Which Ultimate Truths Can Be Proven "Beyond a Reasonable Doubt"?

For all things philosophical.

Moderators: AMod, iMod

TryingMyBest
Posts: 18
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2018 3:58 am

Which Ultimate Truths Can Be Proven "Beyond a Reasonable Doubt"?

Post by TryingMyBest » Wed Dec 19, 2018 11:17 pm

I don't need absolute certainty, just the same level of confidence needed to strip someone of their rights (in my country).
I want to propose some categories that fit "ultimate truth" in my mind.
I can't separate thinking from believing in my mind; if I think it's true then I believe it; if I think it's not true then I don't believe it.
My hope is to collect a variety of truths and then be able to use whichever one is most useful in any given situation.
As it is currently, I need to believe in something so that I may keep the truth in mind and follow true steps toward true success. Without these, I could be acting in a way that is self-defeating. Without the truth to guide me I feel like I am blindly blundering through life. =( So I am looking for useful ways to view and think about the world that stand up to reason.
So which theories/statements/proposals/assertions/dialectics can be believed beyond a reasonable doubt?

An ultimate truth could be something useful, such as something to keep in mind in our daily lives that help us reach our potential.
An ultimate truth could be a method of thinking/behaving (or a dialectic) that, when followed, always leads one into more favorable circumstances.
An ultimate truth could be the collection of truths that remain true in each and every decent theory. (Like factoring in math and identifying the common prime factors.)
An ultimate truth could be the metaphorical statue that remains when all false objects/assertions have been chiseled away from reality.
An ultimate truth could be the sum total of all things true and their relationships with each other.
An ultimate truth could be a set of word-formulas/equations that serve to derive and to be the foundation of human understanding and knowledge.
An ultimate truth could be a simple statement of fact, such as "reality reflects reality" but would have to stand up to and be confirmed by the state-of-the-art theories that currently exist.
I imagine that an ultimate truth would have to be true at all times.

User avatar
Eodnhoj7
Posts: 4701
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:18 am

Re: Which Ultimate Truths Can Be Proven "Beyond a Reasonable Doubt"?

Post by Eodnhoj7 » Wed Dec 19, 2018 11:39 pm

TryingMyBest wrote:
Wed Dec 19, 2018 11:17 pm
I don't need absolute certainty, just the same level of confidence needed to strip someone of their rights (in my country).
I want to propose some categories that fit "ultimate truth" in my mind.
I can't separate thinking from believing in my mind; if I think it's true then I believe it; if I think it's not true then I don't believe it.
My hope is to collect a variety of truths and then be able to use whichever one is most useful in any given situation.
As it is currently, I need to believe in something so that I may keep the truth in mind and follow true steps toward true success. Without these, I could be acting in a way that is self-defeating. Without the truth to guide me I feel like I am blindly blundering through life. =( So I am looking for useful ways to view and think about the world that stand up to reason.
So which theories/statements/proposals/assertions/dialectics can be believed beyond a reasonable doubt?

An ultimate truth could be something useful, such as something to keep in mind in our daily lives that help us reach our potential.
An ultimate truth could be a method of thinking/behaving (or a dialectic) that, when followed, always leads one into more favorable circumstances.
An ultimate truth could be the collection of truths that remain true in each and every decent theory. (Like factoring in math and identifying the common prime factors.)
An ultimate truth could be the metaphorical statue that remains when all false objects/assertions have been chiseled away from reality.
An ultimate truth could be the sum total of all things true and their relationships with each other.
An ultimate truth could be a set of word-formulas/equations that serve to derive and to be the foundation of human understanding and knowledge.
An ultimate truth could be a simple statement of fact, such as "reality reflects reality" but would have to stand up to and be confirmed by the state-of-the-art theories that currently exist.
I imagine that an ultimate truth would have to be true at all times.
The question is what is "proof"?

In order define proof, you need a further proof, then another, etc.

Each proof is a point of origin.

Each proof progresses to another proof linearly

Each proof reference another proof so proof becomes self-referential circularly

Proof effectively is in a state of movement; hence the constants of proof effectively is "space".

Dalek Prime
Posts: 4922
Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2015 4:48 am
Location: Living in a tree with Polly.

Re: Which Ultimate Truths Can Be Proven "Beyond a Reasonable Doubt"?

Post by Dalek Prime » Thu Dec 20, 2018 7:36 pm

I posted this elsewhere, but will just paste it here.
_______________________

1. There is thought. ie. I have awareness. I exist.

2. There are things that exist whether I am aware of them or not. They are independent of my thought. I accept this from the first premise because these things persist beyond the scope of my awareness of them. ie. The ground I sleep on is there when I awaken from falling asleep on it. So it's a reasonable assumption that it exists independently of me, that is, my thought. My mind doesn't create it. There is no solipsism.

Having stated the independence of things beyond my thought, 3. my thought gives the independent thing its value. It has no intrinsic value (value in and of itself) because it does not have a capacity for value judgment. Only those things which have thought can project value on something else beyond its thought. Only thought itself has, or can have, an intrinsic value (again, value in and of itself).

Veritas Aequitas
Posts: 2468
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:41 am

Re: Which Ultimate Truths Can Be Proven "Beyond a Reasonable Doubt"?

Post by Veritas Aequitas » Fri Dec 21, 2018 5:23 am

What is truth?

Generally what is truth is any proposition that conforms with reality conditioned upon an agreed [by humans] Framework and System of verification and justification.
For example scientific truths are conclusions qualified to the Scientific Framework and System as agreed by the relevant scientists. The others are legal, economics, political etc.

What is claimed as Ultimate or Absolute Truth is any conclusion [proposition] that is absolutely independent and not conditioned by any human-based Framework and System of verification and justification.

Theists will claim whatever is of God and from God is the ultimate truth since God is the Absolute itself, i.e. totally unconditioned by anything.
However I have proven God is an impossibility, thus there is no question of God having to do with ultimate truths. Therefore, the claim that God exists or God can promised eternal life in a real heaven cannot be an ultimate truth.

Some will claim 'the Sun exists' is an ultimate independent truth. No! that is only a conditional scientific empirical truth. It cannot be an ultimate truth because such a truth is conditioned by the Scientific Framework and System.

Therefore there is no such thing as an ultimate truth of reality. The truth of reality is always relative to the Framework and System used.

Nevertheless humans can think of an ultimate truth, e.g. God exists as an Absolute but it can never be taken as real. Normally theists will think of God as Absolute, all powerful, omni-whatever for psychological purposes to relieve their existential Angst.

Nick_A
Posts: 4162
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 1:23 am

Re: Which Ultimate Truths Can Be Proven "Beyond a Reasonable Doubt"?

Post by Nick_A » Fri Dec 21, 2018 5:44 am

TryingMyBest wrote:
Wed Dec 19, 2018 11:17 pm
I don't need absolute certainty, just the same level of confidence needed to strip someone of their rights (in my country).
I want to propose some categories that fit "ultimate truth" in my mind.
I can't separate thinking from believing in my mind; if I think it's true then I believe it; if I think it's not true then I don't believe it.
My hope is to collect a variety of truths and then be able to use whichever one is most useful in any given situation.
As it is currently, I need to believe in something so that I may keep the truth in mind and follow true steps toward true success. Without these, I could be acting in a way that is self-defeating. Without the truth to guide me I feel like I am blindly blundering through life. =( So I am looking for useful ways to view and think about the world that stand up to reason.
So which theories/statements/proposals/assertions/dialectics can be believed beyond a reasonable doubt?

An ultimate truth could be something useful, such as something to keep in mind in our daily lives that help us reach our potential.
An ultimate truth could be a method of thinking/behaving (or a dialectic) that, when followed, always leads one into more favorable circumstances.
An ultimate truth could be the collection of truths that remain true in each and every decent theory. (Like factoring in math and identifying the common prime factors.)
An ultimate truth could be the metaphorical statue that remains when all false objects/assertions have been chiseled away from reality.
An ultimate truth could be the sum total of all things true and their relationships with each other.
An ultimate truth could be a set of word-formulas/equations that serve to derive and to be the foundation of human understanding and knowledge.
An ultimate truth could be a simple statement of fact, such as "reality reflects reality" but would have to stand up to and be confirmed by the state-of-the-art theories that currently exist.
I imagine that an ultimate truth would have to be true at all times.
I don't need absolute certainty, just the same level of confidence needed to strip someone of their rights (in my country).
I want to propose some categories that fit "ultimate truth" in my mind.
I can't separate thinking from believing in my mind; if I think it's true then I believe it; if I think it's not true then I don't believe it.
You seem more concerned with self justification than with truth. The best way to strip others of their rights is to learn how to become a premier demagogue. Then you can talk them into anything.

If that fails just eliminate them. It is the surest way to strip them of their rights. That was the purpose of the KGB in the old Soviet Union.

Seeking truth won't strip another of their rights. Create your own reality and acquire the force necessary to enforce it. What better way to acquire self justification?

Walker
Posts: 6817
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2015 12:00 am

Re: Which Ultimate Truths Can Be Proven "Beyond a Reasonable Doubt"?

Post by Walker » Fri Dec 21, 2018 8:24 am

TryingMyBest wrote:My hope is to collect a variety of truths and then be able to use whichever one is most useful in any given situation.
Ultimate truth is part of every situation.

For instance, I am is true, all else is inference.

The usefulness of truth is that it sets you free from ignorance and its deleterious effects upon life*, but reading and collecting does not equate to understanding the relationship between truth and freedom.



* The absolute measure of ethics, morality, and philosophy.

Walker
Posts: 6817
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2015 12:00 am

Re: Which Ultimate Truths Can Be Proven "Beyond a Reasonable Doubt"?

Post by Walker » Fri Dec 21, 2018 12:42 pm

The absolute truth takes many forms.
The six-word form is suited for times of distraction.

Example:
Time not important. Only life important.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6SJnReLKQvM

It’s the absolute truth, and not just because an entity speaking through a walking machine says so.

commonsense
Posts: 1150
Joined: Sun Mar 26, 2017 6:38 pm

Re: Which Ultimate Truths Can Be Proven "Beyond a Reasonable Doubt"?

Post by commonsense » Fri Dec 21, 2018 11:49 pm

What is proof and what is truth have already been discussed above. So now, it only remains to ask what is beyond a reasonable doubt?

For something to be beyond any doubt, it must be an absolute certainty. To be beyond reasonable doubt, something only needs to be probable.

How probable? Therein lies the rub.

The amount of confidence that one has in the probability of something is really a matter of feeling comfortable.

How comfortable is comfortable? Therein lies the rub, once again.

In any case, comfort summons confidence, which, in turn, summons a probability.

So, as a practical guide, if you feel confident that something is probably true, then it is beyond a reasonable doubt for you.

To determine what is an acceptable standard for a reasonable doubt, look for a consensus.

Yet all of the above is logically a waste of time.

If something could be an ultimate, I.e. absolute, truth, it is, by definition, beyond any doubt, and accordingly beyond all reasonable doubt.

surreptitious57
Posts: 3449
Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2013 6:09 am

Re: Which Ultimate Truths Can Be Proven "Beyond a Reasonable Doubt"?

Post by surreptitious57 » Sat Dec 22, 2018 4:03 am

Only that which has been falsified / disproven by science or proven / disproven by maths can be an ultimate truth
Falsification or disproof is easier than proof because all it takes to disprove the statement : all swans are white
is one black swan. To prove it would require absolute knowledge of every swan that had ever existed and would
therefore have to include future swans that had yet to be born. Something that would be practically impossible
It is probably easier to find ultimate truth within mathematics and logic [ one plus one equals two for example ]

gaffo
Posts: 2330
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:15 am

Re: Which Ultimate Truths Can Be Proven "Beyond a Reasonable Doubt"?

Post by gaffo » Sat Dec 22, 2018 5:03 am

TryingMyBest wrote:
Wed Dec 19, 2018 11:17 pm
I don't need absolute certainty,
why not?

only absolute is that "I exist right now"

and you may exist outside me or just be me talking to myself right now.

that is the only Truth knowable in this realm.

am i talking to myself, or are you real outside of me?

best of luck in your endevers, proving you exist outside of me.

gaffo
Posts: 2330
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:15 am

Re: Which Ultimate Truths Can Be Proven "Beyond a Reasonable Doubt"?

Post by gaffo » Sat Dec 22, 2018 5:08 am

Dalek Prime wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 7:36 pm
I posted this elsewhere, but will just paste it here.
_______________________

1. There is thought. ie. I have awareness. I exist.

2. There are things that exist whether I am aware of them or not. They are independent of my thought. I accept this from the first premise because these things persist beyond the scope of my awareness of them. ie. The ground I sleep on is there when I awaken from falling asleep on it. So it's a reasonable assumption that it exists independently of me, that is, my thought. My mind doesn't create it. There is no solipsism.

Having stated the independence of things beyond my thought, 3. my thought gives the independent thing its value. It has no intrinsic value (value in and of itself) because it does not have a capacity for value judgment. Only those things which have thought can project value on something else beyond its thought. Only thought itself has, or can have, an intrinsic value (again, value in and of itself).
only #1 is self evident, and it is only me talking to myself via "you".

the rest - inculding your demand you exist outside of my consciousness is hogwash.

you cannot prove you exist as an outside entity, and i've no time reading post from me about you existing outside of me.

gaffo
Posts: 2330
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:15 am

Re: Which Ultimate Truths Can Be Proven "Beyond a Reasonable Doubt"?

Post by gaffo » Sat Dec 22, 2018 5:11 am

Dalek Prime wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 7:36 pm


2. There are things that exist whether I am aware of them or not.
bullshit - such is faith and not emperically provable (only thing that is is "I am" right now - you are me pramatically and emprically, outside of me - an article of faith (I'm an Athiest, so don't waste my time proving you exist please).

gaffo
Posts: 2330
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:15 am

Re: Which Ultimate Truths Can Be Proven "Beyond a Reasonable Doubt"?

Post by gaffo » Sat Dec 22, 2018 5:19 am

Walker wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 8:24 am
TryingMyBest wrote:My hope is to collect a variety of truths and then be able to use whichever one is most useful in any given situation.
Ultimate truth is part of every situation.

For instance, I am is true, all else is inference.

there are no "truths" only one Truth.

and concur.

i hope you exist outside of me, i like you Sir, from your posts (in spite of supporting a Mancurian Candidate).

but all i know of Truth is via my mind and post from "you" here - which emprically is via "me" - and so you may just be me and not actually exist! - outside of me reading posts from "you" (me talking to myself).

Walker wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 8:24 am

The usefulness of truth is that it sets you free from ignorance and its deleterious effects upon life*, but reading and collecting does not equate to understanding the relationship between truth and freedom.



* The absolute measure of ethics, morality, and philosophy.
???word salid, from me to me?

welcome clarification even if to myself.

gaffo
Posts: 2330
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:15 am

Re: Which Ultimate Truths Can Be Proven "Beyond a Reasonable Doubt"?

Post by gaffo » Sat Dec 22, 2018 5:25 am

commonsense wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 11:49 pm
What is proof and what is truth have already been discussed above. So now, it only remains to ask what is beyond a reasonable doubt?

For something to be beyond any doubt, it must be an absolute certainty. To be beyond reasonable doubt, something only needs to be probable.

certainty is the only high bar WRT to Truth.

you can shove your reasonable doubt, this require Faith - and so throws out empirism and not valid.

commonsense
Posts: 1150
Joined: Sun Mar 26, 2017 6:38 pm

Re: Which Ultimate Truths Can Be Proven "Beyond a Reasonable Doubt"?

Post by commonsense » Sat Dec 22, 2018 4:05 pm

gaffo wrote:
Sat Dec 22, 2018 5:25 am
commonsense wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 11:49 pm
What is proof and what is truth have already been discussed above. So now, it only remains to ask what is beyond a reasonable doubt?

For something to be beyond any doubt, it must be an absolute certainty. To be beyond reasonable doubt, something only needs to be probable.

certainty is the only high bar WRT to Truth.

you can shove your reasonable doubt, this require Faith - and so throws out empirism and not valid.
Agreed, actually.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests