Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

What did you say? And what did you mean by it?

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TimeSeeker
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by TimeSeeker » Sat Nov 03, 2018 8:37 pm

creativesoul wrote:
Sat Nov 03, 2018 7:59 pm
I've asked a number of questions that you've neglected to answer directly.
Because you are asking misleading questions in your own mental muddle. You are even using the word "meaning" in two different senses! You mean different things when you use the word "meaning"!

How inconsistent is that?!? :)

creativesoul
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul » Sat Nov 03, 2018 8:43 pm

Meh...

Evidently you've run out of bullshit to say...

Adios!

TimeSeeker
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by TimeSeeker » Sat Nov 03, 2018 8:48 pm

creativesoul wrote:
Sat Nov 03, 2018 8:43 pm
Meh...

Evidently you've run out of bullshit to say...

Adios!
Look in the mirror. All the things you've said during this interaction cannot possibly be true at the same time and from the same perspective:
1. All thought/belief is meaningful to the thinking/believing creature.
2. All language is meaningful.
3. If "grobmunf" is a part of a correlation you've drawn between it and something else, then it is meaningful
4. If "grobmunf" is not part of a plurality of thinking/believing creatures' correlation(s), then it is not language.

Grobmunf is a word that I have invented to express a thought. By rule #1 it is meaningful.
Nobody else understands what 'grobmunf' means so by rule #4 it is not language.

So 'grobmunf' is meaningful but it is not language?

The thread is called "Is It Possible To Think Without Language?" The answer is "Yes".

Q.E.D
Last edited by TimeSeeker on Sat Nov 03, 2018 8:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

creativesoul
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul » Sat Nov 03, 2018 8:52 pm

Here's an account of thought that cannot be expressed in language...

A language-less creature cannot express it's thought/belief in language. That creature's thought/belief can be properly taken into account. Taking account of a language-less creature's thought/belief requires language. What's being taken into account does not require being taking it into account. Our knowledge of it does.

When we are reporting upon non-linguistic thought, we are not expressing it... we're expressing our own thought/belief about it. To say otherwise would be to conflate our report with what we're reporting upon.

TimeSeeker
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by TimeSeeker » Sat Nov 03, 2018 8:54 pm

creativesoul wrote:
Sat Nov 03, 2018 8:52 pm
Here's an account of thought that cannot be expressed in language...

A language-less creature cannot express it's thought/belief in language. That creature's thought/belief can be properly taken into account. Taking account of a language-less creature's thought/belief requires language. What's being taken into account does not require being taking it into account. Our knowledge of it does.

When we are reporting upon non-linguistic thought, we are not expressing it... we're expressing our own thought/belief about it. To say otherwise would be to conflate our report with what we're reporting upon.
You just expressed it. In language.

Also. Can can you report on/about anything bout a "language-less creature"? What do you know about language-less expression?

creativesoul
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul » Sat Nov 03, 2018 9:00 pm

On my view meaning is prior to language. I
TimeSeeker wrote:
Sat Nov 03, 2018 8:48 pm
creativesoul wrote:
Sat Nov 03, 2018 8:43 pm
Meh...

Evidently you've run out of bullshit to say...

Adios!
Look in the mirror. All the things you've said during this interaction cannot possibly be true at the same time and from the same perspective:
1. All thought/belief is meaningful to the thinking/believing creature.
2. All language is meaningful.
3. If "grobmunf" is a part of a correlation you've drawn between it and something else, then it is meaningful
4. If "grobmunf" is not part of a plurality of thinking/believing creatures' correlation(s), then it is not language.

Grobmunf is a word that I have invented to express a thought. By rule #1 it is meaningful.
Nobody else understands what 'grobmunf' means so by rule #4 it is not language.

So 'grobmunf' is meaningful but it is not language?
Yes, that's what follows from what I've said. There's no self-contradiction in anything I've written. Some meaning is prior to language.

TimeSeeker
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by TimeSeeker » Sat Nov 03, 2018 9:00 pm

creativesoul wrote:
Sat Nov 03, 2018 9:00 pm
Yes, that's what follows from what I've said. There's no self-contradiction in anything I've written. Some meaning is prior to language.
Some or all?

If some. Can you give me an example of meaning that is a posteriori language?

creativesoul
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul » Sat Nov 03, 2018 9:02 pm

TimeSeeker wrote:
Sat Nov 03, 2018 8:54 pm
creativesoul wrote:
Sat Nov 03, 2018 8:52 pm
Here's an account of thought that cannot be expressed in language...

A language-less creature cannot express it's thought/belief in language. That creature's thought/belief can be properly taken into account. Taking account of a language-less creature's thought/belief requires language. What's being taken into account does not require being taking it into account. Our knowledge of it does.

When we are reporting upon non-linguistic thought, we are not expressing it... we're expressing our own thought/belief about it. To say otherwise would be to conflate our report with what we're reporting upon.
You just expressed it. In language.
I expressed my own thought/belief. I did not - cannot - express my drake's thought/belief. I can offer an account of it. Do you not know the difference?

:roll:

TimeSeeker
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by TimeSeeker » Sat Nov 03, 2018 9:04 pm

creativesoul wrote:
Sat Nov 03, 2018 9:02 pm
I expressed my own thought/belief. I did not - cannot - express my drake's thought/belief. I can offer an account of it. Do you not know the difference?

:roll:
Naturally! Which is me affirming it when I said "You take the 1st person perspective". I do too.

But when you (seemingly) contradict yourself I have to give you the benefit of the doubt. This is what I am doing by saying "These things cannot be true from the same perspective".

I have to keep two hypothesis alive in my mind else I have already reached a conclusion.

The two hypotheses are:

* Your view is inconsistent
* I am misunderstanding you

Principle of charity and all...

creativesoul
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul » Sat Nov 03, 2018 9:08 pm

TimeSeeker wrote:
Sat Nov 03, 2018 9:00 pm
creativesoul wrote:
Sat Nov 03, 2018 9:00 pm
Yes, that's what follows from what I've said. There's no self-contradiction in anything I've written. Some meaning is prior to language.
Some or all?

If some. Can you give me an example of meaning that is a posteriori language?
Some. Yes, I can.

TimeSeeker
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by TimeSeeker » Sat Nov 03, 2018 9:08 pm

creativesoul wrote:
Sat Nov 03, 2018 9:08 pm
Some. Yes, I can.
Please do - so I can calibrate my understanding to your use of the word.

TimeSeeker
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by TimeSeeker » Sat Nov 03, 2018 9:18 pm

My use of the word 'expression' hinges on shared meaning (which is the same as your use of the word 'language'). Or rather - the process by which individual meaning BECOMES shared meaning e.g how ideas become language.

If I express myself but I am the only one who grasps what it means. It's insufficient.

Therefore 'expression' is isomorphic to 'BECOMING language'. For the word 'grobmunf' to BECOME language. I have to TEACH you my meaning.

And once I have successfully TAUGHT you my meaning, then you can assert that what I really mean by 'grobmunf' is a penguin.

People have the NEED to label their experiences. If I acquire an experience first hand then I need to give it a name.

Seeing a grobmunf (what everyone else calls a 'penguin') is a totally new experience TO ME. And until I find somebody to TEACH ME that it's not an 'original idea' by pointing me to other knowledge, then I can be none the wiser either....

Similarly. Until somebody first understood what Einstein was all about and when a bunch of physicists understood and DETERMINED that this is ACTUALLY a "new and original idea" - he wasn't expressing himself effectively!

Mathematical isomorphism... "different ideas" can be the same thing in different words.

creativesoul
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul » Sat Nov 03, 2018 9:25 pm

To be clear, I'm not interested in satisfying a Kantian concept. I've already said why I reject that(a priori/a posteriori) as a result of inadequacy and how that's the case. I am more than capable of offering an example of meaning that is existentially dependent upon language.

Whenever a plurality of creatures draws correlations between the same or similar enough things.

creativesoul
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul » Sat Nov 03, 2018 9:28 pm

TimeSeeker wrote:
Sat Nov 03, 2018 9:18 pm
My use of the word 'expression' hinges on shared meaning (which is the same as your use of the word 'language'). Or rather - the process by which individual meaning BECOMES shared meaning e.g how ideas become language.

If I express myself but I am the only one who grasps what it means. It's insufficient.

Therefore 'expression' is isomorphic to 'BECOMING language'. For the word 'grobmunf' to BECOME language. I have to TEACH you my meaning.

And once I have successfully TAUGHT you my meaning, then you can assert that what I really mean by 'grobmunf' is a penguin.

People have the NEED to label their experiences. If I acquire an experience first hand then I need to give it a name.

Seeing a grobmunf (what everyone else calls a 'penguin') is a totally new experience TO ME. And until I find somebody to TEACH ME that it's not an 'original idea' by pointing me to other knowledge, then I can be none the wiser either....

Similarly. Until somebody first understood what Einstein was all about and when a bunch of physicists understood and DETERMINED that this is ACTUALLY a "new and original idea" - he wasn't expressing himself effectively!

Mathematical isomorphism... "different ideas" can be the same thing in different words.
So then you've set out the term "expression" as capable of being sufficient and/or insufficient. On my view, if X is insufficient for Y, then X is not Y. Let X be expression. Let Y be language.
Last edited by creativesoul on Sat Nov 03, 2018 9:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

creativesoul
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Re: Is It Possible To Think Without Language?

Post by creativesoul » Sat Nov 03, 2018 9:30 pm

creativesoul wrote:
Sat Nov 03, 2018 9:25 pm
To be clear, I'm not interested in satisfying a Kantian concept. I've already said why I reject that(a priori/a posteriori) as a result of inadequacy and how that's the case. I am more than capable of offering an example of meaning that is existentially dependent upon language.

Whenever a plurality of creatures draws correlations between the same or similar enough things.
That's not very well put... actually.

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