Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

What did you say? And what did you mean by it?

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creativesoul
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Joined: Sat May 21, 2011 4:16 am

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul » Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:08 pm

TimeSeeker wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:01 pm
creativesoul wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:47 pm
TimeSeeker wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:39 pm

The process of bracketing a.k.a phenomenological reduction.
I asked you to explain it for me.
I can't do that in general. i can only do it in context of problem solving.
Perhaps it is because you're nothing more than a quite clever program yourself, one that is based upon an inadequate criterion for meaning.

creativesoul
Posts: 771
Joined: Sat May 21, 2011 4:16 am

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul » Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:10 pm

TimeSeeker wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:06 pm
creativesoul wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:58 pm
You really mean "falsify" do you not?

Let me save you the trouble.

You cannot falsify a true claim.
I said "falsify".

That would only be the case if your conception of "truth" is absolute.

Absolute truth is a rather foreign notion to scientists. Given that information discovered in the future can always prove a previous "true" claim to be erroneous.
You said "test/falsify" and you offered a link to verification... there is a significant difference between what it takes to verify a claim and what it takes to falsify a claim. True claims can be verified but not falsified.

TimeSeeker
Posts: 2866
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:42 am

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by TimeSeeker » Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:11 pm

creativesoul wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:08 pm
I can't do that in general. i can only do it in context of problem solving.
Perhaps it is because you're nothing more than a quite clever program yourself, one that is based upon an inadequate criterion for meaning.
[/quote]
Entirely possible. I don't claim to understand the inner of my brain/mind.

creativesoul
Posts: 771
Joined: Sat May 21, 2011 4:16 am

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul » Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:13 pm

TimeSeeker wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:06 pm
creativesoul wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:58 pm
You really mean "falsify" do you not?

Let me save you the trouble.

You cannot falsify a true claim.
I said "falsify".

That would only be the case if your conception of "truth" is absolute.

Absolute truth is a rather foreign notion to scientists. Given that information discovered in the future can always prove a previous "true" claim to be erroneous.
There is no need to use the term "absolute" here. New information discovered in the future cannot prove a true claim to be erroneous. If it is later discovered to be false, then it was never true to begin with.

TimeSeeker
Posts: 2866
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:42 am

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by TimeSeeker » Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:15 pm

creativesoul wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:10 pm
You said "test/falsify" and you offered a link to verification... there is a significant difference between what it takes to verify a claim and what it takes to falsify a claim. True claims can be verified but not falsified.
Any verification is only as good as the test contrived therefore verification is also probabilistic in nature.

Have you done any unit testing in your experience in writing software? There are no perfect tests.
And so it's entirely possible that we are both fooled by your claim.

If I were to verify your claim 100000 times would I always get the same result or would it be a statistical distribution?

creativesoul
Posts: 771
Joined: Sat May 21, 2011 4:16 am

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul » Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:15 pm

TimeSeeker wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:11 pm
creativesoul wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:08 pm
TimeSeeker wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:11 pm
I can't do that in general. i can only do it in context of problem solving.
Perhaps it is because you're nothing more than a quite clever program yourself, one that is based upon an inadequate criterion for meaning.
Entirely possible. I don't claim to understand the inner of my brain/mind.
And yet you've offered an explanation of that on several occasions...

TimeSeeker
Posts: 2866
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:42 am

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by TimeSeeker » Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:16 pm

creativesoul wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:13 pm
There is no need to use the term "absolute" here. New information discovered in the future cannot prove a true claim to be erroneous. If it is later discovered to be false, then it was never true to begin with.
So by your definition truth is unfalsifiable.

That's called a tautology. If I can't use it to calibrate my expectations - it's useless to me.
Last edited by TimeSeeker on Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:20 pm, edited 2 times in total.

TimeSeeker
Posts: 2866
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:42 am

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by TimeSeeker » Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:17 pm

creativesoul wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:15 pm
TimeSeeker wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:11 pm
creativesoul wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:08 pm


Perhaps it is because you're nothing more than a quite clever program yourself, one that is based upon an inadequate criterion for meaning.
Entirely possible. I don't claim to understand the inner of my brain/mind.
And yet you've offered an explanation of that on several occasions...
One that you appease you? Probably not. You seem too inflexible a thinker to take it at face value.

People who ask me merely want to learn my methods. Because they deem what I do effective.

Do you?

creativesoul
Posts: 771
Joined: Sat May 21, 2011 4:16 am

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul » Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:34 pm

TimeSeeker wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:15 pm
creativesoul wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:10 pm
You said "test/falsify" and you offered a link to verification... there is a significant difference between what it takes to verify a claim and what it takes to falsify a claim. True claims can be verified but not falsified.
Any verification is only as good as the test contrived therefore verification is also probabilistic in nature.
Verification requires knowing what it would take for the claim to be true(knowing what the claim means). Whether or not the verification method is probabilistic 'in nature' - whatever that is supposed to mean - is determined solely by virtue of verification method itself. Not all claims have verification methods which are probabilistic.

creativesoul
Posts: 771
Joined: Sat May 21, 2011 4:16 am

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul » Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:36 pm

TimeSeeker wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:16 pm
creativesoul wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:13 pm
There is no need to use the term "absolute" here. New information discovered in the future cannot prove a true claim to be erroneous. If it is later discovered to be false, then it was never true to begin with.
So by your definition truth is unfalsifiable.

That's called a tautology. If I can't use it to calibrate my expectations - it's useless to me.
You're conflating a true claim with truth. Truth is correspondence. Correspondence is what makes a claim true. A lack of correspondence is what makes a claim false.

creativesoul
Posts: 771
Joined: Sat May 21, 2011 4:16 am

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul » Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:40 pm

TimeSeeker wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:17 pm
creativesoul wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:15 pm
TimeSeeker wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:11 pm

Entirely possible. I don't claim to understand the inner of my brain/mind.
And yet you've offered an explanation of that on several occasions...
One that you appease you? Probably not. You seem too inflexible a thinker to take it at face value.

People who ask me merely want to learn my methods. Because they deem what I do effective.

Do you?
I'm not sure what you do. So, I've no idea of whether or not it is effective and/or what would have to be the case in order for it to be effective.

You're certainly resourceful.

creativesoul
Posts: 771
Joined: Sat May 21, 2011 4:16 am

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul » Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:46 pm

TimeSeeker wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:16 pm
creativesoul wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:13 pm
There is no need to use the term "absolute" here. New information discovered in the future cannot prove a true claim to be erroneous. If it is later discovered to be false, then it was never true to begin with.
So by your definition truth is unfalsifiable.

That's called a tautology. If I can't use it to calibrate my expectations - it's useless to me.
Aside from the fact that you've conflated true claims with what make them so, and then mistakenly attributed meaning to what I've written, which is proven by your calling it "a tautology"...

You can use false claims to calibrate your expectations. You can use true claims to calibrate your expectations.

TimeSeeker
Posts: 2866
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:42 am

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by TimeSeeker » Mon Nov 19, 2018 8:06 am

creativesoul wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:46 pm
Aside from the fact that you've conflated true claims with what make them so, and then mistakenly attributed meaning to what I've written, which is proven by your calling it "a tautology"...

You can use false claims to calibrate your expectations. You can use true claims to calibrate your expectations.
Yes, but what mechanism would I use to discern true from false claims?

You could have simply said: You could use claims to calibrate you expectations.

And then the discussion shifts towards "do you trust the source of the claim"

Beyond relying on heuristics to detect "falsity" (inconsistencies, contradictions, etc.) you have no way of knowing.

Q.E.D There are two dogs in my garden. True or false?

TimeSeeker
Posts: 2866
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:42 am

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by TimeSeeker » Mon Nov 19, 2018 8:13 am

creativesoul wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:34 pm
Verification requires knowing what it would take for the claim to be true(knowing what the claim means).
And in the case where I don't know what the claim means because I don't understand your taxonomy the experiment provides me with the meaning.

Because testing/falsification criteria do exactly that - they draw distinctions. They classify things into two boxes.
The juxtaposition of a successful vs unsuccessful test is what allows me to infer where line is.

By doing the experiment in my head. I experience your "line".

TimeSeeker
Posts: 2866
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:42 am

Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by TimeSeeker » Mon Nov 19, 2018 8:24 am

creativesoul wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:36 pm
You're conflating a true claim with truth. Truth is correspondence. Correspondence is what makes a claim true. A lack of correspondence is what makes a claim false.
What is the mechanism for verifying correspondence? It seems to me that in the absence of such mechanism you can't assert the truth of a true claim?

And if you do have a mechanism to verify correspondence then by empiricism (direct experience) you have already attained the information the claim provided you with anyway.

Back to the dog example: There are two dogs in my garden. True or false?

Suppose you came over to visit and you verified that the claim is true.

But if you cared whether there are two dogs in my garden in the first place - you would've come and inspect my garden ANYWAY.

So. What was the purpose of me uttering the phrase "There are two dogs in my garden"?

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