Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

What did you say? And what did you mean by it?

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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by -1- » Fri Nov 16, 2018 2:09 pm

Atla wrote:
Fri Nov 16, 2018 7:35 am
creativesoul wrote:
Fri Nov 16, 2018 3:10 am
One may draw that conclusion. However, let me ask you a question...

Do you think/believe that just because someone cannot grasp the concept of truth/falsehood that they also do not use the concept everyday?
They may use the words "true"/"false", but they don't actually know what these mean. They usually just assume that these are tools, expressions used for imposing your will on others / for manipulation, nothing more. And they assume that everyone else uses them the same way too.
That's actually a different concept... they use a false concept for Truth/Falsehood. But Creativesoul asked if these people who do not grasp the concept of truth/falsehood, if they nevertheless use the concept, every day, correctly, despite their inability to understand its meaning?

For instance, Miki does not understand what truth is. But Miki will say to his teacher, "I left my pen at home." He is uttering a true statement; he is relying on the teacher's understanding that Miki himself is telling the truth. So in fact though Miki has no clue what truth is, in and by itself, he uses the concept very fluidly.

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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by Atla » Fri Nov 16, 2018 6:00 pm

-1- wrote:
Fri Nov 16, 2018 2:09 pm
Atla wrote:
Fri Nov 16, 2018 7:35 am
creativesoul wrote:
Fri Nov 16, 2018 3:10 am
One may draw that conclusion. However, let me ask you a question...

Do you think/believe that just because someone cannot grasp the concept of truth/falsehood that they also do not use the concept everyday?
They may use the words "true"/"false", but they don't actually know what these mean. They usually just assume that these are tools, expressions used for imposing your will on others / for manipulation, nothing more. And they assume that everyone else uses them the same way too.
That's actually a different concept... they use a false concept for Truth/Falsehood. But Creativesoul asked if these people who do not grasp the concept of truth/falsehood, if they nevertheless use the concept, every day, correctly, despite their inability to understand its meaning?

For instance, Miki does not understand what truth is. But Miki will say to his teacher, "I left my pen at home." He is uttering a true statement; he is relying on the teacher's understanding that Miki himself is telling the truth. So in fact though Miki has no clue what truth is, in and by itself, he uses the concept very fluidly.
Umm no, how could Miki rely on the teacher's understanding about something that Miki doesn't even know exists and couldn't comprehend, because his brain/mind isn't processing it? He will know from past experience that saying something like "I left my pen at home." will probably work, that's all.

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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by TimeSeeker » Fri Nov 16, 2018 6:49 pm

-1- wrote:
Fri Nov 16, 2018 2:09 pm
For instance, Miki does not understand what truth is. But Miki will say to his teacher, "I left my pen at home." He is uttering a true statement; he is relying on the teacher's understanding that Miki himself is telling the truth. So in fact though Miki has no clue what truth is, in and by itself, he uses the concept very fluidly.
This hypothetical is so far removed from reality I don't even know where to begin untangling it.

In order for you to utter the claims you have uttered you have necessarily anointed yourself (the narrator) with superpowers. Mind-reading/omniscience and omnipresence at the very least. If you are asserting that Miki is "telling the truth" then you necessarily know that either Miki's pen is indeed at his house OR you have access to Miki's thoughts and you know he's lying. Naturally you can - because Miki is a figment of your imagination.

Once you land back on Earth from your 3rd person narrator/observer perspective you will find yourself unable to read minds, or visit people's houses in an instant and so you are stuck with the rest of us mere mortals where you have to make a judgment call on Miki's statement based on incomplete information.

Miki could have lost his pen, or Miki might simply be trying to get out of doing class work. Unless you can read Miki's mind and visit his house - you are shit out of luck on asserting Miki's honesty OR dishonesty.

And because you are working with incomplete information logical deduction is NOT a privilege you get to enjoy. The best you can hope for is abduction ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abductive_reasoning ) - plausible reasoning.

And so you are likely to land on a plausible hypothesis based on YOUR prior knowledge of Miki's track record, absenteeism, personality, trustworthiness and general body language while Miki is informing you that he has no pen because <insert reason here>.

Whatever conclusion you reach about Miki's sincerity OR dishonesty - you will have NO way to validate that you are in fact, correct. So you could have been tricked by a liar, OR you could have been to harsh on a kid who made an honest mistake.

Either way - you are going to go with your gut. Truth? Lol.

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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by -1- » Sat Nov 17, 2018 1:58 am

Atla wrote:
Fri Nov 16, 2018 6:00 pm
-1- wrote:
Fri Nov 16, 2018 2:09 pm
For instance, Miki does not understand what truth is. But Miki will say to his teacher, "I left my pen at home." He is uttering a true statement; he is relying on the teacher's understanding that Miki himself is telling the truth. So in fact though Miki has no clue what truth is, in and by itself, he uses the concept very fluidly.
Umm no, how could Miki rely on the teacher's understanding about something that Miki doesn't even know exists and couldn't comprehend, because his brain/mind isn't processing it? He will know from past experience that saying something like "I left my pen at home." will probably work, that's all.
Well, in the example Miki does, doesn't he. He does not have to know what truth is in order to employ it. You are arguing his mind is too feeble, so he can't use the concept. Sure he can, without realizing it.

An analogy to support this reasoning is breathing the air. Before the middle ages, and for some time during then too, people did not know that air existed. They breahted the air, they metabolized the oxygen in it, but they had no clue they were doing it.

Same with Miki. He does not know what truth is; but he can employ its concept without any difficulty.

NOTA BENE: I did not write in the example, "Miki does not know what the truth is". I wrote, "Miki does not know what truth is."

Much like we know what the time is, but we don't know what time is.

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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by Atla » Sat Nov 17, 2018 7:46 am

-1- wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 1:58 am
Well, in the example Miki does, doesn't he. He does not have to know what truth is in order to employ it. You are arguing his mind is too feeble, so he can't use the concept. Sure he can, without realizing it.
My point is: some people really can't process truth. They can't process it without realizing it either. It's not about being feeble, it's probably about having the anterior parts of the neocortex function abnormally for various reasons.

Most people who process truth, have no idea that some people don't, and what that would be like.
Most or all people who don't process truth, have no idea that most people do, and what that would be like.

It's just how the world works. One good example of this is Trump. So many people are convinced that Trump is a deliberate pathological liar, but that's not quite correct. Trump has NO concept of truth and doesn't really understand what lies and truths are.

Though I'm probably using "concept" in a more general sense than how it's normally used. The normal use of the word presupposes that all humans have a fairly standard psychology.

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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul » Sat Nov 17, 2018 8:59 am

Atla wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 7:46 am
My point is: some people really can't process truth. They can't process it without realizing it either. It's not about being feeble, it's probably about having the anterior parts of the neocortex function abnormally for various reasons.
If that is the case, then it must also be the case that either not all thought/belief is existentially dependent upon processing truth, or no creature without the anterior parts of the neocortex thinks and/or believes anything at all.


Atla wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 7:46 am
Most people who process truth, have no idea that some people don't, and what that would be like. Most or all people who don't process truth, have no idea that most people do, and what that would be like.
In order to know that most people who process truth have something in common - such as having no idea that some people don't - one must first know all people who process truth. You don't.

Gratuitous assertions aren't acceptable.


Atla wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 7:46 am
It's just how the world works. One good example of this is Trump. So many people are convinced that Trump is a deliberate pathological liar, but that's not quite correct. Trump has NO concept of truth and doesn't really understand what lies and truths are.
Bullshit. He vehemently argues for his own innocence on whatever he is charged with. People who have no concept of truth do not do that. People who do not process truth do not know when and how to use words to affect change. People who do not understand truth/falsity do not call things "fake".

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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul » Sat Nov 17, 2018 9:06 am

Atla wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 7:46 am
Trump has NO concept of truth and doesn't really understand what lies and truths are.
I would say the same about yourself based upon how you used the terms "truth" and "truths". Adding an "s" to truth indicates a plurality. What exactly do you think/believe that truth is such that it could be more than one?

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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul » Sat Nov 17, 2018 9:10 am

I'm left wondering exactly what counts as 'processing truth'? What is the criterion, which when met by some candidate or other, counts as a case of processing truth?

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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul » Sat Nov 17, 2018 9:20 am

Atla wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 7:46 am
-1- wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 1:58 am
Well, in the example Miki does, doesn't he. He does not have to know what truth is in order to employ it. You are arguing his mind is too feeble, so he can't use the concept. Sure he can, without realizing it.
My point is: some people really can't process truth. They can't process it without realizing it either. It's not about being feeble, it's probably about having the anterior parts of the neocortex function abnormally for various reasons.

Most people who process truth, have no idea that some people don't, and what that would be like.
Most or all people who don't process truth, have no idea that most people do, and what that would be like.

It's just how the world works. One good example of this is Trump. So many people are convinced that Trump is a deliberate pathological liar, but that's not quite correct. Trump has NO concept of truth and doesn't really understand what lies and truths are.

Though I'm probably using "concept" in a more general sense than how it's normally used. The normal use of the word presupposes that all humans have a fairly standard psychology.
Language use doesn't require processing truth. <------------That is another dubious presupposition at work.

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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by TimeSeeker » Sat Nov 17, 2018 9:30 am

creativesoul wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 9:10 am
I'm left wondering exactly what counts as 'processing truth'? What is the criterion, which when met by some candidate or other, counts as a case of processing truth?
Epistemology's dirty little secrets are the problems of justification and criterion. They are unsolved.

Justification fails to infinite regress.
Criterion fails to is-ought gap.

And so any claims of knowledge (know-that) or competence (know-how) can only be made in a framework that has SOME pre-suppositions. Some yardstick against one can say "this is knowledge" vs "this is not knowledge".

And so ANY consensus between any two people on ANYTHING under dispute rests on having agreed on at least one thing. There are no exceptions. These limits stem directly from the laws of physics and causality. But the TL;DR is here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consensus ... r_science)

And so you are right to be doubtful about "processing truth". We have criteria for processing (Turing completeness) - not criteria for 'truth'.

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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by Atla » Sat Nov 17, 2018 3:59 pm

creativesoul wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 8:59 am
If that is the case, then it must also be the case that either not all thought/belief is existentially dependent upon processing truth
Yes, that's what I've been saying all along (at least based on how I interpret these word). Although I'm not quite sure what you mean by existentially dependent.
or no creature without the anterior parts of the neocortex thinks and/or believes anything at all.
?
No, I can only even make some sense of this if we use some really twisted definition of thinking / belief.
In order to know that most people who process truth have something in common - such as having no idea that some people don't - one must first know all people who process truth. You don't.

Gratuitous assertions aren't acceptable.
How do you think the entire field of psychology works for example, do they examine EVERY SINGLE PERSON on the planet first, or do they make observations based on some sample size?
Bullshit. He vehemently argues for his own innocence on whatever he is charged with. People who have no concept of truth do not do that.
He vehemently argues for his own innocence BECAUSE he thinks he is innocent. He doesn't actually understand truth and lies, so when people call him a liar, he really doesn't know what they are talking about. All he sees is that these people are trying to do him harm, even though in his mind he IS innocent.
People who do not process truth do not know when and how to use words to affect change.
Quite the opposite. They usually know better how to use words to affect change, than most people. Many of them are adept at using them as tools, weapons etc. And they tend to assume that everyone else does this too, they think most people simply suck at it.
People who do not understand truth/falsity do not call things "fake".
Of course they do. It's an excellent tool/weapon.

Ignorance is bliss. Ok I'm done here.

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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul » Sat Nov 17, 2018 8:31 pm

Atla wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 7:46 am

My point is: some people really can't process truth. They can't process it without realizing it either. It's not about being feeble, it's probably about having the anterior parts of the neocortex function abnormally for various reasons.
Atla wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 3:59 pm
creativesoul wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 8:59 am
If that is the case, then it must also be the case that... ...not all thought/belief is existentially dependent upon processing truth...
Yes, that's what I've been saying all along (at least based on how I interpret these word). Although I'm not quite sure what you mean by existentially dependent.
What counts as processing truth, as compared/contrasted to not processing truth? What does the former include that the latter does not such that some people cannot do the former even without realizing it?

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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul » Sat Nov 17, 2018 8:40 pm

TimeSeeker wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 9:30 am
creativesoul wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 9:10 am
I'm left wondering exactly what counts as 'processing truth'? What is the criterion, which when met by some candidate or other, counts as a case of processing truth?
Epistemology's dirty little secrets are the problems of justification and criterion. They are unsolved.

Justification fails to infinite regress.
Criterion fails to is-ought gap.
Justification fails to infinite regress only if one conflates justification(the process of putting forth the grounds of one's belief) with being well-grounded. Hume's guillotine is irrelevant to the way things are. Criterion is about the way things are.

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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul » Sat Nov 17, 2018 8:46 pm

Atla wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 3:59 pm

How do you think the entire field of psychology works for example, do they examine EVERY SINGLE PERSON on the planet first, or do they make observations based on some sample size?
Gross overgeneralization is a fallacy of thought. It underlies all stereotype. It underlies racism. It underlies many cases of misinterpretation as well. I was simply pointing out that you made an unjustifiable claim. Pointing out that someone else does it too doesn't help your case.

He vehemently argues for his own innocence BECAUSE he thinks he is innocent. He doesn't actually understand truth and lies, so when people call him a liar, he really doesn't know what they are talking about. All he sees is that these people are trying to do him harm, even though in his mind he IS innocent.
Bullshit. He thinks he's innocent(if he does) because he thinks that he's been accused of doing things that he didn't do. One cannot think that they did not do what others have said that they did without presupposing truth.

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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul » Sat Nov 17, 2018 8:51 pm

"The Trump campaign colluded with Russia."

The above statement is one that has been uttered on many an occasion by Trump's opposition. Trump himself has said that it is not true. Everyone knows what would make it true. It would be true if the Trump campaign colluded with Russia. Trump is saying that that did not happen.

That is a prima facie example of the fact of Trump's having and using a concept of truth/falsehood.

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