Philosophy Now Forum

There are many needs simply not being met because there is no profit in it. Old people, for instance, are often left with no support, even those who were promised a pension from their own work. Making retirement care a self-managed investment only exacerbates the problems. People's families don't necessarily have enough resources to help and regardless of how hard you work and plan, it can happen to you too. Almost everyone is only one unforeseeable accident or legal problem away from destitution.

Advocate wrote: ↑Sat May 08, 2021 2:11 pm There are many needs simply not being met because there is no profit in it. Old people, for instance, are often left with no support, even those who were promised a pension from their own work. Making retirement care a self-managed investment only exacerbates the problems. People's families don't necessarily have enough resources to help and regardless of how hard you work and plan, it can happen to you too. Almost everyone is only one unforeseeable accident or legal problem away from destitution.

Yep! Life's tough.
You really hate it, don't you?

Advocate wrote: ↑Sat May 08, 2021 2:11 pm There are many needs simply not being met because there is no profit in it. Old people, for instance, are often left with no support, even those who were promised a pension from their own work. Making retirement care a self-managed investment only exacerbates the problems. People's families don't necessarily have enough resources to help and regardless of how hard you work and plan, it can happen to you too. Almost everyone is only one unforeseeable accident or legal problem away from destitution.

Very true. Socialism is the way.

Japan? what?

-Imp

[quote=Impenitent post_id=510194 time=1620503756 user_id=3944]
Japan? what?

-Imp
[/quote]

A documentary about that was indeed the initial impetus of this post.

bahman wrote: ↑Sat May 08, 2021 8:47 pm

Advocate wrote: ↑Sat May 08, 2021 2:11 pm There are many needs simply not being met because there is no profit in it. Old people, for instance, are often left with no support, even those who were promised a pension from their own work. Making retirement care a self-managed investment only exacerbates the problems. People's families don't necessarily have enough resources to help and regardless of how hard you work and plan, it can happen to you too. Almost everyone is only one unforeseeable accident or legal problem away from destitution.

Very true. *Socialism is the way.

*to the abattoir

Advocate wrote: ↑Sat May 08, 2021 2:11 pm There are many needs simply not being met because there is no profit in it. Old people, for instance, are often left with no support, even those who were promised a pension from their own work. Making retirement care a self-managed investment only exacerbates the problems. People's families don't necessarily have enough resources to help and regardless of how hard you work and plan, it can happen to you too. Almost everyone is only one unforeseeable accident or legal problem away from destitution.

This is codswallop.

The West is far more affluent than any society in history...and not merely in the top 10%, but in the middle class particularly. Even the lower classes here are immeasurably richer than the poor classes in Honduras, or the Philippines, or Zimbabwe. You have no idea about what poverty is...not a clue, obviously.

As for our elderly, the most staggering fact is that we have them. We have lots of them because life is long and healthy here, and living long is expensive. And our middle class is spending their money on second cars, big screen TV's, alcohol and cigarettes, credit card debt and swimming pools, instead of saving for retirement, or caring for their own elderly. Here, families don't take care of their own elderly, but dump them into expensive homes and hospitals, in order to keep their cash flow going. And then we whine, and pretend that our old people are unsupported? And we want to tax other people, as if it's their responsibility to compensate for our own lack of responsibility.

It would be funny if it were not so completely tragic.

[quote="Immanuel Can" post_id=510324 time=1620580487 user_id=9431]
[quote=Advocate post_id=510149 time=1620479460 user_id=15238]
There are many needs simply not being met because there is no profit in it. Old people, for instance, are often left with no support, even those who were promised a pension from their own work. Making retirement care a self-managed investment only exacerbates the problems. People's families don't necessarily have enough resources to help and regardless of how hard you work and plan, it can happen to you too. Almost everyone is only one unforeseeable accident or legal problem away from destitution.
[/quote]
This is codswallop.

The West is far more affluent than any society in history...and not merely in the top 10%, but in the middle class particularly. Even the lower classes here are immeasurably richer than the poor classes in Honduras, or the Philippines, or Zimbabwe. You have no idea about what poverty is...not a clue, obviously.

As for our elderly, the most staggering fact is that we [i]have[/i] them. We have lots of them because life is long and healthy here, and living long is expensive. And our middle class is spending their money on second cars, big screen TV's, alcohol and cigarettes, credit card debt and swimming pools, instead of saving for retirement, or caring for their own elderly. Here, families don't take care of their own elderly, but dump them into expensive homes and hospitals, in order to keep their cash flow going. And then we whine, and pretend that our old people are unsupported? And we want to tax other people, as if it's their responsibility to compensate for our own lack of responsibility.

It would be funny if it were not so completely tragic.
[/quote]

Comparing a governance situation to how bad it could be instead of how good it should be is an ethical error. Believing people are even capable of making the best decisions about their retirement is codswallop. The financial sector is far too absurdly complicated for that to work. There will inevitably be a hoard of uncared for elderly no matter how hard they work and how well they try to make their decisions. We need universal socialized care for the elderly so that it can be done efficiently and everyone, elderly or otherwise, can get on with their lives.

Incidentally, elder-care, day-care, elementary schools, and animal shelters should be deeply integrated.

Advocate wrote: ↑Sun May 09, 2021 8:38 pm Comparing a governance situation to how bad it could be instead of how good it should be is an ethical error.

"Ethical" error? Heck, no.

Your complaint is absurd. It's not even irrational enough to be "utopian": it's just factually incorrect.

Believing people are even capable of making the best decisions about their retirement is codswallop.

Socialists think people are toddlers. Of course people are capable of making the best decisions for themselves and their elderly loved ones; who else is qualified? The government? Don't make me laugh.

The failures in elder care have nothing to do with capitalism. They have everything to do with human greed, stupidity, failure to plan...but nothing to do with capitalism.

Advocate wrote: ↑Sat May 08, 2021 2:11 pm There are many needs simply not being met because there is no profit in it. Old people, for instance, are often left with no support, even those who were promised a pension from their own work. Making retirement care a self-managed investment only exacerbates the problems. People's families don't necessarily have enough resources to help and regardless of how hard you work and plan, it can happen to you too. Almost everyone is only one unforeseeable accident or legal problem away from destitution.

When you say, "everyone", do you mean 'everyone on the planet' or just 'everyone' in some countries?

Also, since when has 'a pension' been a 'need' for 'you', human beings?

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Sat May 08, 2021 4:32 pm

Advocate wrote: ↑Sat May 08, 2021 2:11 pm There are many needs simply not being met because there is no profit in it. Old people, for instance, are often left with no support, even those who were promised a pension from their own work. Making retirement care a self-managed investment only exacerbates the problems. People's families don't necessarily have enough resources to help and regardless of how hard you work and plan, it can happen to you too. Almost everyone is only one unforeseeable accident or legal problem away from destitution.

Yep! Life's tough.
You really hate it, don't you?

But Life is NOT 'tough' AT ALL.

In fact, Life is PURELY simple AND easy.

Only 'you', human beings, make Life appear to be hard AND complex.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun May 09, 2021 6:14 pm

Advocate wrote: ↑Sat May 08, 2021 2:11 pm There are many needs simply not being met because there is no profit in it. Old people, for instance, are often left with no support, even those who were promised a pension from their own work. Making retirement care a self-managed investment only exacerbates the problems. People's families don't necessarily have enough resources to help and regardless of how hard you work and plan, it can happen to you too. Almost everyone is only one unforeseeable accident or legal problem away from destitution.

This is codswallop.

The West is far more affluent than any society in history...and not merely in the top 10%, but in the middle class particularly. Even the lower classes here are immeasurably richer than the poor classes in Honduras, or the Philippines, or Zimbabwe. You have no idea about what poverty is...not a clue, obviously.

For one who purportedly reads the bible you have a VERY TWISTED and DISTORTED view of what the word 'richer' ACTUALLY means in reference to 'you', human beings, and 'your' ACTUAL 'needs' in Life.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun May 09, 2021 6:14 pm As for our elderly, the most staggering fact is that we have them. We have lots of them because life is long and healthy here, and living long is expensive.

LOL Living is NOT 'expensive', (in monetary terms), AT ALL.

In fact, living costs NOTHING, (in monetary terms), AT ALL.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun May 09, 2021 6:14 pm And our middle class is spending their money on second cars, big screen TV's, alcohol and cigarettes, credit card debt and swimming pools, instead of saving for retirement, or caring for their own elderly. Here, families don't take care of their own elderly, but dump them into expensive homes and hospitals, in order to keep their cash flow going. And then we whine, and pretend that our old people are unsupported? And we want to tax other people, as if it's their responsibility to compensate for our own lack of responsibility.

It would be funny if it were not so completely tragic.

The very reason 'you', younger adult human beings, "reject and forget" your elder ones into 'homes and hospitals' is because of the 'love of money', which 'you', human beings, have put above just about every thing else, in the days when this is being written.

Advocate wrote: ↑Sun May 09, 2021 8:38 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun May 09, 2021 6:14 pm

Advocate wrote: ↑Sat May 08, 2021 2:11 pm There are many needs simply not being met because there is no profit in it. Old people, for instance, are often left with no support, even those who were promised a pension from their own work. Making retirement care a self-managed investment only exacerbates the problems. People's families don't necessarily have enough resources to help and regardless of how hard you work and plan, it can happen to you too. Almost everyone is only one unforeseeable accident or legal problem away from destitution.

This is codswallop.

The West is far more affluent than any society in history...and not merely in the top 10%, but in the middle class particularly. Even the lower classes here are immeasurably richer than the poor classes in Honduras, or the Philippines, or Zimbabwe. You have no idea about what poverty is...not a clue, obviously.

As for our elderly, the most staggering fact is that we have them. We have lots of them because life is long and healthy here, and living long is expensive. And our middle class is spending their money on second cars, big screen TV's, alcohol and cigarettes, credit card debt and swimming pools, instead of saving for retirement, or caring for their own elderly. Here, families don't take care of their own elderly, but dump them into expensive homes and hospitals, in order to keep their cash flow going. And then we whine, and pretend that our old people are unsupported? And we want to tax other people, as if it's their responsibility to compensate for our own lack of responsibility.

It would be funny if it were not so completely tragic.

Comparing a governance situation to how bad it could be instead of how good it should be is an ethical error.

Agreed.

Advocate wrote: ↑Sun May 09, 2021 8:38 pm Believing people are even capable of making the best decisions about their retirement is codswallop.

If 'people' are not capable of making the best decisions for themselves, then who or what is?

Advocate wrote: ↑Sun May 09, 2021 8:38 pm The financial sector is far too absurdly complicated for that to work.

The 'financial sector' is just far to ABSURD. End of story.

Advocate wrote: ↑Sun May 09, 2021 8:38 pm There will inevitably be a hoard of uncared for elderly no matter how hard they work and how well they try to make their decisions.

If the 'elderly' did NOT work 'so hard', for money, then they would NOT end up uncared for.

This is GLARINGLY OBVIOUSNESS, when one discovers or learns how to SEE CLEARLY.

Advocate wrote: ↑Sun May 09, 2021 8:38 pm We need universal socialized care for the elderly so that it can be done efficiently and everyone, elderly or otherwise, can get on with their lives.

If you BELIEVE SO, then it MUST BE SO, correct?

Advocate wrote: ↑Sun May 09, 2021 8:38 pm Incidentally, elder-care, day-care, elementary schools, and animal shelters should be deeply integrated.

Okay. But why not the work-place and home-life as well?

WHY separate some things and not integrate ALL things?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun May 09, 2021 10:20 pm

Advocate wrote: ↑Sun May 09, 2021 8:38 pm Comparing a governance situation to how bad it could be instead of how good it should be is an ethical error.

"Ethical" error? Heck, no.

Your complaint is absurd. It's not even irrational enough to be "utopian": it's just factually incorrect.

Believing people are even capable of making the best decisions about their retirement is codswallop.

Socialists think people are toddlers.

If, so called, "socialists" think 'people' are toddlers, and "socialists" are 'people', then, by 'your' "logic", they must think of themselves as toddlers, as well, correct?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun May 09, 2021 10:20 pm Of course people are capable of making the best decisions for themselves and their elderly loved ones; who else is qualified? The government? Don't make me laugh.

The failures in elder care have nothing to do with capitalism. They have everything to do with human greed, stupidity, failure to plan...but nothing to do with capitalism.

LOL If you do not think that 'capitalism' is 'human greed' at its most proficient, then what do you think 'capitalism' is, EXACTLY?

Age wrote: ↑Sun May 09, 2021 11:01 pm If...

Not bothering.