Is morality objective or subjective?

Should you think about your duty, or about the consequences of your actions? Or should you concentrate on becoming a good person?

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Immanuel Can
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Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by Immanuel Can »

FlashDangerpants wrote: Tue May 07, 2024 8:33 pm Objective morality is a fiction...
Here's the interesting thing about a fiction: it only works if it gives off the illusion of fact. The worlds fiction creates have to look or seem real, and the characters and situations have to strike us as human and plausible, even in the wildest fiction.

In a similar way, subjective moralizing only works because it assumes the mantle of objective morality. It pretends to be a "morality," in other words, and pretends to have value in delivering the goods we always look for in objective morality. It pretends it can make us "good people," or "principled" or "decent." It pretends it can inform an agreement, a polity or a civilization. It pretends its delivering real moral information to us. But all the while, it delivers none of these things.

It's pure self-will dressed up in the borrowed robes of moral rectitude. It makes us think we're "good" for only being impulsive and self-centred. Yet, if imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, and if, as is the case fiction offers tribute to the reality of fact, subjective moralizing kneels as the feet of objective morality, without which subjectivity would be able to achieve no moral sheen at all, and would be seen for the empty fiction it really is.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by Immanuel Can »

iambiguous wrote: Tue May 07, 2024 8:55 pm Right, right. You're job is to remind us that no one can be saved unless they accept Jesus Christ as their own personal savior.
I don't have to. You just did it.

So you know. And my responsibility to you is finished. It's up to you, now.
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phyllo
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Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by phyllo »

In which case you would probably not consider it an objective fact that Paris smells fishy. And suppose a virus swept around the world, causing every living creature to lose its sense of smell. Would Paris still smell fishy then?
I already said, in the original post about it, that a human nose is required to detect it.

If there are no human noses detecting it, then there is no fishy smell.
They can if they think something smells of fish and no element of fish is present, but if they claim that something smells like fish to them, who is to say that it doesn't? 🤔
A fish need not be present for there to be a fishy smell.
Trimethylamine (TMA) is the simplest tertiary aliphatic amine. It’s responsible for the pungent odor given off by fish and other marine and aquatic animals. It is also a degradation product of plants that have high nitrogen contents and a distillation product of sugarbeet residues.
https://www.acs.org/molecule-of-the-wee ... amine.html
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phyllo
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Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by phyllo »

Immanuel Can wrote: Tue May 07, 2024 8:48 pm
phyllo wrote: Tue May 07, 2024 8:40 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue May 07, 2024 8:35 pm
Everyone's are business of God. But yours and Harbal's are not mine. I am not the Judge. And it's not my job to set the standard for you. There is One who does that, and you must do your business with Him.
So what do you do? Stand by and watch? Wait for the last judgement?
What do you do? You believe God now, and go His way, accept His moral standard, and establish your ongoing relationship with Him. Or, you use yourself as your moral 'standard,' and wait and hear the truth later.

We aren't "standing by." We all get to choose actively...in fact, we're all choosing actively right now, whether we realize it or not.
But you have to know and judge their behavior in order to be active.
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Harbal
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Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by Harbal »

Immanuel Can wrote: Tue May 07, 2024 9:01 pm
FlashDangerpants wrote: Tue May 07, 2024 8:33 pm Objective morality is a fiction...
Here's the interesting thing about a fiction: it only works if it gives off the illusion of fact.
So that is why you deny the Bible is fiction. 🤔
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iambiguous
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Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by iambiguous »

phyllo wrote: Tue May 07, 2024 8:31 pm
iambiguous wrote: Tue May 07, 2024 8:24 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue May 07, 2024 8:12 pm Why were you suddenly talking about your private sexual proclivities? I can't recall having asked, and it's certainly none of my business..." :?
Well, as a Christian, aren't your sexual propensities the business of God? After all, what if they include child molestation or rape or orgies or posting videos on Pornhub?

Shouldn't you always be asking yourself, "what would Jesus do?"

In or out of bed.

How about a new thread in the applied ethics forum...God, religion and sex. What's okay and what's not. :wink:
Certain sexual proclivities would seem to be the concern of a moral society.

Child molestation, rape, and sexual harassment.Right?
Yes, for mere mortals, that can an important distinction to make.

On the other hand, in choosing those behaviors, you first have to be caught doing them, right? Whereas the Christian God is said to be omniscient. And "down here" if you are caught breaking the law you can be sent to prison. Whereas with God you can end up suffering excruciating torment in Hell for all of eternity.

Then this part:
Right, right. [The Christian's] job is to remind us that no one can be saved unless they accept Jesus Christ as their own personal savior. And, surely, that entails asking yourself "what would Jesus do?".

In or out of bed.

Would Jesus masturbate? Would Jesus watch porn? Would Jesus tolerate homosexuality? Would Jesus condone sex outside of marriage? Would Jesus sanction "scarlet letters" for adultery?

Start here: https://www.google.com/search?q=the+chr ... s-wiz-serp

Then get back to us on what truly is okay or not okay for Christians to do sexually all the way up to Judgment Day.
And then the part where any number of these folks...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_r ... traditions
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_p ... ideologies
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_s ... philosophy

...have their objective assessment of human sexuality.
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Harbal
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Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by Harbal »

phyllo wrote: Tue May 07, 2024 9:08 pm A fish need not be present for there to be a fishy smell.
So true.
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iambiguous
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Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by iambiguous »

Immanuel Can wrote: Tue May 07, 2024 9:03 pm
iambiguous wrote: Tue May 07, 2024 8:55 pm Right, right. You're job is to remind us that no one can be saved unless they accept Jesus Christ as their own personal savior. And, surely, that entails asking yourself "what would Jesus do?".

In or out of bed.

Would Jesus masturbate? Would Jesus watch porn? Would Jesus tolerate homosexuality? Would Jesus condone sex outside of marriage? Would Jesus sanction "scarlet letters" for adultery?

Start here: https://www.google.com/search?q=the+chr ... s-wiz-serp

Then get back to us on what truly is okay or not okay for Christians to do sexually all the way up to Judgment Day.
I don't have to. You just did it.

So you know. And my responsibility to you is finished. It's up to you, now.

Of course: Mr. Snippet, Mr. Wiggle.

Now, that's entertainment! :wink:
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phyllo
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Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by phyllo »

Yes, for mere mortals, that can an important distinction to make.

On the other hand, in choosing those behaviors, you first have to be caught doing them, right? Whereas the Christian God is said to be omniscient. And "down here" if you are caught breaking the law you can be sent to prison. Whereas with God you can end up suffering excruciating torment in Hell for all of eternity.
Point number 1 to settle is whether it is the business of people to know about the sexual activities of others.

And it seems that it is appropriate to some degree in order to protect children and others from molestation, rape and harassment.

Can that be agreed on?
Will Bouwman
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Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by Will Bouwman »

Skepdick wrote: Tue May 07, 2024 8:58 pm
Will Bouwman wrote: Tue May 07, 2024 8:47 pmCareful Skepdick; you're in danger of learning something.
I'm dusting off old skills... Horses for courses.
Phew! Panic over.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by Immanuel Can »

phyllo wrote: Tue May 07, 2024 9:11 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue May 07, 2024 8:48 pm
phyllo wrote: Tue May 07, 2024 8:40 pm
So what do you do? Stand by and watch? Wait for the last judgement?
What do you do? You believe God now, and go His way, accept His moral standard, and establish your ongoing relationship with Him. Or, you use yourself as your moral 'standard,' and wait and hear the truth later.

We aren't "standing by." We all get to choose actively...in fact, we're all choosing actively right now, whether we realize it or not.
But you have to know and judge their behavior in order to be active.
Why?
Will Bouwman
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Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by Will Bouwman »

Immanuel Can wrote: Tue May 07, 2024 9:01 pm
FlashDangerpants wrote: Tue May 07, 2024 8:33 pm Objective morality is a fiction...
Here's the interesting thing about a fiction: it only works if it gives off the illusion of fact. The worlds fiction creates have to look or seem real, and the characters and situations have to strike us as human and plausible, even in the wildest fiction.
That is your best argument for the veracity of the Bible to date. Even you shy from pretending it gives off the illusion of fact.
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phyllo
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Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by phyllo »

Immanuel Can wrote: Tue May 07, 2024 9:47 pm
phyllo wrote: Tue May 07, 2024 9:11 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue May 07, 2024 8:48 pm
What do you do? You believe God now, and go His way, accept His moral standard, and establish your ongoing relationship with Him. Or, you use yourself as your moral 'standard,' and wait and hear the truth later.

We aren't "standing by." We all get to choose actively...in fact, we're all choosing actively right now, whether we realize it or not.
But you have to know and judge their behavior in order to be active.
Why?
You have to judge how do deal with people. You have to judge whether they are doing something 'deviant' or dangerous or trivial or harmless. Then you have to decide how to deal with it.

That would seem to be fairly obvious.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by Immanuel Can »

Will Bouwman wrote: Tue May 07, 2024 9:52 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue May 07, 2024 9:01 pm
FlashDangerpants wrote: Tue May 07, 2024 8:33 pm Objective morality is a fiction...
Here's the interesting thing about a fiction: it only works if it gives off the illusion of fact. The worlds fiction creates have to look or seem real, and the characters and situations have to strike us as human and plausible, even in the wildest fiction.
That is your best argument for the veracity of the Bible to date. Even you shy from pretending it gives off the illusion of fact.
I don't "shy" away from any such thing, actually. But I'm still waiting for your question or comment, Will.
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Harbal
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Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by Harbal »

Immanuel Can wrote: Tue May 07, 2024 10:05 pm But I'm still waiting for your question or comment, Will.
Well if it's anything to do with the underwear, just remember I asked first.
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