Thomas Kuhn (1922-1996)

[Sculptor]

Religion is the antithesis of progress.

I see your point, and I think there's truth in it.

But I also think a strong case could be made that most people who contributed something to "progress" were religious,

In spite of their religon, yes.

...
and beyond that, with many discoveries, theories, and inventions there were elements of dreams or other inspirations that the recipients ascribed to a higher power. Creative people often describe their process as themselves being a vessel or conduit for something greater.

So, IMO there's right in that statement, and there's wrong

I think the point about Thomas Kuhn is that the work for which he was most famous for, he is essentially saying that where Science has ceome its own doctrine is whee it impededs progress.
WHere people think they have the absolute answer is when they resist change and progress; where knowledge is dogma.

This pretty much accurately desribes religion to a T. Religion presents as a collection of ansolute eternal truths, which are dogmaticaly expressed as the only truth

[Andy M]

Religion is the antithesis of progress.

I see your point, and I think there's truth in it.
But I also think a strong case could be made that most people who contributed something to "progress" were religious,

In spite of their religon, yes.

We might say in spite of, but to them it's because of.

In the search for understanding, I think it behooves us to try and appreciate their perspective.

I think the point about Thomas Kuhn is that the work for which he was most famous for, he is essentially saying that where Science has ceome its own doctrine is whee it impededs progress.

WHere people think they have the absolute answer is when they resist change and progress; where knowledge is dogma.

This pretty much accurately desribes religion to a T. Religion presents as a collection of ansolute eternal truths, which are dogmaticaly expressed as the only truth

We can definitely agree on that. Maybe it's my blue-collar background, but I like to summarize and reduce things into bite-size chunks for quick and easy digestion. I'm sure I'm not the first to say it, but I would have simply said: Science has become religion.

I advocate for a lot more philosophy books to be shorter

Science has also become a big buisness - an industry with lots of people making money. So it's vulnerable to the same corruption that comes with any industry or large social activity.

As far as the "progress" and "science vs religion" thing - all things being equal - I would not say that religion necessarily inhibits progress. I would say it's more accurate to say that religion inhibits (if not completely halts) rationality. But I think progress largely depends on creativity, and there have been lots of creative people that are straight-up looney tunes, whether that be religious or otherwise.

A condensed version of that thought might be: Progress (or creativity) isn't based on rationality.

Cheers.

[Sculptor]

I see your point, and I think there's truth in it.
But I also think a strong case could be made that most people who contributed something to "progress" were religious,

In spite of their religon, yes.

We might say in spite of, but to them it's because of.

WHo is "they" exactly?
Name one advance in science that has not also required a denial and rejection of some religious dogma.

In the search for understanding, I think it behooves us to try and appreciate their perspective.

I think the point about Thomas Kuhn is that the work for which he was most famous for, he is essentially saying that where Science has ceome its own doctrine is whee it impededs progress.

WHere people think they have the absolute answer is when they resist change and progress; where knowledge is dogma.

This pretty much accurately desribes religion to a T. Religion presents as a collection of ansolute eternal truths, which are dogmaticaly expressed as the only truth

We can definitely agree on that. Maybe it's my blue-collar background, but I like to summarize and reduce things into bite-size chunks for quick and easy digestion. I'm sure I'm not the first to say it, but I would have simply said: Science has become religion.

No not really. New ideas still supplant the old, and discoeveries continue to come.
The big issue with the "Paradigm shift", is that for each new paradigm a cogent argument has to be made for it against the old guard whose life's work and reputation depend on the old.
Behind the top scientists of the old school are an army of people who, not appraciating the details, tend to cling to what they were taught at school.
THey have neither the evidence nor the chops to argue against the new paradigm but a great in number.
FOr example. Nutrition is a fast changing field ATM.
A very CHarismatic Ansel Keys told the world that saturated fat and cholesterol were killing us.
Every nutritionist came to accept this as fact.
40 years later the epidemic of obesity, T2D and heart disease is the result of this bad adivie as we have all replaced fat with more carbs HFCS, and other refined sugars.
But now saturated fat and dietary cholesterol is exongerated, but there is so much vested in the old knoweldge and money (funded by the perveyors of processed foods), that heart associetioan, diabetes assocaitions and fat clincis still push the old nonsense.
The method of science remains intact, and Ansel Keys' original strudies have been taken apart and shown wanting.

Science has also become a big buisness - an industry with lots of people making money. So it's vulnerable to the same corruption that comes with any industry or large social activity.

It's not so much that science is big business; but that big business has colonised science and the governments that fund it.

As far as the "progress" and "science vs religion" thing - all things being equal - I would not say that religion necessarily inhibits progress. I would say it's more accurate to say that religion inhibits (if not completely halts) rationality. But I think progress largely depends on creativity, and there have been lots of creative people that are straight-up looney tunes, whether that be religious or otherwise.

A condensed version of that thought might be: Progress (or creativity) isn't based on rationality.

Cheers.

Religion inhibits progress is a no brainer.