JK Rowling vs. History

[Immanuel Can]

a. The man who says, "everyone lies sometimes," is a liar.

The opposite is true.

The man who says "Everyone lies sometimes" has, for the moment, told a truth.

[mickthinks]

The questions stand or fall on their own ...

On their own they fall, I think.

[Immanuel Can]

The questions stand or fall on their own ...

On their own they fall, I think.

I see.

So you think Rachel Dolezal can't be black, people who "transable" themselves are ... what? Mentally ill? Or just fine? And you think you can identify as a salmon or a rhodedendron?

[Gary Childress]

it may be realistic for a paraplegic not to be a firefighter but it's probably not a very healthy thing to run around telling paraplegics, "hey, you're paraplegic and you'll never amount to anything."

No, but neither is it healthy to cater to the paraplegic who insists he can be a firefighter or who demands, by way of the courts, to be a firefighter, or that, in fact, he is a firefighter.

Joe Paraplegic may be a fine man, but he isn't, can't be, a firefighter, or a woman.

Well, I don't think a paraplegic suing in court to be a firefighter is realistic. I don't think a trans woman wanting to compete in female sports is fair and I don't think a person should use a restroom based solely on the mere statement that they "identify" as the opposite sex. However, I think some accommodations can be reasonably made in other less disruptive circumstances. For example, if someone wants to be referred to as the opposite sex in social circles, then that's fine. It's not disruptive to society at large, I don't think. but I think they should participate in society at large in the ways they are expected to participate in order to maintain fair and reasonable social practices.

Would you agree with this, Henry?

[Immanuel Can]

I think some accommodations can be reasonably made in other circumstances.

But Gary, that begs the main question, and the only one that really matters, to tell the truth. That question is, "What is 'transi-sm'?"

If it's a pretext for destroying women's sports, or if it's some other form of dishonesty, such as a way of being able to troll washrooms to assault women or to gain privileges and opportunity to rape on women's prisons, then no "accommodation" to that is good at all, obviously. To "accommodate" the marginalization, exploitation, exclusion, rape or brutalization of women would never be a right thing to do, under any cirucumstances -- as I'm sure you'd agree.

But what if trans-ism is a mental illness? If it is, is it kindness to "accommodate" it? If a man sees zombies coming to kill him, do we "accommodate" his delusions or work to free him from them? What is the merciful and decent thing to do for the mentally ill? Clearly, it's to do all we can to deliver them from their suffering -- not to make their suffering "normal" or "mainstream," right? Again, I wouldn't expect you not to agree.

Only if trans-ism is some sort of natural state would we think we should maybe "accommodate" some of it. But what "natural state" is that? Is it really natural not to know you're a man or a woman, and is it more "natural" than to think oneself black when one is white (Dolezal), or to think oneself an emu or an eggplant? So it's really impossible to make the case that it's anything "natural" going on. Some other explanation would be needed.

On what grounds would we think, then, that "accommodating" it was ever the right thing to do?

[henry quirk]

Well, I don't think a paraplegic suing in court to be a firefighter is realistic.

It's not. Neither is it realistic for a man to sue to be recognized or declared a woman.


I don't think a trans woman wanting to compete in female sports is fair and I don't think a person should use a restroom based solely on the mere statement that they "identify" as the opposite sex.

Indeed. A man (and that's what a trans-woman is, a man) ought to compete against men and when he needs to piss he ought to use the men's room.


However, I think some accommodations can be reasonably made in other circumstances. For example, if someone wants to be referred to as the opposite sex in social circles, then that's fine.

I won't do that, Gary. I won't call Joe, Josephine, when I know he is, in fact Joe.


It's not disruptive to society at large, I don't think.

Pretendin' a man is a woman is just a flat-out lie; it's goin' along to get along. I ain't doin' it.


but I think they should participate in society at large in the ways they are expected to participate in order to maintain fair and reasonable social practices.

I think they should do whatever the hell it is they think they have to.

Wanna pretend to be a girl? Go right ahead (but do yourself a favor and disabuse yourself of the idea anyone is obligated to pretend along with you).

[Gary Childress]

I think some accommodations can be reasonably made in other circumstances.

But Gary, that begs the main question, and the only one that really matters, to tell the truth. That question is, "What is 'transi-sm'?"

If it's a pretext for destroying women's sports, or if it's some other form of dishonesty, such as a way of being able to troll washrooms to assault women or to gain privileges and opportunity to rape on women's prisons, then no "accommodation" to that is good at all, obviously. To "accommodate" the marginalization, exploitation, exclusion, rape or brutalization of women would never be a right thing to do, under any cirucumstances -- as I'm sure you'd agree.

But what if trans-ism is a mental illness? If it is, is it kindness to "accommodate" it? If a man sees zombies coming to kill him, do we "accommodate" his delusions or work to free him from them? What is the merciful and decent thing to do for the mentally ill? Clearly, it's to do all we can to deliver them from their suffering -- not to make their suffering "normal" or "mainstream," right? Again, I wouldn't expect you not to agree.

Only if trans-ism is some sort of natural state would we think we should maybe "accommodate" some of it. But what "natural state" is that? Is it really natural not to know you're a man or a woman, and is it more "natural" than to think oneself black when one is white (Dolezal), or to think oneself an emu or an eggplant? So it's really impossible to make the case that it's anything "natural" going on. Some other explanation would be needed.

On what grounds would we think, then, that "accommodating" it was ever the right thing to do?

I suppose some people perhaps could and perhaps do fake it but I've met a couple of people who stated they had gender dysphoria and the ones I've met seemed to be on the level. I mean, why would anyone put themselves through all the persecution and sour looks if they could avoid it and just be "normal"?

[Gary Childress]

However, I think some accommodations can be reasonably made in other circumstances. For example, if someone wants to be referred to as the opposite sex in social circles, then that's fine.

I won't do that, Gary. I won't call Joe, Josephine, when I know he is, in fact Joe.

I hear you. That's fine to me. I'm not much worried about your beliefs. Personally, I just try to be accommodating because I prefer to get along with people. As long as someone doesn't want me to call them "your lordship" or something else that would be unreasonably humiliating to me, then I'm usually fine with their request. It's no skin off my back.

[henry quirk]

However, I think some accommodations can be reasonably made in other circumstances. For example, if someone wants to be referred to as the opposite sex in social circles, then that's fine.

I won't do that, Gary. I won't call Joe, Josephine, when I know he is, in fact Joe.

I hear you. That's fine to me. I'm not much worried about your beliefs. Personally, I just try to be accommodating because I prefer to get along with people. As long as someone doesn't want me to call them "your lordship" or something else that would be unreasonably humiliating to me, then I'm usually fine with their request. It's no skin off my back.

Hey, I'm all for folks doin' whatever it is they need to to get thru their day.

If Joe really needs to wear a skirt and think of himself as a girl, then that's exactly what Joe ought to do. And if you need to, I guess, respect Joe's choice, then that's exactly what you ought to do.

Me, I'm content to leave folks to their idiosyncrasies (till they get in my face and give me grief about why I won't call him, her...it's happened...I try and avoid it, but there's a limit to how much navigatin' around a subject a person can be expected to do).

[Gary Childress]

However, I think some accommodations can be reasonably made in other circumstances. For example, if someone wants to be referred to as the opposite sex in social circles, then that's fine.

I won't do that, Gary. I won't call Joe, Josephine, when I know he is, in fact Joe.

I hear you. That's fine to me. I'm not much worried about your beliefs. Personally, I just try to be accommodating because I prefer to get along with people. As long as someone doesn't want me to call them "your lordship" or something else that would be unreasonably humiliating to me, then I'm usually fine with their request. It's no skin off my back.

Hey, I'm all for folks doin' whatever it is they need to to get thru their day.

If Joe really needs to wear a skirt and think of himself as a girl, then that's exactly what Joe ought to do. And if you need to, I guess, respect Joe's choice, then that's exactly what you ought to do.

Me, I'm content to leave folks to their idiosyncrasies (till they get in my face and give me grief about why I won't call him, her...it's happened...I try and avoid it, but there's a limit to how much navigatin' around a subject a person can be expected to do).

I do tend to do a bit of navigating, I suppose. But on the bright side, it keeps me on my toes and generally out of needless fights. I mean, I wouldn't like being called "mam" and most guys I know would feel slighted or humiliated by it and I try to treat others the way I would want to be treated and use the pronouns they prefer just like I prefer not to be called "mam."

But I'm not in favor of gender surgery on people below the age of consent, nor people who are men by birth participating in female sports nor some men saying they identify as females just to creep on women in the bathroom or something. And I realize that there are some people out there who go overboard with some of the PC stuff.

[vegetariantaxidermy]

I hear you. That's fine to me. I'm not much worried about your beliefs. Personally, I just try to be accommodating because I prefer to get along with people. As long as someone doesn't want me to call them "your lordship" or something else that would be unreasonably humiliating to me, then I'm usually fine with their request. It's no skin off my back.

Hey, I'm all for folks doin' whatever it is they need to to get thru their day.

If Joe really needs to wear a skirt and think of himself as a girl, then that's exactly what Joe ought to do. And if you need to, I guess, respect Joe's choice, then that's exactly what you ought to do.

Me, I'm content to leave folks to their idiosyncrasies (till they get in my face and give me grief about why I won't call him, her...it's happened...I try and avoid it, but there's a limit to how much navigatin' around a subject a person can be expected to do).

I do tend to do a bit of navigating, I suppose. But on the bright side, it keeps me on my toes and generally out of needless fights. I mean, I wouldn't like being called "mam" and most guys I know would feel slighted or humiliated by it and I try to treat others the way I would want to be treated and use the pronouns they prefer just like I prefer not to be called "mam."

But I'm not in favor of gender surgery on people below the age of consent, nor people who are men by birth participating in female sports nor some men saying they identify as females just to creep on women in the bathroom or something. And I realize that there are some people out there who go overboard with some of the PC stuff.

Ma'am isn't a pronoun. It's offensive anyway. It's American and shouldn't be used here at all. The only people who use it are brain-washed, internet-sodden millenials working at checkouts. There's not need to call anyone 'ma'am, or sir'. EVER.

[RCSaunders]

a. The man who says, "everyone lies sometimes," is a liar.

The opposite is true.

The man who says "Everyone lies sometimes" has, for the moment, told a truth.

Being a liar does not mean never telling the truth. Most liars put over their lies by mixing some truth in with their deceits. It's exactly what you just did [though I'm sure it was inadvertent].

[RCSaunders]

... why would anyone put themselves through all the persecution ...

Masochism comes in endless varieties. Life's tough. Here's what I would say to them:

"Everybody isn't going to be nice to you, no matter who are what you are or what you do. It's never going to be home on the range, 'where never is heard a discouraging word, and the skies are not cloudy all day.' Be whatever you want. Suck it up, and ignore everyone else. But if you don't like it, keep it to yourself and quit annoying everyone else."

[Immanuel Can]

I suppose some people perhaps could and perhaps do fake it but I've met a couple of people who stated they had gender dysphoria and the ones I've met seemed to be on the level. I mean, why would anyone put themselves through all the persecution and sour looks if they could avoid it and just be "normal"?

Well, if it's fake, we surely shouldn't "accommodate" it.

But if it's "gender dysphoria," then it's a mental illness...and we should help them get free of it.

I mean, what kind of a psycho would encourage mentally ill people...say, somebody with delusions or suicidal ideation....that what they were experiencing was "normal"?

In any case, we would need a rationale other than "gender dysphoria" to rationalize "accommodation."

[Immanuel Can]

a. The man who says, "everyone lies sometimes," is a liar.

The opposite is true.

The man who says "Everyone lies sometimes" has, for the moment, told a truth.

Being a liar does not mean never telling the truth.

Are you unfamiliar with the meaning of the word "sometimes"?

On the other hand, the man who says "I have never lied" is most probably doing it at the present moment.