Will Adolf Hitler Be Saved (End Up in Heaven)?

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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Belinda
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Re: Will Adolf Hitler Be Saved (End Up in Heaven)?

Post by Belinda » Thu Jul 12, 2018 6:54 pm

Nick wrote:
I don't know if you are familiar with the great chain of being. That is the eternal order. The life of a dog is always changing yet its being, its "isness" remains the same. Man is unique in that its "being" can evolve from a creature of mechanical reaction into a conscious being. It is impossible for a dog.

Instead of the faith IN blind belief why not strive to experience the faith OF Christ as a human attribute? Then Simone might make sense:
I can't find an essence in anything or anybody. We are prone change, every cell, and every part of our personalities. To aim for the sort of faithfulness that Christ had is a good aim but it can be only be an aim.

Belinda
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Re: Will Adolf Hitler Be Saved (End Up in Heaven)?

Post by Belinda » Thu Jul 12, 2018 6:54 pm

Nick wrote:
I don't know if you are familiar with the great chain of being. That is the eternal order. The life of a dog is always changing yet its being, its "isness" remains the same. Man is unique in that its "being" can evolve from a creature of mechanical reaction into a conscious being. It is impossible for a dog.

Instead of the faith IN blind belief why not strive to experience the faith OF Christ as a human attribute? Then Simone might make sense:
I can't find an essence in anything or anybody. We are prone to change, every cell, and every part of our personalities. To aim for the sort of faithfulness that Christ had is a good aim but it can only be an aim.
Yes, there are people who have been Christlike , and others who have been Christlike on some occasions.But this was not an essence, although it may seem to be so and we want it to be so.
Last edited by Belinda on Thu Jul 12, 2018 6:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

seeds
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Re: Will Adolf Hitler Be Saved (End Up in Heaven)?

Post by seeds » Thu Jul 12, 2018 6:57 pm

seeds wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 1:42 am
According to Christianity, the only reason that a human soul needs saving (salvation) in the first place is based on a precept that sometime in the past (in a setting called The Garden of Eden), the so-called “fall of man” took place.

However, if we can logically presume that the phantasmagorical events that allegedly transpired in Eden...

(i.e., a talking snake, along with magical trees and a fruit-snatching caper)

...are nothing more than mythological nonsense, then the entire foundational premise upon which the need for salvation is derived can be dismissed.

In other words, if there was no literal “fall of man,” then what are we talking about here?
Nick_A wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 3:29 am
...IMO it isn’t that there was no literal fall of man but rather understanding what it means requires more than what the dualistic literal mind is capable of.
Why are you so certain of the veracity of the specific details of Christian mythology (i.e., the “fall of man”) while ignoring the specific details of, for instance, the Japanese mythology concerning the escapades of Izanagi?

According to Wiki in regards to Izanagi:
Wiki wrote: He with his spouse and younger sister Izanami gave birth to the many islands of Japan (kuniumi), and begat numerous deities of Shintoism (kamiumi). But she died after giving birth to the fire-god Kagu-tsuchi. Izanagi executed the fire god with the "ten-grasp sword" (Totsuka-no-tsurugi). Afterwards, he paid his wife a visit in Yomi-no-kuni (the Underworld) in the hopes of retrieving her. But she had partaken of food cooked in the furnace of the Underworld, rendering her return impossible. Izanagi betrayed his promise not to look at her, and lit up a fire, only to behold her in her monstrous and hellish state. To avenge her shame, she dispatched the lightning god Yakusa no ikazuchi no kami (Raijin) and the horrible hag Yomotsu-shikome to chase after him. Izanagi escaped, but the goddess declared to kill a thousand of his people every day. Izanagi retorted that a thousand and five hundred will be born every day.
Now I’m sure that one could step inside of that jumble of mythological nonsense and apply Jungian theories to that also, but why bother?

As I have stated over and over again (while drawing upon Buddhist mythology), these stories are just the temporary “rafts” that help to carry humans across the waters of earthly life – rafts that will be abandoned upon the shore of death.

And I truly believe that just as we are all presently partaking in a commonly shared context of existence within this closed bubble of reality that we call a universe,...

...likewise, we will all (and that includes Hitler) partake in a commonly shared context of existence at the moment of physical death.

And the bottom line is that no matter what happens to us following the event of physical death...

(whether it be eternal life with an ever-evolving and ever-fruitful purpose -- OR -- eternal oblivion)

...it will be the exact same conditions for all of us, and it will not require any form of “salvation” from what we did or did not do within the confusing din and atmosphere of life on earth.
_______

Nick_A
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Re: Will Adolf Hitler Be Saved (End Up in Heaven)?

Post by Nick_A » Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:51 pm

Belinda wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 6:54 pm
Nick wrote:
I don't know if you are familiar with the great chain of being. That is the eternal order. The life of a dog is always changing yet its being, its "isness" remains the same. Man is unique in that its "being" can evolve from a creature of mechanical reaction into a conscious being. It is impossible for a dog.

Instead of the faith IN blind belief why not strive to experience the faith OF Christ as a human attribute? Then Simone might make sense:
I can't find an essence in anything or anybody. We are prone to change, every cell, and every part of our personalities. To aim for the sort of faithfulness that Christ had is a good aim but it can only be an aim.
Yes, there are people who have been Christlike , and others who have been Christlike on some occasions.But this was not an essence, although it may seem to be so and we want it to be so.
The faith of Christ isn't a faith in anything but a conscious human attribute which connects above and below. Since you are unfamiliar with the Great Chain of Being or the esoteric teachings I can appreciate why faith for you can only be experienced as a faith in this or that. But at this time I should at least introduce the Great Chain of Being. It explains the verticality of creation in which the hierarchy of qualities of life within the universe are arranged.

This explanation can be misleading but good enough to get the point across. I don't like the use of the word authority. The Great Chain of being is a food chain.

http://faculty.grandview.edu/ssnyder/12 ... 0chain.htm
In their 1936 work, The Great Chain of Being: The History of an Idea, the scholars E. M. W. Tillyard and A. O. Lovejoy argued that ancient and medieval thought was shaped by particular ideological framework known as the "The Chain of Being." Sometimes called the Scala Natura (scale of nature), this view saw all of creation existing within a universal hierarchy that stretched from God (or immutable perfection) at its highest point to inanimate matter at its lowest. One can see something of this hierarchy in Plato's ranking of human souls in the Phaedrus, but also in Aristotle's notion that the capacity to act upon reason rather than instinct distinguishes human beings from animals.

Indeed, each link in the Great Chain of Being represented a distinct category of living creature or form of matter. Those creatures or things higher on the Chain possessed greater intellect, movement, and ability than those placed below. Thus each being in the Chain possessed all of the attributes of what was below plus an additional, superior attribute:

God: existence + life + will + reason + immortality + omniscient, omnipotent
Angels: existence + life + will + reason + immortality
Humanity: existence + life + will + reason
Animals: existence + life + will
Plants: existence + life
Matter: existence
Nothingness

As a result of this hierarchy, creatures and things on a higher level were believed to possess more authority over lower ones. Plants, for instance, were believed to have authority over the minerals in the soil. They were superior to minerals because, unlike inert matter, they were alive and capable of growth. Consequently, they had God’s sanction to draw nutrients from the earth and grow upon it, while the minerals and soil existed to support plants. Similarly, animals--a step higher on the Chain of Being--were thought to have authority over both inanimate plants and minerals. So horses could trod on rocks and earth and eat plants. Humans in turn were believed to possess greater attributes than animals. Thus it was proper for them to rule over the rest of the natural world. Similarly, spiritual beings like angels and God had greater ability than humanity and so ruled over and controlled humanity as well as the rest of the animal and the inanimate world………………..
The being of the lower supports the being of the higher and eventually the higher involves to be food for the lower. The horse eats the grass and eventually dies to feed the earth and the grass.

Nick_A
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Re: Will Adolf Hitler Be Saved (End Up in Heaven)?

Post by Nick_A » Thu Jul 12, 2018 9:20 pm

seeds wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 6:57 pm
seeds wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 1:42 am
According to Christianity, the only reason that a human soul needs saving (salvation) in the first place is based on a precept that sometime in the past (in a setting called The Garden of Eden), the so-called “fall of man” took place.

However, if we can logically presume that the phantasmagorical events that allegedly transpired in Eden...

(i.e., a talking snake, along with magical trees and a fruit-snatching caper)

...are nothing more than mythological nonsense, then the entire foundational premise upon which the need for salvation is derived can be dismissed.

In other words, if there was no literal “fall of man,” then what are we talking about here?
Nick_A wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 3:29 am
...IMO it isn’t that there was no literal fall of man but rather understanding what it means requires more than what the dualistic literal mind is capable of.
Why are you so certain of the veracity of the specific details of Christian mythology (i.e., the “fall of man”) while ignoring the specific details of, for instance, the Japanese mythology concerning the escapades of Izanagi?

According to Wiki in regards to Izanagi:
Wiki wrote: He with his spouse and younger sister Izanami gave birth to the many islands of Japan (kuniumi), and begat numerous deities of Shintoism (kamiumi). But she died after giving birth to the fire-god Kagu-tsuchi. Izanagi executed the fire god with the "ten-grasp sword" (Totsuka-no-tsurugi). Afterwards, he paid his wife a visit in Yomi-no-kuni (the Underworld) in the hopes of retrieving her. But she had partaken of food cooked in the furnace of the Underworld, rendering her return impossible. Izanagi betrayed his promise not to look at her, and lit up a fire, only to behold her in her monstrous and hellish state. To avenge her shame, she dispatched the lightning god Yakusa no ikazuchi no kami (Raijin) and the horrible hag Yomotsu-shikome to chase after him. Izanagi escaped, but the goddess declared to kill a thousand of his people every day. Izanagi retorted that a thousand and five hundred will be born every day.
Now I’m sure that one could step inside of that jumble of mythological nonsense and apply Jungian theories to that also, but why bother?

As I have stated over and over again (while drawing upon Buddhist mythology), these stories are just the temporary “rafts” that help to carry humans across the waters of earthly life – rafts that will be abandoned upon the shore of death.

And I truly believe that just as we are all presently partaking in a commonly shared context of existence within this closed bubble of reality that we call a universe,...

...likewise, we will all (and that includes Hitler) partake in a commonly shared context of existence at the moment of physical death.

And the bottom line is that no matter what happens to us following the event of physical death...

(whether it be eternal life with an ever-evolving and ever-fruitful purpose -- OR -- eternal oblivion)

...it will be the exact same conditions for all of us, and it will not require any form of “salvation” from what we did or did not do within the confusing din and atmosphere of life on earth.
_______
I can respect your beliefs but can you respect mine? I know why secularists must hate them since to be open to what the conscious messengers from the past introduced into the world concerning human "being" threatens the dominance of secularism and its earthly gods and goddesses.

What you suggest doesn't answer my questions as far as the meaning and purpose of the universe and man within it. it doesn't offer a definition of Man and the cause of our hypocrisy. It doesn't discriminate between the inner and outer man.

How does Socrates' description of the inner man and outer man relate to the being of Hitler? Can you supply a logical answer as to why human being is simultaneously capable of both the greatest atrocities and the greatest compassion? How can such a being be capable of the conscious destiny you describe?

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Re: Will Adolf Hitler Be Saved (End Up in Heaven)?

Post by Dalek Prime » Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:06 pm

Greta wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:44 pm
Dubious, thanks for your thoughts. I guess optimists who don't believe in an afterlife might look for a euphemistic description of oblivion, and "eternal rest and peace" may appeal to them, as might the "deep unconscious sleep" analogy. Some folks feel "saved" by a good night's sleep. Many other folks, however, dread the thought of oblivion, and hence the hope for a soul as an eternal personal identity.
Funny thing, isn't it? Every night we crave temporary oblivion but dread permanent oblivion.
I'm just the opposite. To paraphrase Slovaj Zizek, my worst fear is to die, only to wake again.
Last edited by Dalek Prime on Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Greta
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Re: Will Adolf Hitler Be Saved (End Up in Heaven)?

Post by Greta » Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:06 pm

Dalek Prime wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:47 pm
Greta wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 4:46 am
Dalek Prime wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:58 pm
On a serious note, can you imagine what it would be like to be considered the personification of evil?
The moral equivalent of being sat in the corner with a Dunce cap. It's a dirty job but ...
But what? Don't leave me in suspense, Greta. (He says as he dons his pointy hat.)
That's harsh, D. Is it not bad enough that I fall into vapid cliché without having to spell it out in full? :D

Someone has to be the most evil person ever or, more realistically, perceived as such.

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Re: Will Adolf Hitler Be Saved (End Up in Heaven)?

Post by Dalek Prime » Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:09 pm

Greta wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:06 pm
Dalek Prime wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:47 pm
Greta wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 4:46 am
The moral equivalent of being sat in the corner with a Dunce cap. It's a dirty job but ...
But what? Don't leave me in suspense, Greta. (He says as he dons his pointy hat.)
That's harsh, D. Is it not bad enough that I fall into vapid cliché without having to spell it out in full? :D

Someone has to be the most evil person ever or, more realistically, perceived as such.
Lol! I do the same Greta. I always end a familiar saying half way through.

Dubious
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Re: Will Adolf Hitler Be Saved (End Up in Heaven)?

Post by Dubious » Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:13 pm

No such thing as the most evil person ever.

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Greta
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Re: Will Adolf Hitler Be Saved (End Up in Heaven)?

Post by Greta » Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:27 pm

Dalek Prime wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:06 pm
Greta wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:44 pm
Funny thing, isn't it? Every night we crave temporary oblivion but dread permanent oblivion.
I'm just the opposite. To paraphrase Slovaj Zizek, my worst fear is to die, only to wake again.
Ahhhrr (that is the sound made in my head in response to this post), you are full of bull waste products. If you really feared waking up you'd do something about it - but you secretly enjoy life a lot more than you let on, don't you? :lol:

You are just expressing disappointment that life is not all it was cracked up to be, nor what you think it should be. Every promising movement - the counter culture, the Arab spring - ends up squashed with ever tighter controls. And, of course, all of our efforts in life end in death.

However, this isn't the fault of human nature but the fact that we underestimate the damaging effect of overpopulation on our psyches. For no good reason we assume the issue is purely physical, but in truth most people at some level are frustrated because, no matter what they try to do, someone else is in the way making it harder for them. Choices are reducing.

Societies are akin to fluids that are now dense enough to start solidifying, with each "atom" of society bound in ever tighter lockstep, with ever less space between them. Freedom is being curtailed, not so much by "them" - the powers that be - but by THEM, as in all those other innocent bodies out there trying to make a nice life for themselves within the bounds of their tightening straitjackets.

It's said that, at western rates of consumption, the Earth has a carrying capacity of about 1.5 billion. Once this current seven billion plus people have developed to the point where nature can no longer sustain them at all, then life will have to be propped by technology, cleaning water, converting inedible organics into food and "sustainable" energy.

However, most people won't have access to that technology and at that point a lot of people won't be waking up again, although those currently driving anti-nature policies will be amongst the most protected. Even then they won't admit being wrong about anything :lol:

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Re: Will Adolf Hitler Be Saved (End Up in Heaven)?

Post by Dalek Prime » Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:28 pm

Dubious wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:13 pm
No such thing as the most evil person ever.
Safe to say there's probably a contest for runners-up.

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Re: Will Adolf Hitler Be Saved (End Up in Heaven)?

Post by Dalek Prime » Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:33 pm

I'm tired of it all, Greta. Have been for some time. Sure, I like some things, but I'll just slip away anyway. And it's not a sad thing. We all will in time. That knowledge keeps me fairly good humoured and grounded. I'm not going to throw it away, but when it's up, I won't even know it.

To paraphrase someone (Clark? Asimov?) I can't recall who, it's not death I fear, it's the dying.

And I truly am sorry for giving you that 'Ahhhrr' moment. Really don't mean to.
Last edited by Dalek Prime on Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:37 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Will Adolf Hitler Be Saved (End Up in Heaven)?

Post by vegetariantaxidermy » Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:35 pm

Dubious wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:13 pm
No such thing as the most evil person ever.
Exactly. Humans are a lot more complex (or commonplace) than simply 'evil' or 'good'. There are any number of people around who live ordinary lives who would be just as bad, given enough power.

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Re: Will Adolf Hitler Be Saved (End Up in Heaven)?

Post by Dalek Prime » Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:39 pm

vegetariantaxidermy wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:35 pm
Dubious wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:13 pm
No such thing as the most evil person ever.
Exactly. Humans are a lot more complex (or commonplace) than simply 'evil' or 'good'. There are any number of people around who live ordinary lives who would be just as bad, given enough power.
That's the thing I've wondered before, veg. If a person is 'evil', but doesn't act on it, are they still 'evil'? There is a psychiatrist who discovered that his brain scan matches that of a psychopath. But he knows this, and doesn't act on it.

But yes, we all have potential in either direction on a scale.

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Greta
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Re: Will Adolf Hitler Be Saved (End Up in Heaven)?

Post by Greta » Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:49 pm

Yes, too many candidates from which to choose. We don't need a dunce corner but a dunce acreage!

I think many share your view, D. We know what not being conscious is because we do it nightly, with opinions of it ranging from meh to awesome.

We also know what people look and sound like when doing that horrific final dance, attended by well-meaning torturers intent on maintaining the agony in their victims for the sake of a deity whose existence is at least highly speculative. I think most of us hope that our end is quick and merciful.

Hitler's final death throes were probably fast since he apparently had taken poison (or found work as an Elvis impersonator in South America) but he started the process of serious wastage long before death. Wracked by the stress of being such an hugely maladjusted bastard and inflicting his bastardry on all around him, he took ever more prescription drugs to the point where he was just a shell of the jerk he used to be towards the end.

Amazing that people still admire him, as though it's clever or visionary to announce that your own mob is better than everyone else.

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