Can good God do evil?

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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Veritas Aequitas
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Re: Can good God do evil?

Post by Veritas Aequitas » Sat Sep 14, 2019 6:57 am

Age wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 5:52 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 3:30 am
How can present my own definition for a God when I believe God is an impossibility.
Very ,easily just present your own definition of what a 'God' IS. It is NOT that hard at all REALLY. But considering you asked; " How could you present some thing when you BELIEVE some thing contrary?" then this goes straight to what I have been pointing out. That is; You are completely and utterly incapable of SEEING any thing other than what you already BELIEVE is true and right. In other words. I can NOT show any thing to you which could prove your BELIEF wrong because you are NOT open to any thing other than your own BELIEF, which from your perspective is 100% absolutely True, Right, and Correct. You ALSO totally incapable of even you presenting absolutely any thing at all that opposes your own BELIEFS. You are so stuck in 'confirmation biases' that you can not even come up with any thing yourself that opposes your own BELIEF.

You are a prime example of what my whole point revolves around.

Until you provide YOUR definition for the word 'God', then the crux of what you write is;
I BELIEVE some thing is an impossibility, but what that some thing is that I am actually talking about I have absolutely NO idea nor clue about at all.

Well done. You have proved, and have said, absolutely NOTHING at all here.
You missed my point, and got too engaged with linguistic rather than what I actually meant,
I''ll rephrase
  • How can present my own definition for a God which is defined and believed by theists, where upon based on their definition, I believe [with justifications] is an impossibility to be real.
It is same with a schizo-Y who insists 'X' exists and provide his own definition for 'X'.
How do you expect others do define what is 'X' in the schizo's mind.
The most one can do is to state, according to schizo-Y, 'X' is defined as .....
The only explanation is to explain why a schizo believe as she/he would due to a serious mental illness.

It would be appear it is bothering on stupidity for you to insist I must define 'God' in my own words.

My conclusion is, the God that is defined by theists and claimed to be real is an illusion based on their delusion driven by an existential crisis in their mind.
The reason WHY santa claus is REAL to children is because you adults LIE to them. Children had NO previous reason to NOT believe what you tell them. That is the reason WHY children do such things. Surely that still does NOT need to be explained to 'you', adult human beings, does it?
You are ignorant with the thoughts of children.
Children often claimed they have 'real' friends they talked to.
This has nothing to do with adults lying to them at all.

Point is while children do claim the 'friends' they talked to and Santa Claus are real, adults do the same with adult things, e.g. the God who answers their prayers is real.

There are many adults who claimed to have had experiences with a 'real' God but they turned out to be suffering from various mental illnesses.
I often linked this video;
Ramachandran, the Temporal Lobes and God - Part 1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qIiIsDIkDtg

To an extent, theists are suffering from a kind of mental illness [not serious like schizophrenia], i.e. a delusion, but because the majority are suffering the same thing, it is accepted as normal.

Age
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Re: Can good God do evil?

Post by Age » Sat Sep 14, 2019 8:46 am

Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 6:57 am
Age wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 5:52 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 3:30 am
How can present my own definition for a God when I believe God is an impossibility.
Very ,easily just present your own definition of what a 'God' IS. It is NOT that hard at all REALLY. But considering you asked; " How could you present some thing when you BELIEVE some thing contrary?" then this goes straight to what I have been pointing out. That is; You are completely and utterly incapable of SEEING any thing other than what you already BELIEVE is true and right. In other words. I can NOT show any thing to you which could prove your BELIEF wrong because you are NOT open to any thing other than your own BELIEF, which from your perspective is 100% absolutely True, Right, and Correct. You ALSO totally incapable of even you presenting absolutely any thing at all that opposes your own BELIEFS. You are so stuck in 'confirmation biases' that you can not even come up with any thing yourself that opposes your own BELIEF.

You are a prime example of what my whole point revolves around.

Until you provide YOUR definition for the word 'God', then the crux of what you write is;
I BELIEVE some thing is an impossibility, but what that some thing is that I am actually talking about I have absolutely NO idea nor clue about at all.

Well done. You have proved, and have said, absolutely NOTHING at all here.
You missed my point, and got too engaged with linguistic rather than what I actually meant,
I''ll rephrase
  • How can present my own definition for a God which is defined and believed by theists, where upon based on their definition, I believe [with justifications] is an impossibility to be real.
But I NEVER missed this point at all, as can be witnessed in my past posts. I even replied directly to this point. You asked the question;
"HOW could I speculate 'God exists' If you NEVER tell me what 'your' definition of the word 'God' is?"
To wit I replied:
'Now this is a good question. You could NOT speculate IF 'God exists" IF I NEVER tell you what 'my' definition of what the word 'God' is.'

You HAVE been given a definition, now all you had to do is just say IF that is the definition you use. But you say that that it is NOT your definition.

I have said that from that definition I can SHOW how it can be True, Right, and Justified. All I NEED to KNOW is if you are going to keep using 'THAT' definition or if you are going to use another one?
Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 6:57 am
It is same with a schizo-Y who insists 'X' exists and provide his own definition for 'X'.
How do you expect others do define what is 'X' in the schizo's mind.
By just repeating what the human being that 'you' call a "schizo" has ALREADY just provided. You just said they provide their own definition. So, just repeat what they provide, and say if that is the same definition that YOU are going to use. It is all very simple and easy really.
Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 6:57 am
The most one can do is to state, according to schizo-Y, 'X' is defined as .....
And that defining ... is EXACTLY ALL I have been asking you to do.

And you say that I am missed some thing.
Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 6:57 am
The only explanation is to explain why a schizo believe as she/he would due to a serious mental illness.
But I do NOT want your (obviously WRONG) diagnosis of WHY you BELIEVE some one said some thing.

Just because you do NOT believe what a person, who 'you' call a "schizo", says, does NOT mean that what they are saying is WRONG.

I can very easily prove that God exists, now do you want "others" to call you the "schizo" just because you believe differently?

The main reason WHY you call some one a "schizo" is solely because you do NOT believe what they say is true, and you also then 'self-diagnose' them with a "mental illness", again solely because you do NOT believe what they say.

Also, it is very far from being True that "the ONLY explanation is for you to explain ...". The explanation I am looking for, from you, is; What is the definition YOU use for the word 'God', WHEN you make the claim that 'God is an impossibility to be real'.

Remember how big and HUGE the claim is that you are making. In order to be able to make such a claim as 'God is an impossibility to be real' and to be able to back up and support such a thing, you would have at least at first be able to explain what definition for the word 'God' you are using.
Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 6:57 am
It would be appear it is bothering on stupidity for you to insist I must define 'God' in my own words.
I have been wanting you to express A definition for the word 'God' and stick to that one. When you expressed a definition I asked you if that is your one, (and the want to use) and you said it was NOT. REMEMBER, it is 'YOU' who BELIEVES and INSISTS that 'God' is an impossibility to be real.

Most non mentally ill people when they INSIST on some thing, or say they have formulated an argument for some thing, then they are USUALLY able to provide definitions for the words that they are actually using. You have provided a definition, but you continually insist that it is NOT your definition. Do you do this because if any one SHOWS and PROVES just how REAL 'God' REALLY IS, then you can say. "But that was NOT my definition for 'God'"?
Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 6:57 am
My conclusion is, the God that is defined by theists and claimed to be real is an illusion based on their delusion driven by an existential crisis in their mind.
I KNOW this. Now do you want to stick with this definition, which I will get YOU to repeat, because I do NOT want to be blamed for misconstruing any thing here?

If yes, then would you like me to SHOW just HOW 'that God' can be or IS True, Right, and Justified?

Or, are you so stuck in your own BELIEFS, that you can not see any thing other than " 'that God' is just an illusion, which is based on theist's delusion, which is driven by an existential crisis, which comes from in their mind"?

Besides the OBVIOUS, to me, absolute ridiculousness and absurdity of your view, which way do you want to proceed?

(Also, are you aware that some may have already concluded that 'the God that is the One, which you have said is defined by theists and claimed to be an impossibility to be real is an illusion based on your delusion, driven by any crisis, in your mind?

Although this conclusion is just as ridiculous and as absurd as your own conclusion, the same basis for "logical and sound reasoning" can apply both ways equally. Both conclusion border on insanity.
Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 6:57 am
The reason WHY santa claus is REAL to children is because you adults LIE to them. Children had NO previous reason to NOT believe what you tell them. That is the reason WHY children do such things. Surely that still does NOT need to be explained to 'you', adult human beings, does it?
You are ignorant with the thoughts of children.
Children often claimed they have 'real' friends they talked to.
This has nothing to do with adults lying to them at all.
Obviously it does NOT. But we, just as OBVIOUS, were NOT talking about that previously. Bring completely OFF TOPIC comments into the discussion only diverts away from the issue here. Namely, you make a claim and assert it as though it is abosolutely 100% True and Right, and I am just trying to obtain, What is your definition for the word 'God'
Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 6:57 am
Point is while children do claim the 'friends' they talked to and Santa Claus are real, adults do the same with adult things, e.g. the God who answers their prayers is real.
Another example is; 'God is an IMPOSSIBILITY to be real'.

Some adults really are just so distorted and stuck in their OWN beliefs, that it is near impossible to free them from their own making.
Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 6:57 am
There are many adults who claimed to have had experiences with a 'real' God but they turned out to be suffering from various mental illnesses.
I often linked this video;
Ramachandran, the Temporal Lobes and God - Part 1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qIiIsDIkDtg

There are ALSO many adults who claimed 'God is an impossibility to be real', they these adults turned out to be suffering from various mental illnesses also. I often use these people on this forum to SHOW exactly HOW and WHY these people are like this.

To an extent, theists are suffering from a kind of mental illness [not serious like schizophrenia], i.e. a delusion, but because the majority are suffering the same thing, it is accepted as normal.
And these 'delusions', being 'accepted as normal', is a very frequent occurrence among adult human beings.

For example, the majority BELIEVE that God exists, and, that God does not exist. But BELIEVING things, which are NOT YET KNOWN, is a form of delusion and mental illness that a HUGE majority of human beings continue to HAVE, in the days when this is written.

This BELIEVING stops them from SEEING the actual Truth. And, even this Truth can not YET be SEEN by them. This is because they will NOT stop believing and assuming things.

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bahman
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Re: Can good God do evil?

Post by bahman » Sat Sep 14, 2019 6:41 pm

Age wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 1:59 am
bahman wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 4:24 pm
Age wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 12:55 am

So, are you saying you know a good God has the ability to do evil things or not?
No, I don't know. I am asking whether good God has the ability to do evil. I know that a good person can do evil because s/he is free. I am wondering if there is an argument about God.
The only definition of 'God' that you are providing is that 'God is good', and you say that a good person can do evil, so then I would say Yes a 'good God' has the ability to do evil.

Are you satisfied now?

I am, however, still unsure what argument you are actually seeking. I do not even know how you are defining the word 'evil' here.

From my perspective ALL people can do evil and ALL adult human beings do do 'evil'. Does that help you?

So, if human beings can do 'evil' and they only have the ability to create some things, then I would say a God (good or not), which has the ability to create ALL things, also could do 'evil', and I am sure there are some people who say that God does do some 'evil' things. However, to me, even though a 'good God' has the ability to do 'evil', but never actually does 'evil'.

So, and just to repeat to make clear, to answer your question; Yes a 'good God' has the ability to do evil.

However, whether a God (good or not) actually does do 'evil' or not can be and will be explained when the words 'God' and 'evil' are defined once and for all, for me.
God which I am aiming is the Catholic God who is the creator and goodness, buy goodness I mean that God always does good. I was wondering about a tension between goodness and freedom, by freedom I mean He has the ability to freely decide and do anything.

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Greatest I am
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Re: Can good God do evil?

Post by Greatest I am » Sat Sep 14, 2019 7:39 pm

bahman wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 6:27 pm
Does good God have the ability to do evil? If yes, is His evil act justifiable just because He is God?
I am late but---

God is said to be able to do anything and that would include doing evil. To say no would be to restrict what an Omni-everything god can do. That is not really allowed.

History, if you believe the myth to be historical, which I do not, shows god as doing evil quite often.
This link sows a few examples for us to look at.

https://vimeo.com/7038401

Evil is not usually justifiable unless it leads to some greater good.

In the case of an Omnipotent god, who would have a great power of persuasion and still does evil, would always be wrong or unjustifiable.

This fact is why it is so hard to get a Christian to chat about the immoral actions of god like genocide and infanticide.

Regards
DL

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Greatest I am
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Re: Can good God do evil?

Post by Greatest I am » Sat Sep 14, 2019 7:42 pm

Skepdick wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 4:12 pm
Immanuel Can wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 3:59 pm
The question requires the hearer to believe that "evil" is the same thing as "what God could do." In other words, it presupposes a division between God and good, and a grounds outside of the nature of God from which we could pass judgment on the goodness or evilness of His character.

But if He's the Creator, He's the Definer of the concept of good. There is no grounds outside of what we know of good from God's nature, upon which we could stand in order to pass such a judgment. In point of fact, we literally could not have a concept called "good" outside of His nature, since our knowledge of good is derivative, not original.
Of course there are grounds! Humans are morally superior to God.
I agree, even though most Christians deny this while running from arguing their point.

Regards
DL

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Re: Can good God do evil?

Post by Greatest I am » Sat Sep 14, 2019 7:44 pm

HexHammer wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 4:19 pm
If you pulled out your head and read 1st testament, then there's NOTHING but evil there, not hugging and talking about things, giving out lands that already belongs to others, annihilating cities just because they dared want to have sex with strangers, even Lot's wife got killed in the fury, empowering Samson that fucked up everything.

Always choosing bad leaders, refusing the jews to grow big so they could fend for themselves, but force them to rely on miracles of god.

Only the son was a bit nicer.
I agree with your position but would point out that for a moral teacher, Jesus sure had some immoral moral tenets.

His no divorce for women and substitutional punishments are the worst of these.

Regards
DL

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Greatest I am
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Re: Can good God do evil?

Post by Greatest I am » Sat Sep 14, 2019 7:50 pm

Age wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 4:03 pm

Does good God have the ability to do evil? The answer is just simply no.
You seem to be restricting what god can and can't do. Explain.

Further, god is said to kill when he could just as easily cure, which is what Jesus said he came to do. Yahweh does the opposite.

Is genocide good to you?

Is killing when one can just as easily cure good or evil to you?

Regards
DL

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bahman
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Re: Can good God do evil?

Post by bahman » Sat Sep 14, 2019 8:05 pm

Greatest I am wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 7:39 pm
bahman wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 6:27 pm
Does good God have the ability to do evil? If yes, is His evil act justifiable just because He is God?
I am late but---

God is said to be able to do anything and that would include doing evil. To say no would be to restrict what an Omni-everything god can do. That is not really allowed.

History, if you believe the myth to be historical, which I do not, shows god as doing evil quite often.
This link sows a few examples for us to look at.

https://vimeo.com/7038401

Evil is not usually justifiable unless it leads to some greater good.

In the case of an Omnipotent god, who would have a great power of persuasion and still does evil, would always be wrong or unjustifiable.

This fact is why it is so hard to get a Christian to chat about the immoral actions of god like genocide and infanticide.

Regards
DL
Thanks.

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bahman
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Re: Can good God do evil?

Post by bahman » Sat Sep 14, 2019 8:17 pm

Greatest I am wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 7:39 pm
bahman wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 6:27 pm
Does good God have the ability to do evil? If yes, is His evil act justifiable just because He is God?
I am late but---

God is said to be able to do anything and that would include doing evil. To say no would be to restrict what an Omni-everything god can do. That is not really allowed.

History, if you believe the myth to be historical, which I do not, shows god as doing evil quite often.
This link sows a few examples for us to look at.

https://vimeo.com/7038401

Evil is not usually justifiable unless it leads to some greater good.

In the case of an Omnipotent god, who would have a great power of persuasion and still does evil, would always be wrong or unjustifiable.

This fact is why it is so hard to get a Christian to chat about the immoral actions of god like genocide and infanticide.

Regards
DL
Do you agree with the definition of God is goodness? What does goodness mean this context?

seeds
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Re: Can good God do evil?

Post by seeds » Sat Sep 14, 2019 8:35 pm

bahman wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 6:41 pm
God which I am aiming is the Catholic God...
If such is the case, then shouldn’t the title of your thread be:

Can the Catholic God do evil?
bahman wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 6:41 pm
God which I am aiming is the Catholic God who is the creator and goodness, buy [sic] goodness I mean that God always does good.
Do you mean to frame it as a God who “always” does good, or a God who “only” does good?

However, either way, when it comes to the Catholic God, then I would suggest that any Being who would create and then send a defenseless soul into a context of everlasting (eternal) torture in a dimension of reality called hell,...

...takes the definition of evilness to a whole new level.
_______

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Greatest I am
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Re: Can good God do evil?

Post by Greatest I am » Sat Sep 14, 2019 8:40 pm

bahman wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 8:17 pm
Greatest I am wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 7:39 pm
bahman wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 6:27 pm
Does good God have the ability to do evil? If yes, is His evil act justifiable just because He is God?
I am late but---

God is said to be able to do anything and that would include doing evil. To say no would be to restrict what an Omni-everything god can do. That is not really allowed.

History, if you believe the myth to be historical, which I do not, shows god as doing evil quite often.
This link sows a few examples for us to look at.

https://vimeo.com/7038401

Evil is not usually justifiable unless it leads to some greater good.

In the case of an Omnipotent god, who would have a great power of persuasion and still does evil, would always be wrong or unjustifiable.

This fact is why it is so hard to get a Christian to chat about the immoral actions of god like genocide and infanticide.

Regards
DL
Do you agree with the definition of God is goodness? What does goodness mean this context?
No, I do not define god as goodness.

We live in a dualistic reality where we have both a good and evil side, a Yin and Yang side.

If we have the complimentary traits of good and evil, --- and we are created in god's image, --- then he too must have a Yin side to go with his Yang side.

That is why scriptures say that he created all things, good and evil, for his pleasure.

Regards
DL

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Greatest I am
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Re: Can good God do evil?

Post by Greatest I am » Sat Sep 14, 2019 8:43 pm

seeds wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 8:35 pm
bahman wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 6:41 pm
God which I am aiming is the Catholic God...
If such is the case, then shouldn’t the title of your thread be:

Can the Catholic God do evil?
bahman wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 6:41 pm
God which I am aiming is the Catholic God who is the creator and goodness, buy [sic] goodness I mean that God always does good.
Do you mean to frame it as a God who “always” does good, or a God who “only” does good?

However, either way, when it comes to the Catholic God, then I would suggest that any Being who would create and then send a defenseless soul into a context of everlasting (eternal) torture in a dimension of reality called hell,...

...takes the definition of evilness to a whole new level.
_______
I agree.

I have a new thread on god's condemnation that might interest you.

Regards
DL

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bahman
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Re: Can good God do evil?

Post by bahman » Sat Sep 14, 2019 9:11 pm

Greatest I am wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 8:40 pm
bahman wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 8:17 pm
Greatest I am wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 7:39 pm


I am late but---

God is said to be able to do anything and that would include doing evil. To say no would be to restrict what an Omni-everything god can do. That is not really allowed.

History, if you believe the myth to be historical, which I do not, shows god as doing evil quite often.
This link sows a few examples for us to look at.

https://vimeo.com/7038401

Evil is not usually justifiable unless it leads to some greater good.

In the case of an Omnipotent god, who would have a great power of persuasion and still does evil, would always be wrong or unjustifiable.

This fact is why it is so hard to get a Christian to chat about the immoral actions of god like genocide and infanticide.

Regards
DL
Do you agree with the definition of God is goodness? What does goodness mean this context?
No, I do not define god as goodness.

We live in a dualistic reality where we have both a good and evil side, a Yin and Yang side.

If we have the complimentary traits of good and evil, --- and we are created in god's image, --- then he too must have a Yin side to go with his Yang side.

That is why scriptures say that he created all things, good and evil, for his pleasure.

Regards
DL
Then why we are punished for doing evil? God Himself created evil.

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Greatest I am
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Re: Can good God do evil?

Post by Greatest I am » Sat Sep 14, 2019 9:24 pm

bahman wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 9:11 pm
Greatest I am wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 8:40 pm
bahman wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 8:17 pm

Do you agree with the definition of God is goodness? What does goodness mean this context?
No, I do not define god as goodness.

We live in a dualistic reality where we have both a good and evil side, a Yin and Yang side.

If we have the complimentary traits of good and evil, --- and we are created in god's image, --- then he too must have a Yin side to go with his Yang side.

That is why scriptures say that he created all things, good and evil, for his pleasure.

Regards
DL
Then why we are punished for doing evil? God Himself created evil.
I do not believe as the Christians do. Where they see a supernatural god, I see nature.

They see a just punishment from god where I see injustice.

Their god is not real and cannot punish anyone.

If nature is all we have, and I think that that is the case, then we have to see that nature rewards evil.

Short form.

We are evolving entities.

When we cooperate, there is no victim and no harm. This is good.

When we compete, we create a loser who will feel that evil has befallen him. This is evil.

Nature reward the winner of the competition with whatever the goal was and this is good as then the fittest has won the rite to rise to the be fittest.

I have a TLDR on this if you do not understand the short form.

Regards
DL

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bahman
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Re: Can good God do evil?

Post by bahman » Sat Sep 14, 2019 9:46 pm

seeds wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 8:35 pm
bahman wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 6:41 pm
God which I am aiming is the Catholic God...
If such is the case, then shouldn’t the title of your thread be:

Can the Catholic God do evil?
bahman wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 6:41 pm
God which I am aiming is the Catholic God who is the creator and goodness, buy [sic] goodness I mean that God always does good.
Do you mean to frame it as a God who “always” does good, or a God who “only” does good?

However, either way, when it comes to the Catholic God, then I would suggest that any Being who would create and then send a defenseless soul into a context of everlasting (eternal) torture in a dimension of reality called hell,...

...takes the definition of evilness to a whole new level.
_______
People say that Hell is a matter of choice. Some people want it over goodness of Heaven. How do you answer this?

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