Hello, I'm Envelope

Tell us a little about yourself.

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Envelope
Posts: 15
Joined: Wed Jul 31, 2019 6:12 pm

Re: Hello, I'm Envelope

Post by Envelope »

Age wrote: Tue Aug 20, 2019 3:55 am
If you can find me the people who truly want to be Honest about their wrong doings, and seriously want to change, for the better, then what can and will be revealed is far more than could have even been imagined, previously.
Safe man, I've been working on the reply and sketched out a structure of all the points raised and I'm trying to bring everything together. Although, before I get into it, I feel we need to clarify our interaction dynamic. First of all, what do you mean more specifically by "finding" people? What is your reason for asking this question? You now mentioned some unspecified thing that you set out to do. Has this chat got some other meaning or purpose for you other than discussing things for the sake of intellectual exploration of these topics? If you'd like to share more about your position I'm sure we could make the chat more mutually enriching.
Age
Posts: 5280
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: Hello, I'm Envelope

Post by Age »

Envelope wrote: Wed Aug 28, 2019 10:41 am
Age wrote: Tue Aug 20, 2019 3:55 am
If you can find me the people who truly want to be Honest about their wrong doings, and seriously want to change, for the better, then what can and will be revealed is far more than could have even been imagined, previously.
Safe man, I've been working on the reply and sketched out a structure of all the points raised and I'm trying to bring everything together. Although, before I get into it, I feel we need to clarify our interaction dynamic. First of all, what do you mean more specifically by "finding" people?
Look for.

Seek out.
Envelope wrote: Wed Aug 28, 2019 10:41 amWhat is your reason for asking this question?
I KNOW how a Truly peaceful "world" can be created. But I have yet to 'find' the people who are prepared for this. So, if you can 'find the people', then creating this Truly peaceful "world" can really begin.
Envelope wrote: Wed Aug 28, 2019 10:41 amYou now mentioned some unspecified thing that you set out to do.
Create a Truly peaceful "world".
Envelope wrote: Wed Aug 28, 2019 10:41 am Has this chat got some other meaning or purpose for you other than discussing things for the sake of intellectual exploration of these topics?
Instead of just intellectual exploration I want to create these topics, if these topics includes creating a Truly peaceful "world" for EVERY one. I just want to start to make things really happen, instead of the continual talking about how to achieve them?

HOW to achieve peace is very simple and easy. Finding the 'right' people to help make this happen is somewhat harder.
Envelope wrote: Wed Aug 28, 2019 10:41 am If you'd like to share more about your position I'm sure we could make the chat more mutually enriching.
Okay. Did I share enough or would you like to know more?

The only real things worth sharing are the ones that you WANT TO KNOW. So, EVERY and ALL questions welcomed, the more the better I find. ALL intellectual challenges also accepted and very welcomed.
Atlantique
Posts: 2
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Re: Hello, I'm Envelope

Post by Atlantique »

I have a physophical question. Why would someone want to name himself after a piece of paper?
Envelope
Posts: 15
Joined: Wed Jul 31, 2019 6:12 pm

Re: Hello, I'm Envelope

Post by Envelope »

Age wrote: Thu Sep 05, 2019 6:12 pm
Envelope wrote: Wed Aug 28, 2019 10:41 am
Age wrote: Tue Aug 20, 2019 3:55 am
If you can find me the people who truly want to be Honest about their wrong doings, and seriously want to change, for the better, then what can and will be revealed is far more than could have even been imagined, previously.
Safe man, I've been working on the reply and sketched out a structure of all the points raised and I'm trying to bring everything together. Although, before I get into it, I feel we need to clarify our interaction dynamic. First of all, what do you mean more specifically by "finding" people?
Look for.

Seek out.
Envelope wrote: Wed Aug 28, 2019 10:41 amWhat is your reason for asking this question?
I KNOW how a Truly peaceful "world" can be created. But I have yet to 'find' the people who are prepared for this. So, if you can 'find the people', then creating this Truly peaceful "world" can really begin.
Envelope wrote: Wed Aug 28, 2019 10:41 amYou now mentioned some unspecified thing that you set out to do.
Create a Truly peaceful "world".
Envelope wrote: Wed Aug 28, 2019 10:41 am Has this chat got some other meaning or purpose for you other than discussing things for the sake of intellectual exploration of these topics?
Instead of just intellectual exploration I want to create these topics, if these topics includes creating a Truly peaceful "world" for EVERY one. I just want to start to make things really happen, instead of the continual talking about how to achieve them?

HOW to achieve peace is very simple and easy. Finding the 'right' people to help make this happen is somewhat harder.
Envelope wrote: Wed Aug 28, 2019 10:41 am If you'd like to share more about your position I'm sure we could make the chat more mutually enriching.
Okay. Did I share enough or would you like to know more?

The only real things worth sharing are the ones that you WANT TO KNOW. So, EVERY and ALL questions welcomed, the more the better I find. ALL intellectual challenges also accepted and very welcomed.
Hey man I’m really sorry for having disappeared for a month. Let’s pick this back up.

I now see that by finding people you mean you want to meet the right group of people to collaborate with and start changing the world in order to make it into a truly peaceful world for everyone.
The only problem with this view is that it mixes up two aspects of reality that shouldn’t be mixed up. Is that “peaceful” referred to an inner sensation or is it referred to an external situation? These two sides of reality are connected because they influence each other, but if we want to make people peaceful inside the way to go is to give them the right tools. The tools that you talked about are very good. The HOW formula, honesty, openness, will. Although if you communicate just these words to someone that wants to change they will not have a clue of what you’re talking about. This will practically be of no utility. But if instead you help the person to feel himself and you listen to what he says, and you’re good at helping him stay in a relationship with his feelings rather than relating to the external environment in the ways that he already knows and that always generate the same dynamics, he will actually start changing.
If we want to make people peaceful outside there can be changes in the environment of each individual to help him change, but everyone is different and some people need very different things that are incompatible with others. Plus changing the elements of the environment is much more “expensive” than changing from within. And this is why I say the pillar for a social change is a revolution at the individual level.
So, if you want to meet some new people that are already completely at peace with themselves and are keen to collaborate on some practical project you just have to go and search for them. Although you have already found one: me. In answer to your previous question, I am “truly” (you used the word truly, I would maybe say “enough”) open and honest to see and admit my wrong behaviours. And I am also truly willing to change. I have gone through complete ego deaths experiences many times. Moreover, I also can distinguish very clearly when I am in a position where I cannot be either open, honest, or willing enough. And so when I recognize that I’m in that position, I ask for help. And with help I always manage to improve myself, overcome obstacles, and change for the better. So If you wanna join forces this would be amazing! In fact, this very discussion is basically the first attempt at a collaboration toward creating a world that is truly peaceful for everyone (intended in both ways).
We are now using the word peaceful, but obviously I’m taking it very loosely. By peaceful I mean what only I know I mean, and explaining it would just be an unfulfilling act because there can be no full explication of an implicit meaning. So, let’s just think of peaceful as what we feel as a good thing.
Anyway, to make a new world, I would say that one of the first things to do would be to for us would be to diffuse a culture of self development and a jargon that is able to communicate effectively the meaning of the HOW formula. This is what process jargon aims at doing. Reactivating stopped processes is not a thing that you do by telling yourself to stop. Stopped processes are respects in which experience is not in process. People have called this the unconscious. In process terminology we’d say instead that there is a process-skipping structure, or a frozen whole, that impedes the person to be able to experience certain things. As I was saying earlier, by helping a person to stay in contact with their felt sense they can find implicitly functioning feelings that can be explicated and therefore carried forward, act by which the whole process unity is shifted, and some respects in which the person’s manner of experiencing was previously structure-bound are reconstituted. Here I’ve obviously used a set of terms that constitutes a jargon that is not common stuff and unless you have read Genlin very carefully you cannot understand what I’m saying. So go read his theory of personality change here http://previous.focusing.org/gendlin/docs/gol_2145.html. Honestly it’s the best way to get into it, because I would probably be unable to make a better job at introducing this whole new jargon.
I could continue, but I’d rather make sure you’re back with me before going ahead too much.
Envelope
Posts: 15
Joined: Wed Jul 31, 2019 6:12 pm

Re: Hello, I'm Envelope

Post by Envelope »

Atlantique wrote: Fri Sep 06, 2019 7:36 am I have a physophical question. Why would someone want to name himself after a piece of paper?
What is this referred to? Could you maybe expand a bit?
Age
Posts: 5280
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: Hello, I'm Envelope

Post by Age »

Envelope wrote: Sun Oct 06, 2019 2:25 am
Age wrote: Thu Sep 05, 2019 6:12 pm
Envelope wrote: Wed Aug 28, 2019 10:41 am

Safe man, I've been working on the reply and sketched out a structure of all the points raised and I'm trying to bring everything together. Although, before I get into it, I feel we need to clarify our interaction dynamic. First of all, what do you mean more specifically by "finding" people?
Look for.

Seek out.
Envelope wrote: Wed Aug 28, 2019 10:41 amWhat is your reason for asking this question?
I KNOW how a Truly peaceful "world" can be created. But I have yet to 'find' the people who are prepared for this. So, if you can 'find the people', then creating this Truly peaceful "world" can really begin.
Envelope wrote: Wed Aug 28, 2019 10:41 amYou now mentioned some unspecified thing that you set out to do.
Create a Truly peaceful "world".
Envelope wrote: Wed Aug 28, 2019 10:41 am Has this chat got some other meaning or purpose for you other than discussing things for the sake of intellectual exploration of these topics?
Instead of just intellectual exploration I want to create these topics, if these topics includes creating a Truly peaceful "world" for EVERY one. I just want to start to make things really happen, instead of the continual talking about how to achieve them?

HOW to achieve peace is very simple and easy. Finding the 'right' people to help make this happen is somewhat harder.
Envelope wrote: Wed Aug 28, 2019 10:41 am If you'd like to share more about your position I'm sure we could make the chat more mutually enriching.
Okay. Did I share enough or would you like to know more?

The only real things worth sharing are the ones that you WANT TO KNOW. So, EVERY and ALL questions welcomed, the more the better I find. ALL intellectual challenges also accepted and very welcomed.
Hey man I’m really sorry for having disappeared for a month. Let’s pick this back up.

I now see that by finding people you mean you want to meet the right group of people to collaborate with and start changing the world in order to make it into a truly peaceful world for everyone.
Yes, I want 'to find the right people' who Truly Want to make the change needed, to create the "world" the way that they Truly Want it to be.

I want 'to find the right people', and not those people who just say that they want to change the "world", for the better. I want to find those who REALLY want to do some thing.
Envelope wrote: Sun Oct 06, 2019 2:25 amThe only problem with this view is that it mixes up two aspects of reality that shouldn’t be mixed up.
But my view NEVER mixed up "two aspects of reality" at all. So, could it have been just your interpretation of what I have said that has "mixed up two aspects of reality"?
Envelope wrote: Sun Oct 06, 2019 2:25 amIs that “peaceful” referred to an inner sensation or is it referred to an external situation?
Both.

One can not Truly exist without the other, could it?

How could a human being have REAL 'inner peace', and live that way, knowing, for example, that there are children living in wars, always terrified and worrying about when peoples from other countries will start dropping bombs on them, or being absolutely terrified with bombs from other regions flying over head in order to kill other human beings. Or, who could have True 'inner peace' knowing that there are children dying just from being hungry only when they live in an external situation where food gets thrown away into rubbish dumps?

And, how could a person not have 'inner peace' living in a world that they Truly want to live in, that is; a world where EVERY one is living together peacefully AND happily?
Envelope wrote: Sun Oct 06, 2019 2:25 amThese two sides of reality are connected because they influence each other, but if we want to make people peaceful inside the way to go is to give them the right tools.
I NEVER want to "make" people do any thing.

To me, if you want to "make" people peaceful, or "make" people do any thing else, then that will NEVER work. "Making" people do what you want, will NEVER work, successfully.

'To find the right people' means finding people who them, themselves, WANT to change. I certainly do not want to share some knowledge with some one who is not seriously interested in it them self anyway, especially because of the damage and harm that they could do with that knowledge.

For True change to occur, people, themselves, have to Truly Want that change first.

So, what I want to reveal is for those that WANT, and not for those that do NOT want. What I want to share is NOT about "making" any thing other than what it is that ALL people WANT, and that is; To be living together with EVERY one peacefully.
Envelope wrote: Sun Oct 06, 2019 2:25 amThe tools that you talked about are very good. The HOW formula, honesty, openness, will. Although if you communicate just these words to someone that wants to change they will not have a clue of what you’re talking about.
Of course they would not 'have a clue'. This is why 'finding the 'right' people' is so important. It is from the 'right people' that I will gain the 'right words' needed for ALL of this to be Truly and FULLY understood.

People have to be Truly curious in order to 'gain the clue', and to also understand the 'clue', and thus to literally 'have the clue', to what is really NEEDED to CREATE 'world peace'.
Envelope wrote: Sun Oct 06, 2019 2:25 am This will practically be of no utility. But if instead you help the person to feel himself and you listen to what he says, and you’re good at helping him stay in a relationship with his feelings rather than relating to the external environment in the ways that he already knows and that always generate the same dynamics, he will actually start changing.
That is just a tiny part of ALL that is to be revealed, and shared.
Envelope wrote: Sun Oct 06, 2019 2:25 amIf we want to make people peaceful outside there can be changes in the environment of each individual to help him change, but everyone is different and some people need very different things that are incompatible with others.
If that is what you see, and you know ALL of the different things needed for ALL of the different people, then you could start doing what you see is NEEDED. I, however, see that what you propose here will never work because of the complexity of it, so doing that would be just to hard as well.

What I see is the things that are the EXACT SAME for EVERY one, which when shared will united ALL people together, in an order so that ALL people change together, which will lead to the "world" becoming better and peaceful for EVERY one.

The two go together. Having internal individual peace AND external world peace. They both lead from and to each other. One helps in creating the other, and with the right formula in an extremely exponential way I might add.
Envelope wrote: Sun Oct 06, 2019 2:25 amPlus changing the elements of the environment is much more “expensive” than changing from within.
But from what I have seen, the way things will change then 'changing the elements of the environment' will NOT be 'expensive' at all really. In fact, it will cost just about zero relative to the money value of today, when this is written.
Envelope wrote: Sun Oct 06, 2019 2:25 amAnd this is why I say the pillar for a social change is a revolution at the individual level.
A lot of people say and refer to 'the change at the individual level' first. But sadly since they have been saying this, which could be for centuries now, the "world" has not exactly changed, for the 'better', in any True sense of the word at all. In fact, this SEARCHING for 'inner peace' for one's self only might actually be things worse, in some ways.
Envelope wrote: Sun Oct 06, 2019 2:25 amSo, if you want to meet some new people that are already completely at peace with themselves and are keen to collaborate on some practical project you just have to go and search for them. Although you have already found one: me.
Great. I knew I would find some one, some day, if, and when, I searched for them. So, now we will just have to wait and SEE what eventuates.

I really hope we can stay in contact more often than we have been.
Envelope wrote: Sun Oct 06, 2019 2:25 am In answer to your previous question, I am “truly” (you used the word truly, I would maybe say “enough”) open and honest to see and admit my wrong behaviours. And I am also truly willing to change. I have gone through complete ego deaths experiences many times. Moreover, I also can distinguish very clearly when I am in a position where I cannot be either open, honest, or willing enough. And so when I recognize that I’m in that position, I ask for help. And with help I always manage to improve myself, overcome obstacles, and change for the better.
You do sound PERFECT.
Envelope wrote: Sun Oct 06, 2019 2:25 amSo If you wanna join forces this would be amazing! In fact, this very discussion is basically the first attempt at a collaboration toward creating a world that is truly peaceful for everyone (intended in both ways).
I am more than happy to join 'together'. I do not like the word "forces'' as there is NOTHING in what I want to share that involves any sort of 'forcing' in any sort of way. I only want to find 'that' what is in agreement with, and by, EVERY one anyway, which then provides people with the actual things that they want to voluntarily do also anyway.

I do completely understand what you meant by the word "forces" but if people feel, in any way, that they are being "forced" to do any thing at all, or feeling "forced" to LOOK AT any thing in any particular way, then they will never reach that True internal happiness and inner peace, which we ALL are seeking and wanting.

To me, we have to share and reveal 'those things' that people will instantly relate with, understand, and see as what they have been LOOKING FOR, for themselves, so that they will instantly WANT to do things, and NOT feel "forced" that they 'have to' do any thing.

If any person feels in any way that some sort of "force" is against them, then this will NEVER work.
Envelope wrote: Sun Oct 06, 2019 2:25 amWe are now using the word peaceful, but obviously I’m taking it very loosely.
I am not. I literally mean a 'Truly peaceful world' for EVERY one. This is a 'world' where EVERY one is living internally and externally IN PEACE and HARMONY.
Envelope wrote: Sun Oct 06, 2019 2:25 am By peaceful I mean what only I know I mean, and explaining it would just be an unfulfilling act because there can be no full explication of an implicit meaning. So, let’s just think of peaceful as what we feel as a good thing.
To me, when EVERY one is, literally, living always happy within themselves and within a world where EVERY one is happy with each other, then that is what I partly mean by 'peace'.


There is much more to this, and every thing else, that I NEED to explain in much greater detail so that it ALL fits perfectly together, so that it is ALL understood FULLY. For example, hearing, "living always happy", may sound like a truly unrealistic thing to achieve, but what I fully mean by this will be seen to be actually some thing that is very achievable actually. Finding the right words to explain this just takes some time.

There is an explanation of an implicit meaning. Just 'finding the right people' who will help in the REVEALING of those 'right words', which explains the implicit, just takes some time.
Envelope wrote: Sun Oct 06, 2019 2:25 amAnyway, to make a new world, I would say that one of the first things to do would be to for us would be to diffuse a culture of self development and a jargon that is able to communicate effectively the meaning of the HOW formula.
Finding the right way to communicate this idea I accidentally stumbled across is the hardest thing to do. EVERY one has a different way of viewing and seeing things, so overcoming this with the right words, which can and will be understood by EVERY one, the same, is WHY I need to 'find the right people' to work with in order to 'find the right words' to explain ALL of this in a way that will be FULLY understood by EVERY one.
Envelope wrote: Sun Oct 06, 2019 2:25 amThis is what process jargon aims at doing. Reactivating stopped processes is not a thing that you do by telling yourself to stop. Stopped processes are respects in which experience is not in process. People have called this the unconscious. In process terminology we’d say instead that there is a process-skipping structure, or a frozen whole, that impedes the person to be able to experience certain things. As I was saying earlier, by helping a person to stay in contact with their felt sense they can find implicitly functioning feelings that can be explicated and therefore carried forward, act by which the whole process unity is shifted, and some respects in which the person’s manner of experiencing was previously structure-bound are reconstituted. Here I’ve obviously used a set of terms that constitutes a jargon that is not common stuff and unless you have read Genlin very carefully you cannot understand what I’m saying. So go read his theory of personality change here http://previous.focusing.org/gendlin/docs/gol_2145.html. Honestly it’s the best way to get into it, because I would probably be unable to make a better job at introducing this whole new jargon.
But has whatever this person has said actually changed the "world", for the better, for EVERY one. If not, then just like what "others", like "jesus", "buddha", and every "other person" have previously said, those words are obviously not the right words, which HAS created a Truly peaceful world for EVERY one, and thus not the right way.

To me, there is another way, which WILL work, this is just a combination of ALL the other ways. As I say I just need 'to find the right people' who I can share things with, and from their input, THEN the 'right words AND the right way' will come to light.

It will be from 'you', "them", were A WAY that actually works, will be revealed. Obviously no one person's way would be THEE way. But just as obvious is a A WAY that EVERY one formulates, or creates, together would be thee one way that ALL agree with AND accepts, any way.

Also, a "new jargon", or a "new set of words" that are not commonly used only creates more confusion and complexity than is really necessary. After all, ALL that is REALLY NEEDED is just the very basic and very simple 'common sense' and 'common knowledge' that we ALL already do KNOW, although it is still unconsciously KNOWN.

I have NOT read "genlin" nor even know who nor what it is. But what is the actual purpose of wanting to change "other" people's personalities?
Envelope wrote: Sun Oct 06, 2019 2:25 amI could continue, but I’d rather make sure you’re back with me before going ahead too much.
I am with you.

If you want to share the ideas of the person who you quoted above AND want to add that into other things to be discussed, then great and perfect. We can and would be able to work together. However, if you just want to say that that way, which you have read up on, is the only way to go or a way that has to be stuck to, then that will not work.

To create a Truly peaceful world ALL things need to be LOOKED AT and discussed, and not just some.
Envelope
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Re: Hello, I'm Envelope

Post by Envelope »

Age wrote: Mon Oct 07, 2019 6:32 am
I am with you.
Safe man, I'm really glad you are in a collaborative spirit too. Since we are on a philosophy forum, I would assume that we might now try and collaborate on thinking about some ideas. You up for that?
To collaborate on ideas we need language though, and language is made of words, which are just empty vessels if not filled up with a meaning that each of us knows in an experiential way. And I feel that your dissecting answers are just loosing completely the meaning behind my words, and are hindering our communication. Why don't you try to read my whole comment here, get a feeling for the overall meaning, and then try and reply with one whole comment that brings together as many ideas as you can?
I definitely don't want to rigidly propose one fixed view, I just thought that maybe if you read Gendlin we would have a better chance to communicate effectively, since here we were discussing my ideas of Neotribalism and I have used this language to think about it so far. I find it helps in creating models in my mind that can be used to think about a big philosophy of personal development and social change. This is the same principle that applies when you have to develop the concept of tensors from the simple concept of a vector in mathematics. If you wanna be able to describe general relativity with field equations, you need to develop the concept of tensors, which is a new jargon. Entering the process mentality and developing process jargon is quite equally paradigm shifting because, just as relativity is an expansion of newtonian mechanics, process mentality is an expansion of the wide-spread western reductionist materialistic mentality. To write the Neotribalism philosophy, which I would like to be a formula for describing the dynamics between psyche and society, I found myself having to use a type of language which is not very common. In fact I found myself having to create language, or rather synthesize the language that I picked up from different kinds of literature. I have come to see that the whole effort of creating a formula to understand our way into the future is a linguistic effort. This is the reason I was asking you to read Gendlin.
Although, if you'd like to drop my ideas and just start everything from zero, I'm totally up for that too. We don't have to follow my thread of thoughts of Neotribalism, I was only assuming we were doing that since that was what was happening until -1- was asking me questions.
Age
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Re: Hello, I'm Envelope

Post by Age »

Envelope wrote: Mon Oct 07, 2019 6:48 pm
Age wrote: Mon Oct 07, 2019 6:32 am
I am with you.
Safe man, I'm really glad you are in a collaborative spirit too. Since we are on a philosophy forum, I would assume that we might now try and collaborate on thinking about some ideas. You up for that?
Yes.
Envelope wrote: Mon Oct 07, 2019 6:48 pmTo collaborate on ideas we need language though, and language is made of words, which are just empty vessels if not filled up with a meaning that each of us knows in an experiential way. And I feel that your dissecting answers are just loosing completely the meaning behind my words, and are hindering our communication. Why don't you try to read my whole comment here, get a feeling for the overall meaning, and then try and reply with one whole comment that brings together as many ideas as you can?
I definitely don't want to rigidly propose one fixed view, I just thought that maybe if you read Gendlin we would have a better chance to communicate effectively, since here we were discussing my ideas of Neotribalism and I have used this language to think about it so far. I find it helps in creating models in my mind that can be used to think about a big philosophy of personal development and social change. This is the same principle that applies when you have to develop the concept of tensors from the simple concept of a vector in mathematics. If you wanna be able to describe general relativity with field equations, you need to develop the concept of tensors, which is a new jargon. Entering the process mentality and developing process jargon is quite equally paradigm shifting because, just as relativity is an expansion of newtonian mechanics, process mentality is an expansion of the wide-spread western reductionist materialistic mentality. To write the Neotribalism philosophy, which I would like to be a formula for describing the dynamics between psyche and society, I found myself having to use a type of language which is not very common. In fact I found myself having to create language, or rather synthesize the language that I picked up from different kinds of literature. I have come to see that the whole effort of creating a formula to understand our way into the future is a linguistic effort. This is the reason I was asking you to read Gendlin.
Although, if you'd like to drop my ideas and just start everything from zero, I'm totally up for that too. We don't have to follow my thread of thoughts of Neotribalism, I was only assuming we were doing that since that was what was happening until -1- was asking me questions.
Any word ending in an 'ism' is just more group mentality. Group mentality proposes that "my group 'ism' " is better than "your group 'ism' ". This group mentality is a form of 'separatism', which obviously would not work in bringing human beings together. 'Uniting' human beings together, as One, instead of separating them into "different" groups, is what leads to peace. Collaborating and working together as One unified group, with ALL on an absolute equal and level playing field with no hierarchy nor authority at all is what works.

We do not have to drop your ideas completely. Can they not be used in collaboration with other ideas? Unless your ideas will work solely by themselves in creating a Truly peaceful world for every one, then why not just add your ideas to other ideas?

You say that you are writing about a philosophy/ideology that you call neotribalism, which you see as the solution to the myriads of problems of today's society. Do you have any examples of these "problems" of today's, when this is written, society? And, any examples of how the idea that the psychological development of the individual is the crucial stepping stone that can allow us to level up in the way we organize the collaboration of human communities in society?

To me, what it appears like you want is to change the psychological personality of adults just back into their original state, that is; able to look at and see things from;
A Truly curious and passionate level, like that of a young child.
An Awareness level of anew and an OPENNESS, like that of a young child. And,
Able to let Life just flow and just live WITH Life instead of trying to control Life, like that of a young child.

I found the greatest teachers in Life, of what is actually True and Right are the new born, and not the already damaged adult who ALL need psychological development and change. The amusing part of all of this is, IF children are just left to their own devices, then there would not need to be a psychological change when they are older.

I find that if you can not explain things in a very simple and easy way, so that most people can understand it, then making up new words or new "jargon" is really not that helpful at all. New jargon and new meanings is really not that useful in being better understood anyway. Adding more layers of complexity, on to what is essentially just very simple and basic really, will obviously not make things any easier.

In essence, what does your 'neotribalism' actually do, and what will it actually create? What is the purpose of your 'neotribalism'?
surreptitious57
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Re: Hello, I'm Envelope

Post by surreptitious57 »

Age wrote:
I found the greatest teachers in Life of what is actually True and Right are the new born
and not the already damaged adult who ALL need psychological development and change
Adults may be more intelligent than children but they are also more closed minded than them
Even ones like me who try to be open minded but are still less so than when they were a child

It can be very hard if not impossible for an adult to retain the innocent mind of the child they once were
I try not to have fixed opinions about anything anymore but it is not always easy as I am no longer a child
Age
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Re: Hello, I'm Envelope

Post by Age »

surreptitious57 wrote: Mon Oct 07, 2019 10:44 pm
Age wrote:
I found the greatest teachers in Life of what is actually True and Right are the new born
and not the already damaged adult who ALL need psychological development and change
Adults may be more intelligent than children but they are also more closed minded than them
To me,

This is very contradictory, as 'intelligence' is directly related to OPENNESS.

The newborn and the very young are Truly OPEN and so extremely intelligent. Whereas, adults are extremely intellectual.

'Intelligence', is the ability to learn, understand, and reason.

'Intellect', already grasped knowledge.
surreptitious57 wrote: Mon Oct 07, 2019 10:44 pmEven ones like me who try to be open minded but are still less so than when they were a child
I found this to be a great insight.

Imagine getting transported to a completely other planet with completely "other" beings at the age you are now. Would you be LOOKING AT things, and then seeing them in relation to your already grasped knowledge? But say you were transported to that other planet with other beings when you under one year old. Would you then just live with what is around you, where nothing would be unusual, and would this just be how "Life" IS, and so just be?

As a one year old you would just pick up "their" language and learn to act and behave like they do? Whereas, as at the age you are now, you would be relating every thing back into your already grasped language, and trying to decipher things from that language. It would probably take a considerable period to learn their language and speak the way they do. Even your current accent might last for many, many years, whereas the one year old you would just pick up and speak their language and in their accent as well, and just live and be. But the now you would have to learn how to adjust and learn how to adapt to new environments. The child you just learns. It is not a new environment, in a sense, but just what IS.

Understanding intelligence, the ability to learn, understand, and reason, FULLY is very important in learning how to live in a Truly peaceful world. The only reason most adults BELIEVE that that world is completely impossible is because they have only experienced a non peaceful world, and have only learned about and only know of that world. If, however, when children are being born into the, soon to come, Truly peaceful world, then those children will just grow up in that world and just SEE it as what IS.

To them, that world would NOT be any thing unusual at all. But to the adults in the days, of when this is written, that world is laughed at because they LOOK AT the idea of that completely foreign and strange world from the intellectual, and not the intelligence, and so there is NOTHING in that intellect that could show how that would could even be a possibility to become reality and exist.
surreptitious57 wrote: Mon Oct 07, 2019 10:44 pmIt can be very hard if not impossible for an adult to retain the innocent mind of the child they once were
I would say that it would be near impossible to not have the 'intellect', already grasped knowledge, as an adult, so retaining that complete and absolute 'innocence' one had as a child I agree would be near impossible. BUT, to be as OPEN as one was as a child can be done very easily. Although, in saying that I would agree that maintaining that OPENNESS every waking minute could be a lot harder, but learning and gaining the right knowledge it is very possible to do.

Complete OPENNESS does not mean that all already grasped knowledge is completely gotten rid of nor forgotten, but rather just being able to LOOK AT things from the completely OPEN viewpoint, which means without any prejudices from the previously gained knowledge, then that is very possible and a very easy thing to do. Only THEN, use your previously gained knowledge to help in working out what the actual Truth of things IS.
surreptitious57 wrote: Mon Oct 07, 2019 10:44 pmI try not to have fixed opinions about anything anymore but it is not always easy as I am no longer a child
I find not having any fixed opinions, or BELIEFS, became a very easy thing to do, when I chose to do it. Even children can have fixed opinions and BELIEFS so it is not about being OPEN is some thing only children can do.

As a new born EVERY one is completely OPEN, we just loose this ability growing up because we are taught that we HAVE TO BELIEVE things. Paradoxically, it is because we are SO OPEN as a child that we then have the ability to learn SO EASILY 'that' what then eventually CLOSES us up and keeps us CLOSED.
Envelope
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Re: Hello, I'm Envelope

Post by Envelope »

Age wrote: Mon Oct 07, 2019 10:09 pm
In essence, what does your 'neotribalism' actually do, and what will it actually create? What is the purpose of your 'neotribalism'?
Some problems with today's society: qualitatively cheap products on the shelves of grocery stores; pointless commodities; wasteful services (restaurants, etc); useless technological updates; advertisements that exploit our weaknesses to sell us stuff we don’t need; fetishized images of how we’re supposed to have fun; industries that make supposedly useful products, but only as a by-product of their pursuit of profit; industries that in their pursuit of profit completely disregard their eco-compatibility or animals’ life; today’s politics (both for the corruption and for the centrilizing power structure).

We have come to today's society out of an effort to survive, where everyone, being afraid of dying, engaged in collaboration out of a place of fear and therefore imposing a natural hierarchy on the society. All the problems above and all the others I haven't mentioned come from this core problem.
There was a type of human society that was different before we even started writing and recording history: the tribe. Although the tribe was an isolated nucleus which was in conflict with all the other tribes. Hence, tribe mentality, and -ISMs today have not got much of a good reputation. Although, within the tribe, people were able to maintain a direct contact with all the members and collaborate out of a place of love, and this shaped our body systems and emotions quite a lot since this phase of homo sapiens lasted for ~130,000 years.

Obviously Neotribalism is not a tribal mentality like the old tribalism, but is a new type which doesn't define itself as a nucleus in conflict with any other group, hence the NEO.

The reason I call it this is because we still have in us a strong tribal drive, which is very useful as long as we learn to re-channel our need to define our identity against something else. If we learn to deal with that then we are left with the feeling of being in a tribe (which is a family) that includes all humans, all animals, and the whole planet earth, in fact, the whole universe.

So here's why personal development is what could allow us to level up to a society that doesn't stay together because of fear but because of love: because by expanding our personal identity we can expand our tribe to the whole universe.
Age
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Re: Hello, I'm Envelope

Post by Age »

Envelope wrote: Tue Oct 08, 2019 12:25 pm
Age wrote: Mon Oct 07, 2019 10:09 pm
In essence, what does your 'neotribalism' actually do, and what will it actually create? What is the purpose of your 'neotribalism'?
Some problems with today's society: qualitatively cheap products on the shelves of grocery stores; pointless commodities; wasteful services (restaurants, etc); useless technological updates; advertisements that exploit our weaknesses to sell us stuff we don’t need; fetishized images of how we’re supposed to have fun; industries that make supposedly useful products, but only as a by-product of their pursuit of profit; industries that in their pursuit of profit completely disregard their eco-compatibility or animals’ life; today’s politics (both for the corruption and for the centrilizing power structure).

We have come to today's society out of an effort to survive, where everyone, being afraid of dying, engaged in collaboration out of a place of fear and therefore imposing a natural hierarchy on the society. All the problems above and all the others I haven't mentioned come from this core problem.
There was a type of human society that was different before we even started writing and recording history: the tribe. Although the tribe was an isolated nucleus which was in conflict with all the other tribes. Hence, tribe mentality, and -ISMs today have not got much of a good reputation. Although, within the tribe, people were able to maintain a direct contact with all the members and collaborate out of a place of love, and this shaped our body systems and emotions quite a lot since this phase of homo sapiens lasted for ~130,000 years.

Obviously Neotribalism is not a tribal mentality like the old tribalism, but is a new type which doesn't define itself as a nucleus in conflict with any other group, hence the NEO.

The reason I call it this is because we still have in us a strong tribal drive, which is very useful as long as we learn to re-channel our need to define our identity against something else. If we learn to deal with that then we are left with the feeling of being in a tribe (which is a family) that includes all humans, all animals, and the whole planet earth, in fact, the whole universe.

So here's why personal development is what could allow us to level up to a society that doesn't stay together because of fear but because of love: because by expanding our personal identity we can expand our tribe to the whole universe.
I agree with a lot you say here, to a certain extent.

But what i also found is if you Truly want to fix a problem, then the best way to do that is through prevention, instead of a cure. Also, if you want to help "others", then you need to help yourself first. And, you can not fix a problem until you admit you have a problem first.

You above allude to one 'problem' of the society, when this is written, which is greed. So, WHY are you so greedy?

Obviously a society itself is not greedy, but the human beings who make up a society can be and are greedy. Therefore, if greed is a problem of a society, then WHY are ALL of 'you', adult human beings, of that society GREEDY?

The BEST way to fix a problem is to discover what causes the problem in the beginning, then the problem can be prevented from ever recurring again, and thus FIXED, once, and for ALL, forever more. To get rid of greed from ALL of society, then each and EVERY one just has to work out WHY they, themselves, ARE GREEDY. The answer to this is the EXACT SAME for EVERY one.

Once 'you', human beings, STOP being greedy, there is NO more greed, then all of those problems you listed above will be gone for good, and HOW to prevent them from ever reoccurring again also will be KNOWN.

The beauty of ridding the planet of greed completely, once and for all, is that you will NOT want a tiny fraction of what you want now, so no one will want money. There will NOT be a company existing for profit. So, then absolutely EVERY thing becomes cheaper anyway. People will go to places not to work for money, but to just stay in contact, associate, interact, and collaborate with "others". Sharing of ideas and thoughts will happen for love of sharing and communicating, and not for the money that could be obtained. Prices of EVERY thing will reduce almost instantly and exponentially. There will be NO need for work, but people will still want to do things, for the betterment of society instead. People will work together for the interests of EVERY one, instead of working just for their own individual and very select few selves.

I am not sure though 'we', human beings, have come to where we are now, when this is written, out of every one being afraid of dying. Some human beings for millenniums just lived, without fear of living and dying. These ones just survived WITH the environment that they were a part of. To me, hierarchy flourished because some people actually BELIEVED that they were better or more deserving of what "others" were. Also, I would NOT say ALL tribes were in conflict with all other tribes yet. Although it may well be true that ALL were. I just have not yet seen any actual evidence for this yet. It was after all the inter-tribal breeding, which has got us to where we are now. So, there has to be some form of non-conflict between all tribes for this to occur.

Your 'neotribilism' word works, quite well, from the way you define it, and for the purpose you described. I, however, would just use a different word for bringing EVERY one together as one universal One.

We have the 'need' to define things against some other things, but I would not say we have a 'need' to define ourselves against other things. 'we', human beings, have just defined ourselves against other things because of the 'need' we have to define ABSOLUTELY EVERY thing separately. This 'need' exists because this is HOW we LEARNED to navigate AND understand the 'world', the Universe.

I agree we have a strong tribal drive, and this is because we naturally belong WITH the Universe, so we have strong DESIRE or WANT to belong. We have a strong desire to be part of a tribal family, and want to feel wanted with that tribal family. To me, adult human beings over complicate and make hard what is essential just extremely simple and easy. There is NOTHING hard nor complicated about just living, and being alive. But, most adult human beings, in the days when this is written, would say otherwise. However, if we ALL went back to living the tribal ways of before, and lived under that tribal lore, of which there was only ONE. That is; Do not abuse any thing, then Life, living and being alive would be just so easy and simple once more. If we got rid of ALL the laws and just replaced with one lore, which we would all want to voluntarily follow anyway, then Life would become so easy again, combine that with NO greed at all, then society would be stress free and simple again as well. Also, without greed, then ALL naturally sustaining energy sources would be sought too.

The tribal way of Life and living as One family unit would just be extend out to ABSOLUTELY EVERY thing in the Universe. Loving EVERY one as though they are as 'you' your Self. This Universal tribal loving family would stick together as One because there, literally, is no one else to go against.

To start ALL of this off, however, I found that separation of this family unit NEEDS to first take place. That is children NEED to be separated from adults. For the very fact that adults will usually ONLY change when what is dearest to them is taken from them. Also, because some one has to be responsible for their behaviors. Children did NOT want to come into this 'world', Universe, adults brought them into It. So, it is solely adults' responsibility for what children experience (see, hear, feel, et cetera) and learn.

So, to separate the responsible ones for their behaviors, from the ones who not YET responsible for the behaviors, what is first NEEDED is adults to admit the WRONG DOING that they do. Then, through Honesty, OPENNESS, and a serious Want to change, for the better, THEN that is HOW a Truly peaceful (non greedy, stress-free, non warring, and pollution-free) "world" for EVERY one can begin. Adults would not just be creating the world that they Truly want for their children to live in but the world that they Truly WANT and DESIRE to live in also.

If adults create the world that they truly want for their children, then the adults are the ones who reap the rewards also. Adults are never more happy when they see their children happy. And if children are living in a Truly peaceful and harmonious world, then they will ALWAYS be 'happy'.

There is only One Universe, and there is only One planet, that we know of that we would to Truly want to live on, so the ONLY place that heaven (or hell) could exist is HERE on earth.

In the AFTER LIFE, when this greedy, war-torn, stressful, and pollution-riddled way of life, existing when this is written, has dies and passed on, then the NEW Life that we ALL want will begin.

Your 'personal development' will be a big part of this creating a NEW Life on earth, as it is in heaven. When adults start re-developing themselves, and ridding themselves of greed, then by these very behaviors they will be STOPPING their children growing up greedy, which will prevent greed from coming back into society, which will fix the problems, or heal the ills of the world.
Envelope
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Re: Hello, I'm Envelope

Post by Envelope »

Great, you get it! You just described it your own way.

Now the next step is to identify the cause of greed.

The cause of greed is our historical situation of having to struggle for survival, which causes this greedy orientation in our physiologies. Our physiologies are plastic though, hence we can start working on it. And there are many ways, the many schools of psychotherapy available today have answers for everyone. Each person can find their preferred method.

But for humans to recognize our greed and then to work on it, we need help. And in the first place this help could be in the form of a culture around you that tells you that you need to find your psychotherapy school. This is why I think a culture of self-development needs to be spread. Self development doesn't end in a perfect image of yourself, but it outpours into the social realm, hence this culture will spawn collaboration and connection between people.

As things progress forward, to turn into adults we need to start taking responsibility. So, if we have been lucky enough to have been given the support to recognize our greed and work on it, then we can also start working toward taking the responsibility for ourselves and our environment. Therefore we'll start to take care of everything we need, like food for example, and rather than mindlessly buy it off the shelves we can start learning how to grow it. While growing it we will come in contact with the earth and learn to respect it and take care of it. And this attitude of replacing our dependence from the system with knowledge of how to do everything we need will just escalate to any area of society until the whole system will be completely replaced. In doing this we will not be taking up responsibility as hermits but as groups because of the reason I said in the previous paragraph and since our nature allows us to directly keep in contact with only a small number of people we will likely be doing this in little tribes, which will obviously be connected between each other and not in a state of conflict since everyone will have learnt how to respect and take care of their environment because of the work that they do, and therefore replacing the centralized structure of our political system with a more distributed structure.

This is the vision
Envelope
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Re: Hello, I'm Envelope

Post by Envelope »

Age wrote: Tue Oct 08, 2019 1:44 pm .
sorry, forgot to quote you. read above
Age
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Re: Hello, I'm Envelope

Post by Age »

Envelope wrote: Tue Oct 08, 2019 3:26 pm Great, you get it! You just described it your own way.

Now the next step is to identify the cause of greed.

The cause of greed is our historical situation of having to struggle for survival, which causes this greedy orientation in our physiologies. Our physiologies are plastic though, hence we can start working on it. And there are many ways, the many schools of psychotherapy available today have answers for everyone. Each person can find their preferred method.
But, to me, the cause of greed is not because of having to struggle for survival at all.

In fact 'we', human beings, have NEVER had to struggle to survive. Some just have this misconception that we have.

Also, how many people really want 'psychotherapy'? How many people really think that they need 'psychotherapy'?

If there are really not that many, then how are these people going to work out WHY they are greedy? How many people would even recognize or would even admit that they are greedy in the first place, in order to seek out psychotherapy?

And how many of those schools of psychotherapy available that have answers for every one would a person have to go through before they find the one with their own preferred method?

Also, if the reason every one is greedy is just because of human beings historical situation of "having to struggle for survival", then why would any one need to go to a psychotherapy school to just be informed of this "fact"?
Envelope wrote: Tue Oct 08, 2019 3:26 pmBut for humans to recognize our greed and then to work on it, we need help. And in the first place this help could be in the form of a culture around you that tells you that you need to find your psychotherapy school. This is why I think a culture of self-development needs to be spread. Self development doesn't end in a perfect image of yourself, but it outpours into the social realm, hence this culture will spawn collaboration and connection between people.
Is this culture of self-development, which you say needs to be spread, based on being available to be free for ALL people, or is it some thing that people will be charged a fee for?

If there is a form of culture around that tells you that you "need" to find your psychotherapy school, then really what is the difference between that culture and the current culture, of when this is written, where a form of culture is continually you that you "need" things, which you also then 'need' to pay for?

Also, who really likes being told, "You NEED to find your psychotherapy school", anyway? The 'psychotherapy' word can have a very strong negative connotation to it.

And, the self-development that I see occurring does in fact lead to the revealing of, and thus the discovery of, the True Self, which leads to the KNOWING of Thy Self or 'Who 'I' am?'. This ultimately ends in a perfect image of Thy Self. This, to me, is what will Truly unite ALL people together. If ALL are SEEN as equal, then ALL can Truly unite together.
Envelope wrote: Tue Oct 08, 2019 3:26 pmAs things progress forward, to turn into adults we need to start taking responsibility. So, if we have been lucky enough to have been given the support to recognize our greed and work on it, then we can also start working toward taking the responsibility for ourselves and our environment.
What would you say to an adult that gives them the support to recognize that it is them who is greedy and it is them the reason WHY the "world" has ALL the problems that it does? For example what could I say to 'you', envelope, so that you would recognize that it is 'you' WHY the "world" is in the mess it is in now? What support would you want and need in order for you to start to make the change so that the "world" would be healed of all of its ills?
Envelope wrote: Tue Oct 08, 2019 3:26 pmTherefore we'll start to take care of everything we need, like food for example, and rather than mindlessly buy it off the shelves we can start learning how to grow it. While growing it we will come in contact with the earth and learn to respect it and take care of it.
But people are to busy working to find the time to grow any thing. They HAVE TO "work" in order to get more money to buy the things that the culture around them keeps telling them that they "need", and "need" more of, to keep living and surviving, things like; beauty products, clothing, continually newer gadgets, newer cars, newer houses, newer and more diets, newer and more alcohol, newer and more books on diets, newer and more books on self-development, more fast food, and more of the other completely unnecessary stuff we tell each other we NEED to live AND survive.

People do not have the time to grow any thing because they live in a culture where they "need" to work more, in order to keep giving the people with more money now ever more and more money. ALL adults have been pressured into adopting radically distorted beliefs by a culture, which uses systemic and forcible psychological techniques to trick them into believing those distorted things that are believed to be true.
Envelope wrote: Tue Oct 08, 2019 3:26 pmAnd this attitude of replacing our dependence from the system with knowledge of how to do everything we need will just escalate to any area of society until the whole system will be completely replaced.
You first need to explain HOW you STOP your own self from being greedy, and explain HOW you changed, before we could really start LOOKING AT how to replace our dependency from this system, which in turn then changes the 'whole system'.
Envelope wrote: Tue Oct 08, 2019 3:26 pmIn doing this we will not be taking up responsibility as hermits but as groups because of the reason I said in the previous paragraph and since our nature allows us to directly keep in contact with only a small number of people we will likely be doing this in little tribes, which will obviously be connected between each other and not in a state of conflict since everyone will have learnt how to respect and take care of their environment because of the work that they do, and therefore replacing the centralized structure of our political system with a more distributed structure.
But the group that supports to take up responsibility is the group that is now telling you, when this is written, that every thing is already being taken care of, like food for example. The "support" is here now telling you to just keep working and keep buying things, like food, and then every thing will be just fine.

Why would greedy people tell you any thing different?

So, how can we actually start getting greedy people to admit that they are greedy, and then getting them to WANT to stop being greedy?
Envelope wrote: Tue Oct 08, 2019 3:26 pmThis is the vision
That is A vision. If it is workable or not to achieve the outcome sort, then we will have to know more things first.
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