If I can imagine it, it's logically possible?

What is the basis for reason? And mathematics?

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If I can imagine it, it's logically possible?

Poll ended at Fri Apr 19, 2019 4:31 pm

Yes, if I can imagine it, then it's logically possible.
1
20%
No, I can imagine something, and it's not logically possible.
2
40%
I don't know.
0
No votes
The question doesn't make sense.
2
40%
 
Total votes: 5

Logik
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Re: If I can imagine it, it's logically possible?

Post by Logik »

-1- wrote: Mon Apr 01, 2019 11:47 am What you described, Logik, does not happen. You are cherry-picking not facts, but your own obsessive imagination. You are more lucid than JohnDoe7, but essentially you do the same: you believe your own phantasms that you freely quote on the pages of these forums as if they were standard, accepted knowledge.

Whereas they are not. They are easily refutable bullshit.
I told you before. I am telling you again. The fact that you can't tell the difference between what I say and What JohnDoe7 says is precisely your problem. And evidence for the fact that what I say, does, in fact happen.

It's happening right now.

You don't understand my jargon because it's not in a dictionary and you can't be bothered to read the references I keep providing. You are claiming that I am talking bullshit, when it is in fact accepted knowledge by millions of computer scientists, physicists, mathematicians, logicians, statisticians, economists, engineers etc. It not accepted by the general population, but that's the general population's problem. In 100 years that which I say may will be "common sense" - who knows?

You can't understand what I am saying because you lack the background knowledge to understand my words.
This is exactly the phenomenon described here: https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/HLqWn5L ... -distances

That is how easy it is to end up on the wrong side. That is how trivial it is to fool yourself.

Yet there you are. Unable to distinguish signal from noise, so you are playing it safe. You paint me with the same brush as JohnDoe7.

Rather safe than sorry. Which is precisely what every Sophist does when they run out of technical depth. Can't think for yourself, so you'd rather go with that which is "commonly accepted" eh ?

Say "baaaaaa!"
surreptitious57
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Re: If I can imagine it, it's logically possible?

Post by surreptitious57 »

Logic wrote:
Can you think of something that is PHYSICALLY possible but it is not LOGICALLY possible ?
Is not physical possibility a sub set of logical possibility ? Logic has to be axiomatically true but physical has to be empirically true
Not everything that is true in theory will be true in practice and it is why hypotheses have to be tested to determine their validity
surreptitious57
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Re: If I can imagine it, it's logically possible?

Post by surreptitious57 »

Remember what Feynman said : if it disagrees with experiment it is wrong - so logic is not always reliable
By logic I mean hypotheses or propositions that are perfect on paper but not perfect when actually tested
Logik
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Re: If I can imagine it, it's logically possible?

Post by Logik »

surreptitious57 wrote: Mon Apr 01, 2019 3:07 pm Is not physical possibility a sub set of logical possibility ? Logic has to be axiomatically true but physical has to be empirically true
Not everything that is true in theory will be true in practice and it is why hypotheses have to be tested to determine their validity
That's precisely the point. There are numerous different taxonomies/conceptions.

Let "logically possible" = L
Let "imaginable" = I
Let "physically possible" = P

There are at least 8 possible taxonomies just because we have 2^3 permutations of L,I,P.
Then there is a permutation for every possible relationship between any two sets. Parent-child (superset-subset), siblings (intersection OR disjunction), isomorphism (material equivalence). I am sure I am missing some, but 2*2*2*4 = 32 different interpretations/conceptions.

I am just going to list the ones I can thumb-suck in 2 minutes (missing a bunch because I can't be bothered to be rigorous with such poorly stated question).

Which one of these is wrong?

A. I ⊇ L ⊇ P
B. L ⊇ I ⊇ P
C. I ∩ L ∩ P
D. I ⊇ L, P; L ∩ P
E. I ⊇ L, P; L ∨ P
F. L ⊇ I,P, I ∩ P
G. L ⊇ I,P, I ∨ P
H. ( I ⇔ L ) ⊇ P
I. P ⊇ ( I ⇔ L )
J. P ∩ ( I ⇔ L )

What the Frenchie keeps calling a "derail" is me exposing his intentional obscurantism.
surreptitious57
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Re: If I can imagine it, it's logically possible?

Post by surreptitious57 »

It should be remembered that empiricism isnt always required to test logic
For example mathematical statements can be determined true or false within the axioms of mathematics

But statements about physical reality have to be empirically tested because they are based upon evidence
Here are some famous examples of why it is not wise to rely on logic alone

Logic says that the bumblebee should not be able to fly because of its non aerodynamic body : in reality it flies very easily indeed

Logic says that general relativity and quantum mechanics are mutually incompatible : in reality they are entirely complementary

Logic says that two particles cannot communicate instantaneously with each other across space because of the finite
speed of light : in reality they do communicate instantaneously [ though how they actually do so remains a mystery ]

Logic says that a heavy object will hit the ground quicker than a light object where both are dropped
from the same height at the same time : in reality they both hit the ground at exactly the same time
Logik
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Re: If I can imagine it, it's logically possible?

Post by Logik »

surreptitious57 wrote: Mon Apr 01, 2019 4:27 pm Logic says that the bumblebee should not be able to fly because of its non aerodynamic body : in reality it flies very easily indeed
We have robotic bees so clearly somebody wrote an algorithm for it. hence: logic.
https://wyss.harvard.edu/technology/aut ... -robobees/
surreptitious57 wrote: Mon Apr 01, 2019 4:27 pm Logic says that general relativity and quantum mechanics are mutually incompatible : in reality they are entirely complementary
That's because you start with different assumptions e.g you apply them in different contexts. a.k.a domain of applicability.

You can't use GR to at quantum scale and you can't use QED at close to light speed or black hole gravities.

surreptitious57 wrote: Mon Apr 01, 2019 4:27 pm Logic says that two particles cannot communicate instantaneously with each other across space because of the finite
speed of light : in reality they do communicate instantaneously [ though how they actually do so remains a mystery ]
The don't communicate. They are entangled. We cannot transmit information over entanglement.
surreptitious57 wrote: Mon Apr 01, 2019 4:27 pm Logic says that a heavy object will hit the ground quicker than a light object where both are dropped
from the same height at the same time : in reality they both hit the ground at exactly the same time
No, they don't actually. A feather and a bowling ball don't accelerate at the same speed. Unless in a perfect vacuum.
Atla
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Re: If I can imagine it, it's logically possible?

Post by Atla »

Speakpigeon wrote: Sat Mar 30, 2019 4:23 pm If I can imagine it, it's logically possible.
Test: square circle? No, I can't.
Test: The Earth is flat? Yes, I can.
Test: God? Well, I sure can imagine something, but I wouldn't say it looks like God. So, me, I can't.
OK, it's good to me, if I can imagine it, it's logically possible.
EB
Only someone who has no clue what "logical" means could even pose such a question.

Friendly advice, stop trying to play the intellectual and do something else with your life.
Atla
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Re: If I can imagine it, it's logically possible?

Post by Atla »

Speakpigeon wrote: Sat Mar 30, 2019 6:15 pm And this shows an infinite past with a beginning is logically possible even though that doesn't help with the ordinary notion of an infinite past without a beginning.
EB
Oh look and now it's an "ordinary notion".. lol..
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Dontaskme
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Re: If I can imagine it, it's logically possible?

Post by Dontaskme »

Speakpigeon wrote: Sat Mar 30, 2019 4:23 pm If I can imagine it, it's logically possible.
Test: square circle? No, I can't.
Test: The Earth is flat? Yes, I can.
Test: God? Well, I sure can imagine something, but I wouldn't say it looks like God. So, me, I can't.
OK, it's good to me, if I can imagine it, it's logically possible.
EB
The I that thinks it can imagine is also imagined.

Is some thing can be imagined then it must by association exist.

A square circle exists as it is imagined, an imagined thing is an idea. Ideas are what make no thing some thing which is essentially nothing more than just pure dreamscape.



.

So then you could say I have never seen a square circle so it can't possibly exist. But then you haven't really seen any thing, all things are imagined, conceptualised by imagination that has never been seen, so even the thought of an absent square circle still exists.
If you can think it, it exists.

.
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Speakpigeon
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Re: If I can imagine it, it's logically possible?

Post by Speakpigeon »

Atla wrote: Sun Apr 07, 2019 2:11 pm Only someone who has no clue what "logical" means could even pose such a question.
Friendly advice, stop trying to play the intellectual and do something else with your life.
As long as you can't argue shit.
EB
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Speakpigeon
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Location: Paris, France, EU

Re: If I can imagine it, it's logically possible?

Post by Speakpigeon »

surreptitious57 wrote: Mon Apr 01, 2019 4:27 pm Logic says that the bumblebee should not be able to fly because of its non aerodynamic body
Logic doesn't say that. Idiots do.
surreptitious57 wrote: Mon Apr 01, 2019 4:27 pm Logic says that general relativity and quantum mechanics are mutually incompatible
Logic doesn't say that.
Scientists do from what they are able to infer logically from their empirical observations.
surreptitious57 wrote: Mon Apr 01, 2019 4:27 pm Logic says that two particles cannot communicate instantaneously with each other across space because of the finite speed of light
Logic doesn't say that.
Scientists do from what they are able to infer logically from their empirical observations.
If you know best, you should give them a call. They'll be impressed.
surreptitious57 wrote: Mon Apr 01, 2019 4:27 pm Logic says that a heavy object will hit the ground quicker than a light object where both are dropped from the same height at the same time
Logic doesn't say that.

We see the Sun move in the sky so it's tempting to come to believe that the Sun turns around the Earth. Logic doesn't tell you it does. People believe that on the basis of the empirical evidence available to them. Logic is not responsible for the misleading empirical evidence that's available to us.

Copernicus used his imagination to understand that it was indeed a logical possibility that it was in fact the Earth that turned around the Sun. And guess what? It seems he was right.
EB
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