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Is Consciousness Necessary?
Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 3:29 pm
by Gary Childress
Is consciousness necessary for anything other than itself or is it entirely superfluous to an entity that possesses it? In other words, can everything that a human can do be mimicked through unconscious mechanical and computational means, or is there something that consciousness does for us that cannot be replicated mechanically or computationally (other than to experience sensations or whatnot)? To put it yet another way, it seems relatively intuitive to me to say that a computer designed to play chess doesn't experience anything when it plays chess as a human does when s/he plays chess and yet a computer can be very good at chess without being conscious.
Re: Is Consciousness Necessary?
Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 4:41 pm
by Terrapin Station
A problem with answering this is that we don't know at what point, if any, different materials, structures and relations (different than brains) would simply be conscious and have mental phenomena. Especially if we build systems that can "behave" as if they think, it becomes difficult to say that we know that they can't actually think/that they don't actually have conscious phenomena.
So there's no way to build machines that can plausibly mimic everything that humans can do while knowing that they're not in fact conscious.
We have no idea to what extent particular materials, structures and relations are necessary for consciousness to occur. We know that consciousness arises in some materials, structures and relations (again, namely brains at some level of complexity/similarity to human brains), but maybe it can arise in all sorts of materials, structures and processes. Since we're talking about something that is a phenomenon that only seems to arise from the perspective of being particular materials, it's not something we could ever gain knowledge-by-acquaintance of for other materials.
Re: Is Consciousness Necessary?
Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 5:16 pm
by mickthinks
I think I can see what you are trying to get this question to do, but I don't think the question as phrased makes sense.
Discussion of consciousness is problematic for one very good reason; discussion requires at least two minds to share their thoughts, thoughts being assumed to be the product of their consciousness. But as you point out, AI can mimic thoughts.
I am conversing with you. I generate thoughts and put them into words. I do that consciously. You respond likewise, and I can only assume that you too are conscious. Why do I assume that? Because I assume that being you is just like being me and consciousness is a large part (the entirety even) of my experience of being me.
What does it mean for you to be conscious? It means the same as for me to be conscious. Can I imagine you not being conscious? Not really. Not without denying our common humanity.
I think it is impossible to imagine having a discussion with a thought-generating partner that wasn't conscious. So is my partner's consciousness a necessary condition for such a discussion? No, rather it is simply my inescapable assumption. Just as my assumption that you have consciousness is inescapable.
Re: Is Consciousness Necessary?
Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 5:25 pm
by Gary Childress
mickthinks wrote: ↑Tue Apr 13, 2021 5:16 pm
I think I can see what you are trying to get this question to do, but I don't think the question as phrased makes sense.
Discussion of consciousness is problematic for one very good reason; discussion requires at least two minds to share their thoughts, thoughts being assumed to be the product of their consciousness. But as you point out, AI can mimic thoughts.
I am conversing with you. I generate thoughts and put them into words. I do that consciously. You respond likewise, and I can only assume that you too are conscious. Why do I assume that? Because I assume that being you is just like being me and consciousness is a large part (the entirety even) of my experience of being me.
What does it mean for you to be conscious? It means the same as for me to be conscious. Can I imagine you not being conscious? Not really. Not without denying our common humanity.
I think it is impossible to imagine having a discussion with a thought-generating partner that wasn't conscious. So is my partner's consciousness a necessary condition for such a discussion? No, rather it is simply my inescapable assumption. Just as my assumption that you have consciousness is inescapable.
I agree. It certainly seems very tempting to attribute consciousness to things other than myself. For some peoples, rocks may be seen as having "spirits." I agree that it seems almost impossible not to attribute consciousness to at least some other beings. Does that mean that all beings that I attribute consciousness to really have it? Of course, I'll never know, however, I suppose I can't help but think that there is an objective truth to such a statement, that something is either conscious or it is not, and that we can sometimes be fooled into thinking that something is conscious when it is, in fact, not. Or even fooled into thinking something is not conscious when it is.
Re: Is Consciousness Necessary?
Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 7:01 pm
by Skepdick
The problem with asking this question is that it really means very different things in a Scientific and Philosophical mindset.
By Occam''s razor nothing is necessary if a scientific theory works without it.
Time is necessary in General Relativity. But if we happen to find a theory of Quantum Gravity which doesn't treat time as a dimension, and that theory works towards explaining the phenomena that we are observing then... time is no longer necessary. IN THAT THEORY.
Society isn't exactly going to abandon the use of clocks because of it.
Re: Is Consciousness Necessary?
Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:11 pm
by Gary Childress
Skepdick wrote: ↑Tue Apr 13, 2021 7:01 pm
The problem with asking this question is that it really means very different things in a Scientific and Philosophical mindset.
By Occam''s razor nothing is necessary if a scientific theory works without it.
Time is necessary in General Relativity. But if we happen to find a theory of Quantum Gravity which doesn't treat time as a dimension, and that theory works towards explaining the phenomena that we are observing then... time is no longer necessary. IN THAT THEORY.
Society isn't exactly going to abandon the use of clocks because of it.
Sounds like eliminative materialism or some other form of reductionism. It's just not going to work to a conscious being, at least not to an honest one who isn't driven by whatever motive to abandon the idea that s/he is conscious.
Re: Is Consciousness Necessary?
Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:20 pm
by Skepdick
Gary Childress wrote: ↑Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:11 pm
Sounds like eliminative materialism or some other form of reductionism. It's just not going to work to a conscious being, at least not to an honest one who isn't driven by whatever motive to abandon the idea that s/he is conscious.
The question "Am I an eliminative materialist?" is as incoherent to me as the question "Am I conscious?"
I don't understand the meaning of either question - I can't answer either question.
Re: Is Consciousness Necessary?
Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:25 pm
by Gary Childress
Skepdick wrote: ↑Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:20 pm
Gary Childress wrote: ↑Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:11 pm
Sounds like eliminative materialism or some other form of reductionism. It's just not going to work to a conscious being, at least not to an honest one who isn't driven by whatever motive to abandon the idea that s/he is conscious.
The question "Am I an eliminative materialist?" is as incoherent to me as the question "Am I conscious?"
I don't understand the meaning of either question - I can't answer either question.
I suggest taking a course on philosophy of mind, then. The terms might make more sense to you.
Re: Is Consciousness Necessary?
Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:27 pm
by Skepdick
Gary Childress wrote: ↑Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:25 pm
I suggest taking a course on philosophy of mind, then. The terms might make more sense to you.
I have a model for minds.
My mind is a computer. Sensory inputs and outpututs, memory, CPU for processing sensory information and memory recall.
I don't have a model for consciousness.
Re: Is Consciousness Necessary?
Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:28 pm
by Gary Childress
Skepdick wrote: ↑Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:27 pm
Gary Childress wrote: ↑Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:25 pm
I suggest taking a course on philosophy of mind, then. The terms might make more sense to you.
I have a model for minds.
My mind is a computer. Sensory inputs and outpututs, memory, CPU.
I don't have a model for consciousness.
Like I say, take a philosophy of mind course. It'll explain a lot.
Re: Is Consciousness Necessary?
Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:31 pm
by Skepdick
Gary Childress wrote: ↑Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:28 pm
Like I say, take a philosophy of mind course. It'll explain a lot.
Philosophy doesn't explain anything - it just muddies the water.
I much prefer cognitive and neuroscience+AI research when it comes to understanding what minds are and how they work.
Still. I have no idea what "consciousness" is or whether I have it.
Re: Is Consciousness Necessary?
Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:31 pm
by Gary Childress
Gary Childress wrote: ↑Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:28 pm
Skepdick wrote: ↑Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:27 pm
Gary Childress wrote: ↑Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:25 pm
I suggest taking a course on philosophy of mind, then. The terms might make more sense to you.
I have a model for minds.
My mind is a computer. Sensory inputs and outpututs, memory, CPU.
I don't have a model for consciousness.
Like I say, take a philosophy of mind course. It'll explain a lot.
Here's a good, thought-provoking audio lecture. I highly recommend it, although it doesn't beat a classroom with an astute professor to interact with and clarify things and bounce ideas off of.
https://www.thegreatcourses.com/courses ... g-machines
Re: Is Consciousness Necessary?
Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:34 pm
by Gary Childress
Skepdick wrote: ↑Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:31 pm
Gary Childress wrote: ↑Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:28 pm
Like I say, take a philosophy of mind course. It'll explain a lot.
Philosophy doesn't explain anything - it just muddies the water.
I much prefer cognitive and neuroscience+AI research when it comes to understanding what minds are and how they work.
Still. I have no idea what "consciousness" is or whether I have it.
That's probably why you have no idea what consciousness is. You haven't learned to talk about the mind-body problem in a meaningful way. You need to think like a philosopher, and not necessarily as a contemporary "scientist."
Re: Is Consciousness Necessary?
Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:38 pm
by Skepdick
Gary Childress wrote: ↑Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:34 pm
That's probably why you have no idea what consciousness is. You haven't learned to talk about the mind-body problem in a meaningful way. You need to think like a philosopher, and not necessarily as a contemporary "scientist."
But it seems to me you have a problem: You are confused about consciousness. I am not. I don't even know if I am conscious.
Why then would I want to think like you if all you are offering is problems that I don't have?
Re: Is Consciousness Necessary?
Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:39 pm
by Gary Childress
Skepdick wrote: ↑Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:38 pm
Gary Childress wrote: ↑Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:34 pm
That's probably why you have no idea what consciousness is. You haven't learned to talk about the mind-body problem in a meaningful way. You need to think like a philosopher, and not necessarily as a contemporary "scientist."
But it seems to me you have a problem: You are confused about consciousness. I am not. I don't even know if I am conscious.
Why then would I want to think like you if all you are offering is problems that I don't have?
Too cute but just check out the course I listed above. A philosophic perspective is better than that of a clever fool.