What is the point of Higher Education?

[Sculptor]

Immanuel Can wrote:

Nowadays, liberal education is just the mistake of paying to have your children indoctrinated in Leftist political ideology, and turned into little racists and whiners who have no concept of the past (nor any use for it) and no vision for the future but whatever they have been taught by their indoctrinators.

It is certainly not indoctrination when you are required by a teacher to examine you own confirmation bias.

It seems Immanuel Cant has not had the benefits of any Higher Education and gets his information, presumably from the Daily Mail, or similar media.

[Belinda]

Immanuel Can wrote:

Nowadays, liberal education is just the mistake of paying to have your children indoctrinated in Leftist political ideology, and turned into little racists and whiners who have no concept of the past (nor any use for it) and no vision for the future but whatever they have been taught by their indoctrinators.

It is certainly not indoctrination when you are required by a teacher to examine you own confirmation bias.

It seems Immanuel Cant has not had the benefits of any Higher Education and gets his information, presumably from the Daily Mail, or similar media.

I guess Mandy Rice Davies used her native wit when she observed "He would say that wouldn't he."

[Sculptor]

Immanuel Can wrote:



It is certainly not indoctrination when you are required by a teacher to examine you own confirmation bias.

It seems Immanuel Cant has not had the benefits of any Higher Education and gets his information, presumably from the Daily Mail, or similar media.

I guess Mandy Rice Davies used her native wit when she observed "He would say that wouldn't he."

Cant never fails to be utterly predictable.
I imagine that this image would sum up Can't self image.

PROFUMO

image_2022-02-02_220359.png (62.4 KiB) Viewed 927 times

[owl of Minerva]

The educational system is similar to the internet. It has content and supplies information without regard to values or encouraging an open-minded stance while being immune to control or manipulation. It does not impart a how-to-live intelligence or how to fast forward past a developmental stage a student may be stuck in. For example a social frat-boy persona that fails to exhibit gravities in situations that requires it.

Neither does it impart how to deal with global ideologues who come from outside, from another country, with a far-right ideology whilst holding citizenship in yet a third country. Globalists who can exit a culture anytime they feel like it, not an easy option for the average person.

As with the worldwide web information is not enough. What stance should be taken in relation to it, assimilating it without question is no longer enough. Those days are gone we no longer live in a localized world, it is all global now. And the Oligarchs appear to hold all the cards, manipulating politics and cultures.

[Sculptor]

The educational system is similar to the internet. It has content and supplies information without regard to values or encouraging an open-minded stance while being immune to control or manipulation.

This looks like the words of a person that was never educated.

It does not impart a how-to-live intelligence or how to fast forward past a developmental stage a student may be stuck in. For example a social frat-boy persona that fails to exhibit gravities in situations that requires it.

Neither does it impart how to deal with global ideologues who come from outside, from another country, with a far-right ideology whilst holding citizenship in yet a third country. Globalists who can exit a culture anytime they feel like it, not an easy option for the average person.

As with the worldwide web information is not enough. What stance should be taken in relation to it, assimilating it without question is no longer enough. Those days are gone we no longer live in a localized world, it is all global now. And the Oligarchs appear to hold all the cards, manipulating politics and cultures.

[Alexis Jacobi]

The American establishment have very cleverly undermined the power of the workers by engineering a situation where socialism is a four letter word, thereby clowns like Simple are participating in their own oppression.

Whilst they blame immigrants, blacks, Mexicans, and Democrats the elites are laughing all the way to the bank, ending everything that has been gained since 1900 working rights, sick pay, pensions, -- its all going, going gone.

I think that what you have written makes a certain sense but that some clarification is needed.

You are very right to say that *the establishment* exercises control over the discourse, and always tries to control the terms of discourse. And it also is true that the American establishment (industrial capital, etc.) takes hard stands against organized labor and against providing many of the benefits that are more fair and certainly better for the workers, their families, etc.

And it is also fair to say that the notion of 'worker's rights' and 'benefits' and what makes a working person's life better and more tolerable is associated with 'socialism' and 'communism' and that working people are often tricked by those elites in the establishment so as not to be able to distinguish well their real interests. So they are manipulated in ways that end up screwing themselves.

So far so good.

But the same 'elites' use immigration, and obviously the flood of illegal immigrants from the South, to lower the cost of labor. This works against the indigenous worker, obviously, and against organized labor which has always opposed immigrant labor if it displaces indigenous labor, weakens the worker's position, etc.

There is also the aspect of flooding the country with many many millions of people who come not to participate as citizens, but as people looking for financial opportunity. Often they maintain their *cultural identities* and do not seem to want to *become Americans*. And this is something I can attest to. One because I have lived very close to immigrant communities in the States (mostly Mexican but Mesoamerican generally), and I now live in Colombia and know dozens of people who have spoken of their experience as immigrants, often illegal (working under the table or with a false SS number).

So another problem is the way the demographic shift leads to a sort of denaturing of the country. Something to be concerned about.

I am curious what you think of this particular expose (unsure what to call it) by Tucker Carlson. It seems to me sui generis. It is nothing at all, in any sense, like former Republican propaganda. It takes aim at vulture capitalists who undermine not just the stability of a given worker but entire communities. I have to admit that I am unable to place this in any ideological camp that I am familiar with. It is classically 'progressive' (in the original American sense of the word).

It is kind of mind-bending.

It seems very very true that there are deep institutional battles going on in the US today. It is very hard to *see* clearly what is going on. Vast power is engaged in struggles with other vast powers. Everything seems obscured and difficult to sort through.

And the American Left? Once they were the ones who stood behind the American worker and the American worker family. They were anti-war generally, pro-community, deeply suspicious of capital interests, critical of *corporations* and the power exerted by corporations over government. But now? The roles seem like they are reversing.

What in the heck does the Democrat Party stand for? I am unable to discern.

So how do we sort through all of this?

[owl of Minerva]

The educational system is similar to the internet. It has content and supplies information without regard to values or encouraging an open-minded stance while being immune to control or manipulation.

This looks like the words of a person that was never educated.

It does not impart a how-to-live intelligence or how to fast forward past a developmental stage a student may be stuck in. For example a social frat-boy persona that fails to exhibit gravities in situations that requires it.

Neither does it impart how to deal with global ideologues who come from outside, from another country, with a far-right ideology whilst holding citizenship in yet a third country. Globalists who can exit a culture anytime they feel like it, not an easy option for the average person.

As with the worldwide web information is not enough. What stance should be taken in relation to it, assimilating it without question is no longer enough. Those days are gone we no longer live in a localized world, it is all global now. And the Oligarchs appear to hold all the cards, manipulating politics and cultures.

Are you saying only the uneducated are closed-minded and subject to control and manipulation. The educated are uniformly open-minded and beyond influence of any kind? Is that uniformly the case in your opinion?

[Sculptor]

The educational system is similar to the internet. It has content and supplies information without regard to values or encouraging an open-minded stance while being immune to control or manipulation.

This looks like the words of a person that was never educated.

It does not impart a how-to-live intelligence or how to fast forward past a developmental stage a student may be stuck in. For example a social frat-boy persona that fails to exhibit gravities in situations that requires it.

Neither does it impart how to deal with global ideologues who come from outside, from another country, with a far-right ideology whilst holding citizenship in yet a third country. Globalists who can exit a culture anytime they feel like it, not an easy option for the average person.

As with the worldwide web information is not enough. What stance should be taken in relation to it, assimilating it without question is no longer enough. Those days are gone we no longer live in a localized world, it is all global now. And the Oligarchs appear to hold all the cards, manipulating politics and cultures.

Are you saying only the uneducated are closed-minded and subject to control and manipulation. The educated are uniformly open-minded and beyond influence of any kind? Is that uniformly the case in your opinion?

Are you saying...
No. I am saying exactly what I wanted to say and not what you wanted me to say.
I was responding to what YOU had said. I was not making any generalisations.

[owl of Minerva]

This looks like the words of a person that was never educated.

Are you saying only the uneducated are closed-minded and subject to control and manipulation. The educated are uniformly open-minded and beyond influence of any kind? Is that uniformly the case in your opinion?

Are you saying...
No. I am saying exactly what I wanted to say and not what you wanted me to say.
I was responding to what YOU had said. I was not making any generalisations.

What you said was “This looks like the words of a person that was never educated.” I would change ‘that’ to ‘who’ to begin with.
Secondly, this is the same old invective to the point of being tiresome. No comment on the rest of the post; a snide remark does it.

The purpose of an education; higher or lower, in addition to imparting information, should be to evolve the student past the various stages of development to mature adulthood. If the purpose of this forum is an exchange of ideas, it is met only by participants who adhere to that standard.

As I said in a previous post: Adios, Au Renoir, Sayonara, Goodbye. Tried one more time but no more fruitful than a dialogue would be with either Xi or Kim; no openness there, so why expect it.

[Belinda]

Sculpture wrote:

The purpose of an education; higher or lower, in addition to imparting information, should be to evolve the student past the various stages of development to mature adulthood. If the purpose of this forum is an exchange of ideas, it is met only by participants who adhere to that standard.

Well said. From what Sculpture wrote I infer the difference between education and indoctrination.

[Ansiktsburk]

How did you do?

Only guy that wasn’t a nerd, with a couple of years daytime work before starting, that made it through tech school so not too bad. Point 3 was the key. To study amongst people who also liked to learn things made all the difference. Wish I got that earlier but that was not where I grew up. But I havent done harder maths than multiplication since so all those math exams were really sudokus. And sudokus matter. Point 2. But point 4 was maybe most prominent. Married an intelligent upper upper middle class girl and got into a place where people care about stuff as philosophy. She also earns more money than I do with is convenient.

I was mainly enquiring about the issue mentioned in the first post; traditional verses self critical teaching, and whether or not you found good or bad lecturers in that respect. What subject did you study?

Maths and computers and some uninteresting physics stuff that we had to do to become civil engineers. Very traditional learning. Lecturer filled 50 boards with equations in an hour and you had to keep up. No questions askes. Computers were better, a wider variety of educators, different styles. But well, not that special. Many years later, having moved to tinseltown I took a evening time university course in ”idéhistoria” at the local university, after work. That would translate to History of ideas, don’t know what that is in UK or US universitys. It was roughly a history of world views from Thales to Einstein like. Anyhow - There we can start talking about inspiring educators. Everyone was highly spirited talking about Plato, Enlightenment or whatever. That was really where my interest in philosophy started off. Just the enthusisasm of the lecturers was enough to get one interested.

[Ansiktsburk]

Sculpture wrote:

The purpose of an education; higher or lower, in addition to imparting information, should be to evolve the student past the various stages of development to mature adulthood. If the purpose of this forum is an exchange of ideas, it is met only by participants who adhere to that standard.

Well said. From what Sculpture wrote I infer the difference between education and indoctrination.

Sounds a bit upper classy. However, these days commoners with brains also do university.

[Ansiktsburk]

The American establishment have very cleverly undermined the power of the workers by engineering a situation where socialism is a four letter word, thereby clowns like Simple are participating in their own oppression.

Whilst they blame immigrants, blacks, Mexicans, and Democrats the elites are laughing all the way to the bank, ending everything that has been gained since 1900 working rights, sick pay, pensions, -- its all going, going gone.

I think that what you have written makes a certain sense but that some clarification is needed.

You are very right to say that *the establishment* exercises control over the discourse, and always tries to control the terms of discourse. And it also is true that the American establishment (industrial capital, etc.) takes hard stands against organized labor and against providing many of the benefits that are more fair and certainly better for the workers, their families, etc.

And it is also fair to say that the notion of 'worker's rights' and 'benefits' and what makes a working person's life better and more tolerable is associated with 'socialism' and 'communism' and that working people are often tricked by those elites in the establishment so as not to be able to distinguish well their real interests. So they are manipulated in ways that end up screwing themselves.

So far so good.

But the same 'elites' use immigration, and obviously the flood of illegal immigrants from the South, to lower the cost of labor. This works against the indigenous worker, obviously, and against organized labor which has always opposed immigrant labor if it displaces indigenous labor, weakens the worker's position, etc.

There is also the aspect of flooding the country with many many millions of people who come not to participate as citizens, but as people looking for financial opportunity. Often they maintain their *cultural identities* and do not seem to want to *become Americans*. And this is something I can attest to. One because I have lived very close to immigrant communities in the States (mostly Mexican but Mesoamerican generally), and I now live in Colombia and know dozens of people who have spoken of their experience as immigrants, often illegal (working under the table or with a false SS number).

So another problem is the way the demographic shift leads to a sort of denaturing of the country. Something to be concerned about.

I am curious what you think of this particular expose (unsure what to call it) by Tucker Carlson. It seems to me sui generis. It is nothing at all, in any sense, like former Republican propaganda. It takes aim at vulture capitalists who undermine not just the stability of a given worker but entire communities. I have to admit that I am unable to place this in any ideological camp that I am familiar with. It is classically 'progressive' (in the original American sense of the word).

It is kind of mind-bending.

It seems very very true that there are deep institutional battles going on in the US today. It is very hard to *see* clearly what is going on. Vast power is engaged in struggles with other vast powers. Everything seems obscured and difficult to sort through.

And the American Left? Once they were the ones who stood behind the American worker and the American worker family. They were anti-war generally, pro-community, deeply suspicious of capital interests, critical of *corporations* and the power exerted by corporations over government. But now? The roles seem like they are reversing.

What in the heck does the Democrat Party stand for? I am unable to discern.

So how do we sort through all of this?

Discussions like this are not exclusive to the US of A

[Belinda]

Sculpture wrote:

The purpose of an education; higher or lower, in addition to imparting information, should be to evolve the student past the various stages of development to mature adulthood. If the purpose of this forum is an exchange of ideas, it is met only by participants who adhere to that standard.

Well said. From what Sculpture wrote I infer the difference between education and indoctrination.

Sounds a bit upper classy. However, these days commoners with brains also do university.

Come the revolution all commoners will receive tertiary education.

[Sculptor]

Only guy that wasn’t a nerd, with a couple of years daytime work before starting, that made it through tech school so not too bad. Point 3 was the key. To study amongst people who also liked to learn things made all the difference. Wish I got that earlier but that was not where I grew up. But I havent done harder maths than multiplication since so all those math exams were really sudokus. And sudokus matter. Point 2. But point 4 was maybe most prominent. Married an intelligent upper upper middle class girl and got into a place where people care about stuff as philosophy. She also earns more money than I do with is convenient.

I was mainly enquiring about the issue mentioned in the first post; traditional verses self critical teaching, and whether or not you found good or bad lecturers in that respect. What subject did you study?

Maths and computers and some uninteresting physics stuff that we had to do to become civil engineers. Very traditional learning. Lecturer filled 50 boards with equations in an hour and you had to keep up. No questions askes. Computers were better, a wider variety of educators, different styles. But well, not that special. Many years later, having moved to tinseltown I took a evening time university course in ”idéhistoria” at the local university, after work. That would translate to History of ideas, don’t know what that is in UK or US universitys. It was roughly a history of world views from Thales to Einstein like. Anyhow - There we can start talking about inspiring educators. Everyone was highly spirited talking about Plato, Enlightenment or whatever. That was really where my interest in philosophy started off. Just the enthusisasm of the lecturers was enough to get one interested.

Ah - I see. Not too much room for wide reaching interpretations with computers etc.. I did some of that in the early days.

As for the History if Ideas, I took Masters in 2009 in Intellectual History at Sussex, where, I understand it has descended into a religion of The Enlightenment, and whilst I was hoping to engage in self critical, post modern thinking I found it a little too narrow.
The BA I did in 1992-95 in Archaeology and Anciet History was far more open minded.