Philosophy Now Forum

commonsense wrote: ↑Tue Jul 27, 2021 1:50 pm I know that only a small percentage of people who are vaccinated has died, but can anyone tell me how many of those were due to the vaccines and how many were due to breakthrough Covid? I ask because both of these are often cited as legitimate reasons not to get vaccinated. Are these numbers significant or not?

There is not a single verified fatality from the vaccination. The proportion of blood clots among the vaccinated are lower than the base rate in the normal population, but rules mean that ANY negative indications have to be notified. Take a look at any prescribed pill and you will see a massive list of potential side effects. These are contrary indication reported with people on the medication, and not necessarily anything to do causally with the medication. This is nanny state stuff. It protects us all, but is a feast day for skeptics.

The percentage of people dying of covid that have had a vaccine will eventually reach 100% when everyone has been vaccinated.
Right now because so many have had the jab, around half of those dying are vaccinated, but the overall numbers dying is massively reduced.
So looking at percentages of vaccinated dying people is pretty much meaningless.

Sculptor wrote: ↑Tue Jul 27, 2021 5:16 pm There is not a single verified fatality from the vaccination.

Now that's some hard bullshit. There's not a single verified fatality from COVID either.

They all die from organ failure.

Correlation is not causation. Nananananana!

Skepdick wrote: ↑Tue Jul 27, 2021 7:05 pm

Sculptor wrote: ↑Tue Jul 27, 2021 5:16 pm There is not a single verified fatality from the vaccination.

Now that's some hard bullshit. There's not a single verified fatality from COVID either.

They all die from organ failure.

Correlation is not causation. Nananananana!

What is it that correlates with organ failure in people infected with Covid? Is there anything else that has a stronger correlation?

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Tue Jul 27, 2021 1:37 pm

Dubious wrote: ↑Tue Jul 27, 2021 1:46 am Also, to say that the vaccine has killed a fair number of people is misleading. It presupposes upon having received the covid shot and by happenstance that person died shortly after, the vaccine must be responsible, whereas there may be a whole number of reasons why that person died.

How strange. When a person is diagnosed with Covid, if they die it is automatically assume Covid is the cause of their death, but a person who receives the vaccine and almost immediately begins to have symptoms they've never had before and dies, it was probably something else that caused the death.

You can rationalize or de-rationalize it in anyway you like. The case is simple whatever the circumstances. For the anti-vaxers who listen to every social media bullshit negating covid as a hoax or some nefarious plan by governments or for any other reason truly deserve the consequences of their choice including those consequences of what they don't ask for and even strive against.

In theory, it's not impossible that the Covid shot could do you in, which is exceedingly rare compared to getting Covid. It's quite possible that among the billions of people on the planet there is a miniscule amount who because of whatever rare anomalies they have and weren't aware of may react to the VAX as a poison. It's almost impossible to think otherwise which must be equally true for any vaccine ever made.

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Tue Jul 27, 2021 1:37 pmVery sad that in the age of the pandemic of paranoia those who hated the government to tell them what they couldn't put in their bodies are now demanding the government to tell them what they must put in their bodies.

Not in the least sad; just logical in a life and death scenario. A pandemic is different from everything else considering the choice(s).

commonsense wrote: ↑Tue Jul 27, 2021 9:02 pm

Skepdick wrote: ↑Tue Jul 27, 2021 7:05 pm

Sculptor wrote: ↑Tue Jul 27, 2021 5:16 pm There is not a single verified fatality from the vaccination.

Now that's some hard bullshit. There's not a single verified fatality from COVID either.

They all die from organ failure.

Correlation is not causation. Nananananana!

What is it that correlates with organ failure in people infected with Covid? Is there anything else that has a stronger correlation?

It's pointless arguing with the religiously minded.
He "beleives" that COVID is some kind of conspiracy, He can't account for 2 million excess deaths in the time of pandemic so he blames it on a vaccine, because all he has to do it "beleive".
Skeptic and veggie are flat earthers.

commonsense wrote: ↑Tue Jul 27, 2021 9:02 pm What is it that correlates with organ failure in people infected with Covid? Is there anything else that has a stronger correlation?

It was a facetious comment

Correlation is not always a correlation. Sometimes it's just a terrible coincidence.

There's positive and negative feedback loops in the system. Nobody ever dies of a single cause - there's many complex interactions.

What we mean when we speak of such things is "Which variable, if removed, could've prevented the death?"

And the answer is SARS-CoV2 (in general).
And a bunch of minutia like specific pre-existing conditions (in particular)

Sculptor wrote: ↑Tue Jul 27, 2021 10:53 pm It's pointless arguing with the religiously minded.
He "beleives" that COVID is some kind of conspiracy, He can't account for 2 million excess deaths in the time of pandemic so he blames it on a vaccine, because all he has to do it "beleive".
Skeptic and veggie are flat earthers.

Just as I thought you had reached the rock-bottom of being dumb you got a jackhammer and dug even deeper.

My position on COVID is pretty clear. IF you can read.

Dubious wrote: ↑Tue Jul 27, 2021 10:52 pm

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Tue Jul 27, 2021 1:37 pmVery sad that in the age of the pandemic of paranoia those who hated the government to tell them what they couldn't put in their bodies are now demanding the government to tell them what they must put in their bodies.

Not in the least sad; just logical in a life and death scenario. A pandemic is different from everything else considering the choice(s).

I'm asking this sincerely and will not even comment on whatever you choose to answer, if you choose to.

In light of all the success governments have been throughout history, do you really believe there is a problem that can only be solved by a government telling people what to do?

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Wed Jul 28, 2021 1:25 am In light of all the success governments have been throughout history, do you really believe there is a problem that can only be solved by a government telling people what to do?

Why do all individualist nutters keep insisting they are being told what to do? Unresolved issues with authority or something?

You have a choice.
One of those choices is really dumb (here's reasons) - don't choose that one.
The other choice is pretty good (here's reasons) - choose that one.
The end.

Of course, if you are going to insist on acting like a rebelious teenager and prove your independence by going for the exact choice that screws you and everyone, then indeed there's a problem.

What do you do when rebelious teenagers abuse their autonomy? That's right... you take it away.

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Wed Jul 28, 2021 1:25 am

Dubious wrote: ↑Tue Jul 27, 2021 10:52 pm

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Tue Jul 27, 2021 1:37 pmVery sad that in the age of the pandemic of paranoia those who hated the government to tell them what they couldn't put in their bodies are now demanding the government to tell them what they must put in their bodies.

Not in the least sad; just logical in a life and death scenario. A pandemic is different from everything else considering the choice(s).

I'm asking this sincerely and will not even comment on whatever you choose to answer, if you choose to.

In light of all the success governments have been throughout history, do you really believe there is a problem that can only be solved by a government telling people what to do?

What? Is there a mandate where you live? Is there really such a thing as the government telling you what to do, anyway?

If there were a mandate, a rule that forces you to go against your will, there would have to be sanctions like fines and jail time.

You have a choice.
One of those choices is really dumb (here's reasons) - don't choose that one.
The other choice is pretty good (here's reasons) - choose that one.
The end.

The rub: reasons sometimes aren't clear. Facts can be subverted. Best, then, to leave each be as he assesses and chooses.

And: if fact is compellin', mandate is unnecessary.

Bottomline: leave people alone.

henry quirk wrote: ↑Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:17 pm You have a choice.
One of those choices is really dumb (here's reasons) - don't choose that one.
The other choice is pretty good (here's reasons) - choose that one.
The end.

The rub: reasons sometimes aren't clear. Facts can be subverted. Best, then, to leave each be as he assesses and chooses.

And: if fact is compellin', mandate is unnecessary.

Bottomline: leave people alone.

Right. Don’t confuse someone with the facts if their mind is already made up

commonsense wrote: ↑Wed Jul 28, 2021 3:18 pm

henry quirk wrote: ↑Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:17 pm You have a choice.
One of those choices is really dumb (here's reasons) - don't choose that one.
The other choice is pretty good (here's reasons) - choose that one.
The end.

The rub: reasons sometimes aren't clear. Facts can be subverted. Best, then, to leave each be as he assesses and chooses.

And: if fact is compellin', mandate is unnecessary.

Bottomline: leave people alone.

Right. Don’t confuse someone with the facts if their mind is already made up

If facts are available, seek them out. Don't simply accept them from strangers who may not have your best interests in mind.

And: once a man has made up his mind -- if he's not demonstrably deprivin' you of life, liberty, or property -- leave him be.

henry quirk wrote: ↑Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:17 pm You have a choice.
One of those choices is really dumb (here's reasons) - don't choose that one.
The other choice is pretty good (here's reasons) - choose that one.
The end.

The rub: reasons sometimes aren't clear. Facts can be subverted. Best, then, to leave each be as he assesses and chooses.

And: if fact is compellin', mandate is unnecessary.

Bottomline: leave people alone.

The trouble with your advice is that "leaving people alone", or "letting figure it out" assumes that people have the skils necessary to work their way through the oceans of information and disinformation.

If you know that somebody doesn't have the knowledge necessary to interpret the data you are basically letting them drown.

And you know what people do when they are overwhelmed? They default to their biases.

It's because morality is objective is why there is a right choice and a wrong choice. The right choice is the one that makes people die less.
So throwing facts at people if they are only going to misunderstand them is useless unless you also help them interpret them correctly.

The trouble with your advice is that "leaving people alone", or "letting (them) figure it out" assumes that people have the skils necessary to work their way through the oceans of information and disinformation.

Yep.


If you know that somebody doesn't have the knowledge necessary to interpret the data you are basically letting them drown.

How am I to know that?


And you know what people do when they are overwhelmed? They default to their biases.

No doubt.


It's because morality is objective is why there is a right choice and a wrong choice. The right choice is the one that makes people die less.

It's becuz morality is objective that Joe ought leave Stan be.