EVIL!!!!!!!!

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

Moderators: AMod, iMod

User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 9556
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: EVIL!!!!!!!!

Post by Immanuel Can »

gaffo wrote: Fri Nov 08, 2019 7:24 pm I know you are a good man and you think the same of me - in spite of our differing Beliefs - you affirm YHWH and his son, i do not. but both us being good men see that in each other.
Do I like you, as a conversation partner? Absolutely. Do I think you are a worse person than I am? Decidedly not...I have no reason to think you're anything but significantly better, actually. I trust that you are.

But speaking honestly, I don't believe in the goodness of men. I believe we're all in need of forgiveness from God. Me first, perhaps. But all of us eventually, no matter how "good" we may suppose we are, or that we may convince others we are.
you view Belief in God (leaving out which one for simplicity here) somehow makes a person more moral.
No, I don't think that.

But I do think that what a man believes makes him what he becomes, if he takes it seriously. That's why it's worth knowing what anybody's ideology says, and how rational it is: it tells you what direction he's hoping to head. And that's very likely where he will go.
as i said many times - asshole is as asshole does, Christian, Jew, Hindu, Muslim or Atheist - and their nature is FIXED prior to any faith or non-faith they adopt latter.
That's what I'm questioning. I don't disagree that people who do evil things are as you characterize them...at least, that's how they're acting. But I think we've all got business to do in that regard, and things to get right with God. And apart from a relationship with Him, we're all pretty bad, really.

We like to compare ourselves to each other. We like it, because we can always find somebody who's worse than we are, and we can congratulate ourselves accordingly. But the Bible doesn't talk about goodness that way; it compares our goodness to the goodness it takes to stand in a right relationship with an entirely-good God. And it seems we all come up more than a little short, when that's the standard.

You might say that boasting of our own goodness is as you and I have set out to swim the Pacific. Now, perhaps I make it a mile, and perhaps you make it ten. Congratulations. But compared to the distance to go, when viewed from the high perspective, you and I have hardly left the shore before we both drown. Both of us need help.
You view is opposite i understand sir, just disagree!
Perfectly allowable.
...that inner voice of the moral soul we are born with regardless of particular dogmatic religious belief systems
That voice is the thing that made us think we could make it across the Pacific in the first place. :wink:
sadly we are different planets per this debate, we have bot made our view clear, and we reject each others view on the matter.
Okay.
I'm ok with that because i know you are not an asshole, but honest in your views - i just do not share them.
Likewise. I'm just explaining, not demanding. I am enjoying hearing what you think.
Peace to you - i know you are a good man because the 2 yrs i've been here you've never made fun of my dyslexia nor bullied me just because we disargeed.
And to you. I respect that you are compensating bravely for a difficult challenge. When facing a cognitive "disability," some people quit talking or writing because they feel humiliated. That's a shame, because a learning disability doesn't mean the person in question is stupid, and it doesn't mean they have nothing to say worth hearing. It takes real courage to go on, and I salute that.
I look forward with conversing with you more in the future - on this particualr topic i think we have have said enough - both of us have clarified our views and we must agree to disagree.
Of course.
I thank you again for being a gentleman, and hope you've had a good week.
I have. And the same to you, I hope.
gaffo
Posts: 3597
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:15 am

Re: EVIL!!!!!!!!

Post by gaffo »

Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Nov 08, 2019 8:37 pm
gaffo wrote: Fri Nov 08, 2019 7:24 pm I know you are a good man and you think the same of me - in spite of our differing Beliefs - you affirm YHWH and his son, i do not. but both us being good men see that in each other.
Do I like you, as a conversation partner? Absolutely. Do I think you are a worse person than I am? Decidedly not...I have no reason to think you're anything but significantly better, actually. I trust that you are.

But speaking honestly, I don't believe in the goodness of men. I believe we're all in need of forgiveness from God. Me first, perhaps. But all of us eventually, no matter how "good" we may suppose we are, or that we may convince others we are.
you view Belief in God (leaving out which one for simplicity here) somehow makes a person more moral.
No, I don't think that.

But I do think that what a man believes makes him what he becomes, if he takes it seriously. That's why it's worth knowing what anybody's ideology says, and how rational it is: it tells you what direction he's hoping to head. And that's very likely where he will go.
as i said many times - asshole is as asshole does, Christian, Jew, Hindu, Muslim or Atheist - and their nature is FIXED prior to any faith or non-faith they adopt latter.
That's what I'm questioning. I don't disagree that people who do evil things are as you characterize them...at least, that's how they're acting. But I think we've all got business to do in that regard, and things to get right with God. And apart from a relationship with Him, we're all pretty bad, really.




But the Bible doesn't talk about goodness that way; it compares our goodness to the goodness it takes to stand in a right relationship with an entirely-good God. And it seems we all come up more than a little short, when that's the standard.

You might say that boasting of our own goodness is as you and I have set out to swim the Pacific. Now, perhaps I make it a mile, and perhaps you make it ten. Congratulations. But compared to the distance to go, when viewed from the high perspective, you and I have hardly left the shore before we both drown. Both of us need help.
You view is opposite i understand sir, just disagree!
Perfectly allowable.
...that inner voice of the moral soul we are born with regardless of particular dogmatic religious belief systems
That voice is the thing that made us think we could make it across the Pacific in the first place. :wink:
sadly we are different planets per this debate, we have bot made our view clear, and we reject each others view on the matter.
Okay.
I'm ok with that because i know you are not an asshole, but honest in your views - i just do not share them.
Likewise. I'm just explaining, not demanding. I am enjoying hearing what you think.
Peace to you - i know you are a good man because the 2 yrs i've been here you've never made fun of my dyslexia nor bullied me just because we disargeed.
And to you. I respect that you are compensating bravely for a difficult challenge. When facing a cognitive "disability," some people quit talking or writing because they feel humiliated. That's a shame, because a learning disability doesn't mean the person in question is stupid, and it doesn't mean they have nothing to say worth hearing. It takes real courage to go on, and I salute that.
I look forward with conversing with you more in the future - on this particualr topic i think we have have said enough - both of us have clarified our views and we must agree to disagree.
Of course.
I thank you again for being a gentleman, and hope you've had a good week.
I have. And the same to you, I hope.
thanks for reply above sir.

only two things stood out - only one is global difference (maybe even more core than the theme itself! - nature of evil/assholes - where is say in effect formed before they adopt cultural majority beleifs of their homeland, and after adopting them thier nature remains assholish (you say something different - latter beliefs reform assholes if the belief system is moral)...but on the lower level we seem to even be on other planets.

for in your above you affirm convention Christian dogma that man is born bad via the Fall (I've read Genesis and it is a rise - man was an animal without sin nor self knowledge, then became godlike when he ate of one of the two trees - God removed the second tree before Adam might overthrow God by becoming imortal. Christian perspecitve of the fall as a fall is the one you affirm. I've read Genesis and that view is wrong IMO.

nonetheless i do not think man is good by nature just because my reading of genesis talks about how man become more than a beast in the field aftter eating of the tree of self awarness (wisdom).

I'm an athiest! lol.

I view man good by default - though sadly too many are not good (all hate themselves and are at war with themselves, but are cowards and instead of offing thmeselves due to their self hate - transur it out as bullies and make the rest of us suffer).

all good men know, love and forgiven themselves when they stumble - then pick themselves up and learn to be better than before.

all evil men are ignorant of themselves, hate (themselves (but dont know it consciously) and others (consciously) (rember they are COWARDS to even thier ownselves - so being cowards deny their self hate and tranfir to all others (the blame game), and never forgive (they lack self knowledge so cannot forgive themselves not knowing they hate themselves!) and refuse to forgive others (for to do so is to forgive themselves and they are so ignorant of their own psyche they are by thier nature unable too and utterly lost forgive)

evil men are the most lost souls of all (I would assume Belial in your Faith would be the most self hating. self ignorant. lost fool of all - tranfiring his self hate upon the world.

wise men are the most good folks of all for they know themselves.

...............

but see? my philosophy of the self (man - si soul/etc) is one of GOOD.

"if only so and so knew himself he would be good".

..............

your view is opposite! man'snature is bad/evil.

so you and i have nowhere to go on this topic!!!!!!!

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

for example:


you said:

We like to compare ourselves to each other. We like it, because we can always find somebody who's worse than we are, and we can congratulate ourselves accordingly.




WTF???????

I don't do that!!!!!! i do the OPPOSITE!

We like to compare ourselves to each other. We like it, because we can always find somebody who's BETTER than we are, and we can congratulate THEM accordingly.

THEN we can reflect upon our shortcomings and use THEM as a role model for us!!!!!!!!!!!!!
User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 9556
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: EVIL!!!!!!!!

Post by Immanuel Can »

gaffo wrote: Fri Nov 08, 2019 9:24 pm I'm an athiest! lol.
I know.
I view man good by default
Two problems with this: firstly, it's obviously untrue...for where does the evil that men do come from, if not from men? But secondly, if Atheism is true, there is no such thing as good or evil. They're merely imaginary.
your view is opposite! man'snature is bad/evil.
Not quite. My view is that mankind is "fallen," meaning, "good originally, and made in the image of God originally; but now fallen from that, alienated from God, and susceptible to evil.
so you and i have nowhere to go on this topic!!!!!!!
Well, one place: if Atheism is true, then how is evil anything but a made-up idea? All the great Atheist philosophers, from Hume to Nietzsche to Russell and now Dawkins, have all recognized this fact: that if Atheism is true, there is no reality to evil. Whatever is, simply is.

So how do you explain your own belief in good and evil?
I don't do that!!!!!! i do the OPPOSITE!

We like to compare ourselves to each other. We like it, because we can always find somebody who's BETTER than we are, and we can congratulate THEM accordingly.

THEN we can reflect upon our shortcomings and use THEM as a role model for us!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You could. But it wouldn't really be comparable to the goodness of God. That's my point. The best of us is not very good, actually, when the standards are perfect and accurate. We all fall short of what we ought to have been.

We like to think of ourselves as a balance of evil and good...as if our good deeds could somehow outweigh our evil ones, and we can trade them off against one another. But the Bible conceives of evil not as a balance against good, but rather as an all-or-nothing proposition. Any sin creates separation from God, because of His perfect goodness. So there are no "little, white sins". And there's no trading off good against evil.
gaffo
Posts: 3597
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:15 am

Re: EVIL!!!!!!!!

Post by gaffo »

Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Nov 08, 2019 9:56 pm
I view man good by default
Two problems with this: firstly, it's obviously untrue...for where does the evil that men do come from, if not from men?

lets not be pedantic. i guess i should have said man is "more good than bad"

to me if a man is 2/3 good and 1/3 bad he is good.

i think most of us are in that camp give or take 1/6th.

Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Nov 08, 2019 9:56 pm But secondly, if Atheism is true, there is no such thing as good or evil. They're merely imaginary.
Atheism is not a Truth, only a negation in belief in any god or gods. nothing more.

its not a religion nor philosphy. its a simple dissbelief in the gods.

nothing more. it does not posit on good or evil or mean nor non meaning of life.

for me personally my atheism as as relevant as to the color of my shoelaces. For others may its their identity, other somewhere in-between.



Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Nov 08, 2019 9:56 pm Not quite. My view is that mankind is "fallen," meaning, "good originally, and made in the image of God originally; but now fallen from that, alienated from God, and susceptible to evil.
well in that regard we agree, man is susceptible to evil.

sadly.


Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Nov 08, 2019 9:56 pm Well, one place: if Atheism is true,
but its not!!!!!!!!!!

it offers no Truth, only a negation of a beleif in your or any other's belief that their god exists!!!!!!!!!

nothing more than that!!!!!!!!

so just stop with this bullshit nonesence.


Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Nov 08, 2019 9:56 pm then how is evil anything but a made-up idea?
I know evil is real due to my conscience.


because i've seen it, felt it and done it!


and I'm an Athiest!



Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Nov 08, 2019 9:56 pm All the great Atheist philosophers, from Hume to Nietzsche to Russell and now Dawkins, have all recognized this fact: that if Atheism is true, there is no reality to evil. Whatever is, simply is.

of those man you mention i only respect Hume.

i value what he has to say about anything, including evil.

as to the others i do not respect nor care what they have to say about anything.


Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Nov 08, 2019 9:56 pm So how do you explain your own belief in good and evil?
My conscience convicts me when i fuck up.

sometimes i play the coward and play deaf and not hear it, and when the evidence becomes overwhelming i then play the blame game, and finally after the tsumami my conscience forces me to admit i fucked up and comited evil and repent.

thankfully i have forsight and enough self knowledge to not knee-cap myself most of the time.................but when i do not have the prior mentioned - refer to the above state of actions i go through.

Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Nov 08, 2019 9:56 pm You could.
only could?

or should?
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Nov 08, 2019 9:56 pm But it wouldn't really be comparable to the goodness of God.

only a fool strives to be perfect (you a glass empty sort?)

beam=spec

I strive for the do-able, which is not to be your God (perfect).

My lifelong struggle is to move upward from where i am today, i'm a good man now and strive and shall (as long as i remain true to my conscience) become a better man tomorrow.

not perfect - only a fool strive to be perfect (I know I'm not that and have never wished to be perfect). I wish to be good.

and good is good enough Sir!

for me at least, it is.
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Nov 08, 2019 9:56 pm That's my point.
???

your point is to be perfect?

well............................lol.........................good luck in that.

Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Nov 08, 2019 9:56 pm The best of us is not very good, actually,

actually the best of us are very very good!!!!!!!!!! and i hope i may live up to the standards of the best of us.

Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Nov 08, 2019 9:56 pm when the standards are perfect and accurate.
that is an unrealistic standard.

one by my nature am unable to reach nor even consider.

I'll spend my life reaching "the best of us" as a lifetime goal, and be content if i reach that by the time i die.


Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Nov 08, 2019 9:56 pm We all fall short of what we ought to have been.
man is a limited animal more good and bad.

the best one can be is a good man (not your God - not perfect).

one becomes a good-enough man by hearing their conscience and obeying it (know thy self-and convict thyself when you fuck up).
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Nov 08, 2019 9:56 pm We like to think of ourselves as a balance of evil and good...as if our good deeds could somehow outweigh our evil ones, and we can trade them off against one another.
this is my view - only i think we are more good than you seem to think.

i reject "all sins are evil" mindset many Christians have (per God hates sin so a person lying is the same to God as raping a kid - kind of bullshit).

I've lied, and have friends i love that are liers.

none of them that i know of have rape any kids. if/when i find out that have they of course will become former friends.
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Nov 08, 2019 9:56 pm But the Bible conceives of evil not as a balance against good, but rather as an all-or-nothing proposition. Any sin creates separation from God, because of His perfect goodness. So there are no "little, white sins". And there's no trading off good against evil.

oh, and so it is revealed!!!

(BTW i did not read the above from you prior to saying fucking a kid is worse then lying).

apparently its not.

all this time i thought i was talking to a human being with a mind, but instead i've just been wasting my time for - what weeks? months even? - with an American Taliban.

I'm outta here. good day and get lost Bubba.
User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 9556
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: EVIL!!!!!!!!

Post by Immanuel Can »

gaffo wrote: Fri Nov 08, 2019 10:45 pm i guess i should have said man is "more good than bad"
Like Hitler was? Or like "Mother Theresa" was?

I'm not sure we can generalize about proportions, especially since humans are notorious for putting the finger on the scales in their own favour.
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Nov 08, 2019 9:56 pm But secondly, if Atheism is true, there is no such thing as good or evil. They're merely imaginary.
Atheism is not a Truth, only a negation in belief in any god or gods. nothing more.[/quote]
If Atheism isn't a truth, it's a falsehood. If it says nothing at all, it's just a vacuity.

So I'm pretty sure you must think it articulates at least one alleged truth. And based on the name, I would say it was the claim that there is no God.

So that's the minimum it can say. But once that's said, it also has certain inevitable implications.

One is that since there is no Creator, there is no creation...only random happenings. Another is that there is no good or evil...there is only "stuff that happens." We might choose to call it "good" or "evil," but there's no longer any possibility of an objective truth to back our words. They're just noises we make, because we like or don't like what's happening.
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Nov 08, 2019 9:56 pm Not quite. My view is that mankind is "fallen," meaning, "good originally, and made in the image of God originally; but now fallen from that, alienated from God, and susceptible to evil.
well in that regard we agree, man is susceptible to evil.

sadly.
Indeed so.
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Nov 08, 2019 9:56 pm then how is evil anything but a made-up idea?
I know evil is real due to my conscience. [/quote]
I believe you. But why have you got a conscience, when (according to what must be the case, given Atheism) it does not refer to anything objective at all?
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Nov 08, 2019 9:56 pm All the great Atheist philosophers, from Hume to Nietzsche to Russell and now Dawkins, have all recognized this fact: that if Atheism is true, there is no reality to evil. Whatever is, simply is.
of those man you mention i only respect Hume.
It does not really change anything whether or not we respect the men. What does matter is whether or not what they said is true, logically.
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Nov 08, 2019 9:56 pm You could.
only could?

or should?
As Hume pointed out, there's no "should" if Atheism is true. That is, if you mean morally "should."
only a fool strives to be perfect
Well, either way, we're not going to succeed. Hence, the need for forgiveness.
(you a glass empty sort?)
That's another "balance" analogy. But doing some good doesn't excuse any doing of evil.
I strive for the do-able, which is not to be your God (perfect).
Is the do-able enough? God says no. If human beings say "yes," then somebody's wrong about that.
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Nov 08, 2019 9:56 pm The best of us is not very good, actually,
actually the best of us are very very good!!!!!!!!!!
Compared to other mixed-up rascals like you and me? Or compared to God's perfection?
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Nov 08, 2019 9:56 pm We all fall short of what we ought to have been.
man is a limited animal more good and bad.[/quote]
But if it's not a balance, it doesn't matter. The good doesn't excuse any of the bad.
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Nov 08, 2019 9:56 pm But the Bible conceives of evil not as a balance against good, but rather as an all-or-nothing proposition. Any sin creates separation from God, because of His perfect goodness. So there are no "little, white sins". And there's no trading off good against evil.
oh, and so it is revealed!!!

all this time i thought i was talking to a human being with a mind, but instead i've just been wasting my time for - what weeks? months even? - with an American Taliban.
Heh. :D No such thing, of course.

The Taliban actually believes in the "scales" view of evil. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiraman_Katibin. So if you were to believe good and evil are weighed off against one another, you would be much closer to them than I could possibly be.

But I doubt you're of their view, ultimately.
gaffo
Posts: 3597
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:15 am

Re: EVIL!!!!!!!!

Post by gaffo »

Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Nov 08, 2019 11:31 pm
I believe you. But why have you got a conscience,
evolution. i'm a social amimal, to survive my DNA must foster morality as a social animal.

otherwise i'd not be here.

surival of the the fitest.

the most fit for man is to have DNA that fosters morality/conscience for the survival of the collective as a species.



I'm done talking with you - i thought you had a mind, but you don't. you equate raping a kid as eqaul sin to telling your girlfriend her ass is small when it is elephant sized (my Gf has a elephant butt - and i love it, she knows she is huge assed and like it (she is black and so culturally has no guilt over it).


I dont talk to Taliban.

good day.
User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 9556
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: EVIL!!!!!!!!

Post by Immanuel Can »

gaffo wrote: Fri Nov 08, 2019 11:56 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Nov 08, 2019 11:31 pm
I believe you. But why have you got a conscience,
evolution.
Not possible, unless "evolution" wants you to be deluded...because good and evil then wouldn't be objective facts. So why would "evolution" want you not to be in touch with reality? And how would a delusion be good for "survival"? Moreover, if "evolution" likes to deceive you, how can you trust any of your cognitions in such a world as that?

As a matter of fact, in what sense could "evolution" want anything? :shock:
I dont talk to Taliban.
See other thread.

Interesting...I am nice to you, and you...what, exactly, is responsive and reasonable about calling somebody "Taliban" and then running off? :shock:
gaffo
Posts: 3597
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:15 am

Re: EVIL!!!!!!!!

Post by gaffo »

Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Nov 09, 2019 12:12 am
gaffo wrote: Fri Nov 08, 2019 11:56 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Nov 08, 2019 11:31 pm
I believe you. But why have you got a conscience,
evolution.
Not possible, unless "evolution" wants you to be deluded...because good and evil then wouldn't be objective facts. So why would "evolution" want you not to be in touch with reality? And how would a delusion be good for "survival"? Moreover, if "evolution" likes to deceive you, how can you trust any of your cognitions in such a world as that?

As a matter of fact, in what sense could "evolution" want anything? :shock:
I dont talk to Taliban.
See other thread.

Interesting...I am nice to you, and you...what, exactly, is responsive and reasonable about calling somebody "Taliban" and then running off? :shock:
i know you are a nice guy from prior posts - but you are cultist taliban - your "all sins are the same" mentality showed that. I have no wish to insult you nor do i. I think you are one of the Taliban (surenered reason to cultism - when you equate fucking a kid with lying - which in effect you did with "in god's eye its the same...............well with a god like that as a man myself i have no need for your god).

yes i know i posts the equivication - but the mentality was yours (and i know if your mentality - too many baptist/pentocostal okies have it!)

................

its not rocket science.


per for evolution. Evolution is not a mind, its a process.

the process is survival of the species.

90-percent of higher animals are social animals, including man.

if i fuck my kid, the mob will kill me, later if my kids fuck their kids they too........eventually we die out.

if i do not fuck them, them my social genes are good enough to live longe enough to have few more kids.

add infintum for million yrs or so and you have a collective good DNA..............and of course the outliers are jailed/killed for deviency.

why do i still converse with a bot (russian)..who equates all sins as eqaul.

i thought you are worth my time and welcome discussion since a few months ago, but now i know better from your prior post on this thread.

bye - again.
User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 9556
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: EVIL!!!!!!!!

Post by Immanuel Can »

gaffo wrote: Sat Nov 09, 2019 12:29 am your "all sins are the same" mentality
Again, wrong...I did not say this. See the other thread.
per for evolution. Evolution is not a mind,
Right. So it can't "intend" or "design" for you to believe anything. And It has no opinion at all about good or evil...or anything else, including your survival. Species go extinct all the time.
gaffo
Posts: 3597
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:15 am

Re: EVIL!!!!!!!!

Post by gaffo »

Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Nov 09, 2019 12:32 am
gaffo wrote: Sat Nov 09, 2019 12:29 am your "all sins are the same" mentality
Again, wrong...I did not say this. See the other thread.
per for evolution. Evolution is not a mind,
Right. So it can't "intend" or "design" for you to believe anything. And It has no opinion at all about good or evil...or anything else, including your survival. Species go extinct all the time.
evolution is all about survival.

man is social animal. and so survive he must have morals.

why does he have morals? because he is not extinct

what is good?

what fosters survival of the social animal man.

why is man alive?

because evolution made man with a moral social animal with a moral DNA?

why?

no reason

how, via evolution (survival).

morality DNA serves man's survival

............

when it no longer does man will evolve with another DNA without our current form of morality incoded in it.
gaffo
Posts: 3597
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:15 am

Re: EVIL!!!!!!!!

Post by gaffo »

So it can't "intend" or "design" for you to believe anything. And It has no opinion at all about good or evil...or anything else, including your survival. Species go extinct all the time.

I am a product of evolution

I have a conscience

it was inborn via survival of the fittest

so evolution incoded in me morality via my survival as a species of man

..........

it really is not complicated and IMO it very self evident - i'm here! lol
User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 9556
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: EVIL!!!!!!!!

Post by Immanuel Can »

gaffo wrote: Sat Nov 09, 2019 12:43 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Nov 09, 2019 12:32 am
gaffo wrote: Sat Nov 09, 2019 12:29 am your "all sins are the same" mentality
Again, wrong...I did not say this. See the other thread.
per for evolution. Evolution is not a mind,
Right. So it can't "intend" or "design" for you to believe anything. And It has no opinion at all about good or evil...or anything else, including your survival. Species go extinct all the time.
evolution is all about survival.
And extinction. Things that don't adapt die off, according to the theory. Who says we humans are adaptive?
man is social animal. and so survive he must have morals.
I agree. But not because man must survive. Evolution doesn't care if he does or not. And evolution gives him no basis for any morals. Things live, things die...and you won't find any "right" or "evil" to it, as per Evolutionism.
what is good?

what fosters survival of the social animal man.
Why? Why does "evolution" care more about men than about amoebas? In fact, it can't "care" at all.
gaffo
Posts: 3597
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:15 am

Re: EVIL!!!!!!!!

Post by gaffo »

Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Nov 09, 2019 12:49 am
gaffo wrote: Sat Nov 09, 2019 12:43 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Nov 09, 2019 12:32 am
Again, wrong...I did not say this. See the other thread.


Right. So it can't "intend" or "design" for you to believe anything. And It has no opinion at all about good or evil...or anything else, including your survival. Species go extinct all the time.
evolution is all about survival.
And extinction. Things that don't adapt die off, according to the theory.


that is a apt observation. good one.

in fact 99.99999999999 percent all live animal plant germ have become extinct via evolution. so evolution is more about death than life.

a grim reaper, kulling away.

= what remains are the most hardy.

and in fact the most hardy are the 2 billion yr old germs, not man nor any animal nor plant.


in 2 billion yrs -1.999999999999 billon yrs after man is long gone, the last plant will die under a too hot sun.............then our earth will only have a few 1000 breeds of germs, until in another 1/2 billion yrs our earth will to even too hot for them to survive.


germs are now, billions of yrs ago and hence Kings of the Hill per evolution.

Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Nov 09, 2019 12:49 am Evolution doesn't care if he does or not.
evolution is not a master mind thing, its a mindless process!

one product is man.

man is a thing with masterminds, and reason and morals.

and?

he is product of "Evolution" all his morals are a product of.

the process is not the product!

but the product is via the process!

evolution does not give a shit if man exist nor of his morals, but evolution produced both man and his morality.

same can be said for the chipmucks and the morality of chipmuncks.


Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Nov 09, 2019 12:49 am And evolution gives him no basis for any morals.

Evolution is not a thing it is a process, and we are (one of trillions- most now extinct) a product!

and the yes the product has morality inborm via DNA via the process of evolution.

Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Nov 09, 2019 12:49 am Things live, things die...and you won't find any "right" or "evil" to it, as per Evolutionism.
correct, but you will per man.


and chipmucks (maybe)
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Nov 09, 2019 12:49 am Why? Why does "evolution" care more about men than about amoebas? In fact, it can't "care" at all.
correct Evolution care not about anything.

man cares, the other trillon or so animals.plants and germ prob don't.
User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 9556
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: EVIL!!!!!!!!

Post by Immanuel Can »

gaffo wrote: Sat Nov 09, 2019 1:13 am germs are now, billions of yrs ago and hence Kings of the Hill per evolution.
That, in itself, suggests that man's alleged place of privilege in the affairs of Evolutionism are not secure, by any means. And while germs will likely never exterminate their own species, man has now the ability to do that to all mankind.
evolution does not give a shit if man exist nor of his morals,
On that much, we certainly agree.
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Nov 09, 2019 12:49 am And evolution gives him no basis for any morals.
the product has morality inborm via DNA via the process of evolution.
You should perhaps say, "The product (man) has a propensity for self-delusion about this unjustified thing called 'morality.'" Evolutionism, premised as it is on Materialism, allows no more than that to be true.
gaffo
Posts: 3597
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:15 am

Re: EVIL!!!!!!!!

Post by gaffo »

let me clarify myself here.

to me evolution makes sense, common sense - like its little brother natural selection.

but the whole creationism vs evolution, like the red meat guns gays and feituses bore the shit out of me.

evolution is something i beleive in, but not my God and i'm not one to die on the hill for it.

if you deny evolution, fine more power to ya.

i really couldn't care less.

i'm the same way with "the god debate" as my athiesm is a important to me as the shoes.

I've been an Athiest since age 12 and a Solipsist since 16 (many decades ago).

I am the latter in all ways, so if you know what the latter is then you may understand that i may have been talking to myself here on the forum since i joined.
Post Reply