cheaper, healthier and less fattening.

Out of curiosity, what is that "world-view?"

It's been a while since I visited here. Maybe too long to answer this question. But I'll try.
Other animals fit snugly, perfectly and permanently into the world that they live in - whether they like it or not.
We humans don't. We have too much imagination too much power and too many choices for a simple fit. We see ourselves and the world in various ways, and we are to remake our world(s), both conceptually and physically.
For two of us atheist white-collar workers with pretty good educations, and an inclination to compassion and tolerance, the vegetarian route was more or less the inevitable one. When you understand that every other creature with a heart-beat is very much like you, you can't help knowing that they all feel the same fear and hope, anger and joy that you do. When you believe that putting good into the world is preferable (for your own welfare and integrity, as well as the environment in which you live) to putting evil into that world, you figure out ways to reduce the harm you inflict on other life-forms. It just all works better that way.

here's my situation. i like eating meat and would never be able to stop eating it unless i wasn't able to get it. BUT i like the idea of vegetarianism and could live with it if in some possible universe an earth existed where it was illegal to eat meat. i think i could do it no problem. but i can't give up dairy or eggs.

so i could and would do it if i were forced, and haven't the willpower to stop eating meat on my own because bacon tastes good. pork chops taste good

Anyway what would become of the species that are bred strictly for eating? What would we do with the pigs if one day legislation passed a law prohibiting the slaughter of livestock? What, just let em go... run off into the woods or sumthin?

Skip wrote: ↑Sat Aug 13, 2022 5:25 am It's been a while since I visited here. Maybe too long to answer this question. But I'll try.
Other animals fit snugly, perfectly and permanently into the world that they live in - whether they like it or not.
We humans don't. We have too much imagination too much power and too many choices for a simple fit. We see ourselves and the world in various ways, and we are to remake our world(s), both conceptually and physically.
For two of us atheist white-collar workers with pretty good educations, and an inclination to compassion and tolerance, the vegetarian route was more or less the inevitable one. When you understand that every other creature with a heart-beat is very much like you, you can't help knowing that they all feel the same fear and hope, anger and joy that you do. When you believe that putting good into the world is preferable (for your own welfare and integrity, as well as the environment in which you live) to putting evil into that world, you figure out ways to reduce the harm you inflict on other life-forms. It just all works better that way.

I'm not a vegan, or even a vegetarian, but I really like the way you have put that.

Thank you.

promethean75 wrote: ↑Sat Aug 13, 2022 10:58 am so i could and would do it if i were forced, and haven't the willpower to stop eating meat on my own because bacon tastes good. pork chops taste good

IOW - the reason for all destructive behaviour: could stop but won't, 'cose I like it
That was the reason for much of our past suffering, is the reason for our present fear and loathing and it will be the reason for our end.

Anyway what would become of the species that are bred strictly for eating? What would we do with the pigs if one day legislation passed a law prohibiting the slaughter of livestock? What, just let em go... run off into the woods or sumthin?

That's a crock and I'm pretty sure you know it's a crock, because you put it right in the first sentence: bred strictly for eating.
Nothing suddenly comes to a screeching halt because one day some government passes a legislation. It would be a long, step by step, industry by industry, practice by practice, species by species process. Longer than the lifetime of the average cow (5 years - the natural life-span of cattle being about 20 years) much longer than the life-span of the average pig (6 months - their natural life-span being 15-20 years) and way far longer than the average chicken (6-8 weeks - their natural span being 6-10 years) So you really needn't worry about any food-animals having to be set free into the wild to become prey for coyotes and cougars. You just have to stop force-breeding them (while the farmer figures out what alternate source of protein best grows on his land), and they will all go extinct within 30 years, even with excellent retirement plans.
Moreover, you can keep eating eggs without necessarily hurting any chickens, simply by not having roosters in the range they inhabit. This is what most egg-farmers do - saves a whole lot of time and trouble on candling for embryos. Customers, even the ones who love the taste of skinlessbonelesschickenbreast (there isn't any, which is why it needs 11 herbs and spices) don't like semi-formed baby chickens plopping into their breakfast frying pan next to the bacon.
You can even keep the dairy products by artificially inducing lactation in non-pregnant cows, or restricting their reproduction to female calves, but that's more complicated.
And you can keep your bacon through modern technology https://gfi.org/science/the-science-of-cultivated-meat/, the price of which will go down when demand goes up. (But I doubt if there's time, because we could give up fossil fuels, but won't, 'cose we like it)

Somebody mentioned breakfast.

Eggs (on toast), bacon, sausages, black-pudding maybe a fried tomato, mushrooms...yum. A glass of orange juice, and a nice cup of tea.

When I was in the US, I actually quite liked the maple syrup and pancakes with the above (i was suprised initially, but ya yum)

Veganism is not an ideal way to live.
Humans do not have very long digestive systems to plough through all that fibre, and do much better of food that they are adapted to eat,

Speaking as a North European, my ancestors had a complete lack of access to quinoa, lentils, and other Vegan dishes. They had to rely on mostly meat and fish, eggs and seafood. These were readily available with a bit of effort and highly nutritious providing all their bodies needed,


Luckily, long before arable agriculture my ancestors discovered how to corral herbivores to use their milk, so that they were able to utilise the grasslands using herbivores as proxy. Milk is pretty much a complete food.
Blessed are the cheese makers.


The vegetation that Vegans now rely on has only existed for a few thousand years, and only available to my ancestors for a couple of 100 years. We are not well adapted to eating that stuff so we have modified the plants to grow larger. This was basically forced on us by the specialist caste of priests and warriors that enslaved the populace to grow wheat, whilst the leaders continued to eat beef.
Where it all started in Catal Huyel the Bull was revered, and whilst the poor suffered on bread the upper hierarchy dined on cheese and beef,

The Vegan diet is deficient in many of the most basic essential nutrients and it requires the taking of supplements to get healthy.

I thought it worth thinking about the impact of meat re the climate debate.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGG-A80Tl5g

Sculptor wrote: ↑Sun Aug 14, 2022 11:16 am Veganism is not an ideal way to live.
Humans do not have very long digestive systems to plough through all that fibre, and do much better of food that they are adapted to eat,

Not 100% accurate, that. https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-life ... t-20048193

Speaking as a North European, my ancestors had a complete lack of access to quinoa, lentils, and other Vegan dishes.

Also to aspirin, appendectomy, indoor plumbing, car travel and literacy. Therefore, we are not well adapted to use these things.

They had to rely on mostly meat and fish, eggs and seafood. These were readily available with a bit of effort and highly nutritious providing all their bodies needed, Luckily, long before arable agriculture my ancestors discovered how to corral herbivores to use their milk, so that they were able to utilise the grasslands using herbivores as proxy. Milk is pretty much a complete food.

And the grasslands of Scandinavia are something to behold, indeed! How many ancestors, as compared to how many reindeer and musk oxen? What are the proportional populations now?

Blessed are the cheese makers.

Not before agriculture.

The vegetation that Vegans now rely on has only existed for a few thousand years, and only available to my ancestors for a couple of 100 years.

The specific strains of farm crops, as well as the specific strains of domestic animals have been modified over the centuries, but grains, root crops and and pulses have been available to human populations for ~ 6000 years and Northern Europeans for 500+, what with trade routes and conquests, and I guess if I can make the transition, thanks to the miracle of modern technology, in 10 years, I suppose even a Northern European can manage it in 10 generations. Yes, it seems they can! https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/cou ... anism.html

The Vegan diet is deficient in many of the most basic essential nutrients and it requires the taking of supplements to get healthy.

Luckily, unlike our distant ancestors, we do have food supplements. https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/7- ... for-vegans, which many of us take, even if we stuff ourselves with super-healthy hummingbird's tongue roasted inside a canary, inside a pheasant, inside a lamb, inside a pig, inside a steer, with yak-cheese for afters.

Skip wrote: ↑Sun Aug 14, 2022 2:56 pm

Sculptor wrote: ↑Sun Aug 14, 2022 11:16 am Veganism is not an ideal way to live.
Humans do not have very long digestive systems to plough through all that fibre, and do much better of food that they are adapted to eat,

Not 100% accurate, that. https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-life ... t-20048193

I do not take evolutionary advice from the Mayo clinic.

Speaking as a North European, my ancestors had a complete lack of access to quinoa, lentils, and other Vegan dishes.

Also to aspirin, appendectomy, indoor plumbing, car travel and literacy. Therefore, we are not well adapted to use these things.

Nothing to do with Veganism so utterly irrelevant

They had to rely on mostly meat and fish, eggs and seafood. These were readily available with a bit of effort and highly nutritious providing all their bodies needed, Luckily, long before arable agriculture my ancestors discovered how to corral herbivores to use their milk, so that they were able to utilise the grasslands using herbivores as proxy. Milk is pretty much a complete food.

And the grasslands of Scandinavia are something to behold, indeed! How many ancestors, as compared to how many reindeer and musk oxen? What are the proportional populations now?

Nothing to do with Veganism so utterly irrelevant

Blessed are the cheese makers.

Not before agriculture.

Pastoralism came thousands of year before agriculture.

The vegetation that Vegans now rely on has only existed for a few thousand years, and only available to my ancestors for a couple of 100 years.

The specific strains of farm crops, as well as the specific strains of domestic animals have been modified over the centuries, but grains, root crops and and pulses have been available to human populations for ~ 6000 years and Northern Europeans for 500+, what with trade routes and conquests,

No where near long enough for adaptations.

and I guess if I can make the transition, thanks to the miracle of modern technology, in 10 years, I suppose even a Northern European can manage it in 10 generations. Yes, it seems they can! https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/cou ... anism.html

The Vegan diet is deficient in many of the most basic essential nutrients and it requires the taking of supplements to get healthy.

Luckily, unlike our distant ancestors, we do have food supplements. https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/7- ... for-vegans, which many of us take, even if we stuff ourselves with super-healthy hummingbird's tongue roasted inside a canary, inside a pheasant, inside a lamb, inside a pig, inside a steer, with yak-cheese for afters.

PS you are confusing vegetarianism with Veganism.
I suggest you look up Veganism

Skip wrote: ↑Sat Aug 13, 2022 5:25 am It's been a while since I visited here. Maybe too long to answer this question. But I'll try.
Other animals fit snugly, perfectly and permanently into the world that they live in - whether they like it or not.
We humans don't. We have too much imagination too much power and too many choices for a simple fit. We see ourselves and the world in various ways, and we are to remake our world(s), both conceptually and physically.
For two of us atheist white-collar workers with pretty good educations, and an inclination to compassion and tolerance, the vegetarian route was more or less the inevitable one. When you understand that every other creature with a heart-beat is very much like you, you can't help knowing that they all feel the same fear and hope, anger and joy that you do. When you believe that putting good into the world is preferable (for your own welfare and integrity, as well as the environment in which you live) to putting evil into that world, you figure out ways to reduce the harm you inflict on other life-forms. It just all works better that way.

Buddhism has adapted to northern climates where plant food is unavailable. This indicates that dietary restrictions are not the root of Buddhism, which is something that those who equate Buddhism and veganism, should consider when making moral justifications.

Walker wrote: ↑Sun Aug 14, 2022 4:40 pm Buddhism has adapted to northern climates where plant food is unavailable. This indicates that dietary restrictions are not the root of Buddhism, which is something that those who equate Buddhism and veganism, should consider when making moral justifications.

And? I don't recall mentioning a religion in the context of dietary options.