If humans were universally kind, we would have no need of laws or morality at all. And there would be no wars, because nobody would ever want to start one, or to continue one, once it started.Gary Childress wrote: ↑Mon May 06, 2024 2:48 pmI'd love to believe that if humans are kind to each other and solve problems through cooperation instead of warfare, that would be reward enough for engaging in kindness and cooperation. I take it you don't believe that is so?Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon May 06, 2024 2:34 pmI'm not avoiding. I know perfectly well, and have always said, that a person who disbelieves in God has no hope of establishing reasons to believe in objective morality. And since you reject God, that's you...and I'm honouring your supposition and treating it as serious.Harbal wrote: ↑Mon May 06, 2024 2:26 pm
My only purpose here is to argue that there are no such things as objective moral truths; hence objective morality is an impossibility. So if objective morality is out of the conversation, I have no reason to take part in the conversation. As far as I'm concerned, you persistence in avoiding the moral objectivity argument demonstrates that you haven't really got one.
But the resulting impossibility of your being convinced of objective moral values is not a failure of God to exist, or of objective morality to be real. It's a natural consequence your own assumption. You've already ruled out the only condition under which objective morality can exist. I agree with that: that's what you've done. So I'm not surprised that you conclude objective morality cannot exist.
I'm accepting your assumption, and showing you where that actually leaves you -- not with a different "morality," but with absolutely no basis for any morality at all. And fear is driving you away from the inescapable conclusion: you don't want to be a Nihilist, so you pull back to an unwarranted confidence in fake, purely subjective "moralizing," instead of going into that pit.
I get it. It's what every Subjectivist does.
We don't have to rob, rape, murder or wage war on each other. There's no necessity of any of it. And yet, we do it all the time. In fact, it seems we cannot STOP doing it, even when we want to. Why is the US involved in a war with Russia in a country as distant as Ukraine? It makes no sense at all, really. But here we all are again.
How do we account for that, Gary? If an optimistic view of human nature would put an end to war, rape, murder and theft, would we not all simply adopt that optimistic view and be done with it all?