Where is "here"?

So what's really going on?

Moderators: AMod, iMod

User avatar
SpheresOfBalance
Posts: 5383
Joined: Sat Sep 10, 2011 4:27 pm
Location: On a Star Dust Metamorphosis

Re: Where is "here"?

Post by SpheresOfBalance » Mon Oct 26, 2015 7:18 pm

petm1 wrote:
SpheresOfBalance wrote:
petm1 wrote:How far from here are we?
You mean to say how far from here, are you? And to answer that question I'd first have to know where you are. You cannot possibly ask that question because we are not together, if we were together however, I would answer 'zero.' As we would in fact be zero any measurement from there. OK maybe the distance between us would have to be considered, as 'here' then might be a point equally between us or encompass the entire area we cover. It would all depend upon ones intended resolution.

If you can not see that when you use the word 'here' it is always about the present,
Not at all, I live over here, while you live over there, which has nothing necessarily to do with time at all, it's about geographic location. The next thing you'll try and sell me is that a Lat/Long is a position in time. No it's a geographic location. If you and I were standing in front of a globe of the earth, and I said the epicenter was over 'here' at this Lat/Long and this Elevation, surely it would have absolutely nothing to do with time. Until I said that it had occurred at exactly 2137 Zulu. No, listen up, not 'now,' it was at time 2137 Zulu. Sheesh, some people just never listen! Or have no concept of 'place' and 'time.'

like " "She is there now." marks a present moment even if you do not put the now in the sentence,
Not in the least, as the inclusion of 'both' 'there' and 'now' contextually can only mean that one is speaking of both a geographical location and a time.

"Put the pen here." means now unless you qualify with a different time,
That is certainly not the case, as the employer knows full well that I must first visit the big box lumber supply, to acquire the necessary, tools, hardware and lumber. Here was clearly the geographic location, as later could only be the ambiguous time that I should begin, once I returned. And you can bet that I shall surely take my time at the lumber supply. Lunch, anyone? And I'll sue if he whines, because he left out the time.

then I guess we will just have to leave it here between us.
Not at all, it was never over 'there,' while it was always over 'here.' It's just taking you a very long 'time' to wake up and smell the coffee! ;)

Here we are both on the Earth, but then again here today, gone tomorrow. By the way just try to find your position without using time. If you put that pen here, on my desk, it will happen in time for even my desk is temporal only existing for a short time let alone its "relative" position. Don't be fooled into thinking that relative position is a stand alone concept without time, and here is always a present tense for we still use it to announce our presence, I am Here.
Never is that the case because mass and energy are always conserved, time has nothing to do with it!

petm1
Posts: 80
Joined: Sat Mar 22, 2014 1:13 am

Re: Where is "here"?

Post by petm1 » Tue Oct 27, 2015 5:36 pm

Never is that the case because mass and energy are always conserved, time has nothing to do with it!


Conserved is a verb, past tense, energy is conserved over time. Time is how we count existence, a clock may only count its own existence as a clock, hence we count the existence of both twins as separate in Einstein's famous thought experiment. Time is the largest and the smallest common denominator of reality and is fundamental to everything, Your age, the age of the earth, even the lifetime of a photon is fundamental to describe our universe. Time has everything to do with everything.

Energy twisting and bending while interacting with itself makes its own duration intrinsic, or forms a field of temporal motion, we measure this motion as the outward force of gravity. Even the names given to energy define them; Potential, energy of the future; Kinetic, dynamic energy of the present; and Annihilation, energy of the past, all of them together make up our present. When this motion is intrinsic we name it one, which is the only way we can separate time, where it separates itself. With this in mind, the statement “Two objects cannot occupy the same space at the same time” can be finished with "because all objects are separate parts of the same motion we measure as time".

User avatar
SpheresOfBalance
Posts: 5383
Joined: Sat Sep 10, 2011 4:27 pm
Location: On a Star Dust Metamorphosis

Re: Where is "here"?

Post by SpheresOfBalance » Tue Oct 27, 2015 5:49 pm

petm1 wrote:
Never is that the case because mass and energy are always conserved, time has nothing to do with it!


Conserved is a verb, past tense, energy is conserved over time. Time is how we count existence, a clock may only count its own existence as a clock, hence we count the existence of both twins as separate in Einstein's famous thought experiment. Time is the largest and the smallest common denominator of reality and is fundamental to everything, Your age, the age of the earth, even the lifetime of a photon is fundamental to describe our universe. Time has everything to do with everything.

Energy twisting and bending while interacting with itself makes its own duration intrinsic, or forms a field of temporal motion, we measure this motion as the outward force of gravity. Even the names given to energy define them; Potential, energy of the future; Kinetic, dynamic energy of the present; and Annihilation, energy of the past, all of them together make up our present. When this motion is intrinsic we name it one, which is the only way we can separate time, where it separates itself. With this in mind, the statement “Two objects cannot occupy the same space at the same time” can be finished with "because all objects are separate parts of the same motion we measure as time".
You said:
petm1 wrote:Here we are both on the Earth, but then again here today, gone tomorrow.
To which I said:
petm1 wrote:
Never is that the case because mass and energy are always conserved, time has nothing to do with it!
I was speaking of our constituents, our particles, we shall always be here, in the physicalness of the universe, so your time has no place, it's meaningless, as to here in this physical universe! For eons and eons our mass and energy shall exist, despite your time, which actually only delineates sequence, so we can deal with it.

Here, the physical universe, is an absolute, despite human language or concepts!

raw_thought
Posts: 1636
Joined: Sat Mar 21, 2015 1:16 pm
Location: trapped inside a hominid skull

Re: Where is "here"?

Post by raw_thought » Thu Dec 10, 2015 2:44 am

Skip wrote:The thread that raised this question seems to have gone, but I still can't help wondering.

When somebody says "here" on an internet forum, what do they mean? What do they think of?
When you read the word, what do you think of?
In cyberland, is "here" a location, an IP address, a state of being, an action.... or what?
Well, it aint there. :)
Seriously, I have often wondered where my posts are physically. I find it surreal thinking that our debates are held in the area on the ground in the east corner of some silent room. * I imagine a janitor buffing the floor just inches away from our debates.
* I have no idea if my debate is in the east part of the silent room or west. My point is that there is a particular location and that is surreal. Anyone buffing the silent room has no idea what loud debates are going on just inches away from the mundane mop.
Last edited by raw_thought on Thu Dec 10, 2015 2:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

raw_thought
Posts: 1636
Joined: Sat Mar 21, 2015 1:16 pm
Location: trapped inside a hominid skull

Re: Where is "here"?

Post by raw_thought » Thu Dec 10, 2015 2:47 am

PS;
The silent room is wherever the computer that holds our debates is.

User avatar
Hobbes' Choice
Posts: 8363
Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2013 11:45 am

Re: Where is "here"?

Post by Hobbes' Choice » Thu Dec 10, 2015 11:08 am

raw_thought wrote:PS;
The silent room is wherever the computer that holds our debates is.
There is no single site.
Our threads are held in temporary files, all over the world as they are read, end until each person' computers empty their caches.
The debates are "IN" the internet.

Obvious Leo
Posts: 4007
Joined: Wed May 13, 2015 1:05 am
Location: Australia

Re: Where is "here"?

Post by Obvious Leo » Wed Dec 16, 2015 12:35 am

We tend to intuitively apply a spatial extension to all the phenomena which we observe but the internet is a good example of how spurious and ephemeral such a spatial extension truly is. An internet debate is a purely temporal phenomenon which only has meaning in terms of causes and effects but if we think about this carefully this is also true for the most mundane of our observations. If we watch a bird flying past the window what ontological meaning can we attach to the space between ourselves and the bird? As Heraclitus said "a man cannot step into the same river twice" and this also applies to our observation of the bird. If we shut our eyes for a moment and then re-open them we are not the same man and we are not observing the same bird, which means that the space between man and bird is meaningless. In fact quantum mechanics states exactly this. In the absence of an observer to "collapse the wave function" the spatio-temporal representation of the bird has no meaning.

"Space and time are modes in which we think, not conditions in which we exist".....Albert Einstein.

User avatar
Hobbes' Choice
Posts: 8363
Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2013 11:45 am

Re: Where is "here"?

Post by Hobbes' Choice » Wed Dec 16, 2015 1:27 am

Obvious Leo wrote:We tend to intuitively apply a spatial extension to all the phenomena which we observe but the internet is a good example of how spurious and ephemeral such a spatial extension truly is. An internet debate is a purely temporal phenomenon which only has meaning in terms of causes and effects but if we think about this carefully this is also true for the most mundane of our observations. If we watch a bird flying past the window what ontological meaning can we attach to the space between ourselves and the bird? As Heraclitus said "a man cannot step into the same river twice" and this also applies to our observation of the bird. If we shut our eyes for a moment and then re-open them we are not the same man and we are not observing the same bird, which means that the space between man and bird is meaningless. In fact quantum mechanics states exactly this. In the absence of an observer to "collapse the wave function" the spatio-temporal representation of the bird has no meaning.

"Space and time are modes in which we think, not conditions in which we exist".....Albert Einstein.
Yes and a well designed computer system can be immune to the destruction of separate parts. Our debates can be found "physically" on the hard-drive of a server somewhere in a geographical location, but removing a drive would probably only interrupt the flow of conversation for a short time, whilst back-up systems come into play. Like a hologram holds the entire image from each point on its surface, a good computer system is capable of being divided and loosing nothing.

Obvious Leo
Posts: 4007
Joined: Wed May 13, 2015 1:05 am
Location: Australia

Re: Where is "here"?

Post by Obvious Leo » Wed Dec 16, 2015 3:38 am

However even if all historical record of a debate is destroyed and the content lost forever its status as a temporal event is unaffected.

The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ,
Moves on: nor all thy Piety nor Wit
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line
Nor all thy Tears wash out a Word of it.

From “The Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam”

Also in the Heraclitean world-view every word we read or utter stamps an indelible mark on us and on those who engage with these words. We are only definable in the language of the changes which occur within us and although such changes may be finely nuanced they are nevertheless cumulative and irreversible.

User avatar
Hobbes' Choice
Posts: 8363
Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2013 11:45 am

Re: Where is "here"?

Post by Hobbes' Choice » Wed Dec 16, 2015 11:20 am

Obvious Leo wrote:However even if all historical record of a debate is destroyed and the content lost forever its status as a temporal event is unaffected.

The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ,
Moves on: nor all thy Piety nor Wit
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line
Nor all thy Tears wash out a Word of it.

From “The Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam”

Also in the Heraclitean world-view every word we read or utter stamps an indelible mark on us and on those who engage with these words. We are only definable in the language of the changes which occur within us and although such changes may be finely nuanced they are nevertheless cumulative and irreversible.
All temporal events require memory to maintain any kind of status. Once the content is 'lost forever' the event no longer has any status.
I think Khayyam is saying that once done, and event cannot be undone. But I think "status" is an ever changing thing which inevitably change with time. Unless you were using 'status' in its uncommon usage (static), in which case you've just given a tautology; but one that implies a false ambiguity.
A forgotten event has no standing or importance. In the case of a status being a view of an event in vitro, the significance for that moment cannot change as time has moved on, unrepeatable.
But time is not a series of stages. There are no events.

User avatar
SpheresOfBalance
Posts: 5383
Joined: Sat Sep 10, 2011 4:27 pm
Location: On a Star Dust Metamorphosis

Re: Where is "here"?

Post by SpheresOfBalance » Sat Dec 19, 2015 12:15 am

Obvious Leo wrote:We tend to intuitively apply a spatial extension to all the phenomena which we observe but the internet is a good example of how spurious and ephemeral such a spatial extension truly is. An internet debate is a purely temporal phenomenon which only has meaning in terms of causes and effects but if we think about this carefully this is also true for the most mundane of our observations. If we watch a bird flying past the window what ontological meaning can we attach to the space between ourselves and the bird? As Heraclitus said "a man cannot step into the same river twice" and this also applies to our observation of the bird. If we shut our eyes for a moment and then re-open them we are not the same man and we are not observing the same bird, which means that the space between man and bird is meaningless. In fact quantum mechanics states exactly this. In the absence of an observer to "collapse the wave function" the spatio-temporal representation of the bird has no meaning.

"Space and time are modes in which we think, not conditions in which we exist".....Albert Einstein.
Surely what you mean to say is that it's man's meaning that is temporal, not his constituents. I cover that by saying that, "mans meaning, means nothing!" Whether it be his time, or his feeble beliefs as to his quantum physics; nothing what-so-ever. Here today, gone tomorrow, (surely by his own hand). Such that in the end what did his existence really mean? Absolutely nothing! Yet the particles that comprised his body are eternal, in whatever form might be the effect, of the universal causals! "Ashes to ashes, dust to dust," "all we are is dust in the wind!" ;)

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests