Universe can't be infinite.

So what's really going on?

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surreptitious57
Posts: 2913
Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2013 6:09 am

Re: Universe can't be infinite.

Post by surreptitious57 » Sat Jan 12, 2019 1:38 pm

AGE wrote:
surreptitious57 wrote:
I only want to listen to what they are saying and nothing else as this is for me the best way to learn
you are going to insist that some things are right or the best way then how much more are you really going to learn
I find that the older I get then the less dogmatic I am so there are very few things I think are absolutely true
But even those things are merely accepted as being true without the need to be totally dogmatic about them

Age
Posts: 1996
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: Universe can't be infinite.

Post by Age » Sat Jan 12, 2019 1:47 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 1:38 pm
AGE wrote:
surreptitious57 wrote:
I only want to listen to what they are saying and nothing else as this is for me the best way to learn
you are going to insist that some things are right or the best way then how much more are you really going to learn
I find that the older I get then the less dogmatic I am so there are very few things I think are absolutely true
But even those things are merely accepted as being true without the need to be totally dogmatic about them
Yes I know you like to express this view.

Maybe, and hopefully, you will eventually, before the brain stops functioning, become just like you were when you young, that is; completely non-dogmatic, did NOT THINK any thing was absolutely true, and just KNEW what IS absolutely true.

surreptitious57
Posts: 2913
Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2013 6:09 am

Re: Universe can't be infinite.

Post by surreptitious57 » Sat Jan 12, 2019 1:49 pm

AGE wrote:
surreptitious57 wrote:
Being away from others is good for my mind but I can still be around words and feel just as good so they are not the same
Why do you THINK the functioning of that brain is NOT at ease when a human body is in front of you ?
Why would spontaneity put the functioning of a brain not at ease ?
My mind has no control over other minds and spontaneity cannot be anticipated and I do not like surprises [ good or bad ]
I function far better on my own because that is my natural state of being and so anything opposite to that is best avoided

Age
Posts: 1996
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: Universe can't be infinite.

Post by Age » Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:15 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 1:49 pm
AGE wrote:
surreptitious57 wrote:
Being away from others is good for my mind but I can still be around words and feel just as good so they are not the same
Why do you THINK the functioning of that brain is NOT at ease when a human body is in front of you ?
Why would spontaneity put the functioning of a brain not at ease ?
My mind has no control over other minds and spontaneity cannot be anticipated and I do not like surprises [ good or bad ]
I function far better on my own because that is my natural state of being and so anything opposite to that is best avoided
Okay, but I am not sure why you are telling me these things about you, which are NOT really related to the actual questions that I am asking you.

surreptitious57
Posts: 2913
Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2013 6:09 am

Re: Universe can't be infinite.

Post by surreptitious57 » Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:38 pm

AGE wrote:
I am not sure why you are telling me these things about you which are NOT really related to the actual questions that I am asking you
I think the answers I gave are directly related to the questions you were asking so we have a difference of opinion here but this is fine
Your first question was definitely about my mind so I answered it as such and your second one was indirectly about it so I did the same
Anyway some times meaning gets lost in translation especially when there is no body language to reference what is actually being said

seeds
Posts: 763
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2016 9:31 pm

Re: Universe can't be infinite.

Post by seeds » Sat Jan 12, 2019 5:45 pm

AGE wrote: I am not sure why you are telling me these things about you which are NOT really related to the actual questions that I am asking you
surreptitious57 wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:38 pm
I think the answers I gave are directly related to the questions you were asking so we have a difference of opinion here but this is fine
The real question is why are you and “ken” talking about things that have absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the topic of this thread?
_______

Age
Posts: 1996
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: Universe can't be infinite.

Post by Age » Sat Jan 12, 2019 7:55 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:38 pm
AGE wrote:
I am not sure why you are telling me these things about you which are NOT really related to the actual questions that I am asking you
I think the answers I gave are directly related to the questions you were asking so we have a difference of opinion here but this is fine
Your first question was definitely about my mind so I answered it as such and your second one was indirectly about it so I did the same
Anyway some times meaning gets lost in translation especially when there is no body language to reference what is actually being said
Yes that is true. Also, the absolutely different definitions, and thus also different meanings, we give to words also helps in the lose of translation. For example, I could easily say that my first question was definitely NOT about 'your mind' but that would only get lost in translation, so I will NOT say that now.

Age
Posts: 1996
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: Universe can't be infinite.

Post by Age » Sat Jan 12, 2019 7:59 pm

seeds wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 5:45 pm
AGE wrote: I am not sure why you are telling me these things about you which are NOT really related to the actual questions that I am asking you
surreptitious57 wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:38 pm
I think the answers I gave are directly related to the questions you were asking so we have a difference of opinion here but this is fine
The real question is why are you and “ken” talking about things that have absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the topic of this thread?
_______
Now, this is a much better point.

i can NOT accurately speak for surreptitious57 but the reason i was doing this is because i got off topic and had not noticed.

devans99
Posts: 158
Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2018 1:21 pm

Re: Universe can't be infinite.

Post by devans99 » Sun Jan 13, 2019 2:33 pm

Age wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:58 am
devans99 wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 6:38 pm
If you define the universe as everything there is, then say cause and effect apply, it leads to the conclusion that the universe was caused by the universe.
Are you implying that there could be something wrong with that conclusion?
No I'm defending the conclusion as at least a possibility. It implies time is circular.

Age
Posts: 1996
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: Universe can't be infinite.

Post by Age » Sun Jan 13, 2019 2:37 pm

devans99 wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 2:33 pm
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:58 am
devans99 wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 6:38 pm
If you define the universe as everything there is, then say cause and effect apply, it leads to the conclusion that the universe was caused by the universe.
Are you implying that there could be something wrong with that conclusion?
No I'm defending the conclusion as at least a possibility.
Ah okay. That is fine then.
devans99 wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 2:33 pm
It implies time is circular.
I do not see how it implies 'time' is circular, but so be it.

seeds
Posts: 763
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2016 9:31 pm

Re: Universe can't be infinite.

Post by seeds » Mon Jan 14, 2019 7:11 pm

seeds wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 10:33 pm
Because it seems quite obvious (to me, anyway) that the endless and boundless, omnidirectional nothingness that is constantly giving-way to the expansion of our little bubble of reality (again, as depicted in the illustration)...

...represents a clear and tangible visualization of what the word “infinity” truly applies to, and therefore is neither “magic,” nor something that merely exists within the mind.
devans99 wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:24 pm
But what if time itself did not exist in that boundless nothingness?

Or if Einstein's conception of space-time is correct, there is no space-time in the nothingnesses. It simply does not exist because it has no time co-ordinate. Spacetime may have started at the Big Bang and expanded out from there.
Your response doesn’t seem to have anything to do with the issue I was raising with you. Because what does the subject of time have to do with the concept of infinity?

Nevertheless, to address this...
devans99 wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:24 pm
But what if time itself did not exist in that boundless nothingness?
...if we look once again at my, perhaps, overused reference image...

Image

...we understand that according to the Big Bang theory, our bubble of reality appears to have come into existence at a specific moment approximately 13.8 billion years ago. And as such, it thus allows us to use that moment as a “marker” that divides the eternal past from the eternal future.

I hope everyone will forgive me for constantly using the same visualization tools, but imagine the large bracket depicted below...

Past <---------[

...as representing the inception point of the universe, and that each of the tiny dashes represent one billion years of time prior to that inception point.

Now as a matter of speculative logic, at no point would we ever encounter a wall that would prevent us from extending the billion-year dashes infinitely into the past.

Likewise, the same would also apply if the bracket below represented the thermodynamic ending of the universe...

]---------> Future

...for at no point would we ever encounter a time-halting wall.

In which case, the most logical way of viewing the situation - (at least from a purely materialistic perspective) - is that the universe is simply a momentary “blip” that arose within the eternal stream of time...

ETERNITY<----[universe]---->ETERNITY

...and in no way should be perceived as the moment when time “began,” as is suggested in your response.

The truth of the matter is that the universe is, in essence, a “machine-like” phenomenon whose “cogs and gears” can move no faster than the speed of light.

It is a machine that appears to have commandeered time itself and has caused all those who are caught-up within its inner-workings to be subject to the machine’s highly specific cadence.
_______

surreptitious57
Posts: 2913
Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2013 6:09 am

Re: Universe can't be infinite.

Post by surreptitious57 » Tue Jan 15, 2019 5:04 am

seeds wrote:
I hope everyone will forgive me for constantly using the same visualization tools but imagine the large bracket depicted below ...

Past ---------[

... as representing the inception point of the universe and that each of the tiny dashes represent one billion years of time prior to that inception
as a matter of speculative logic at no point would we ever encounter a wall that would prevent us from extending the billion year dashes infinitely
Likewise the same would also apply if the bracket below represented the thermodynamic ending of the universe ...

]--------- Future

... for at no point would we ever encounter a time halting wall

In which case the most logical way of viewing the situation ( at least from a purely materialistic perspective )
is that the universe is simply a momentary blip that arose within the eternal stream of time ...

ETERNITY ---- [universe] ---- ETERNITY

... and in no way should be perceived as the moment when time began as is suggested in your response

The truth of the matter is that the universe is in essence a machine like phenomenon whose cogs and gears can move no faster than the speed
of light . It is a machine that appears to have commandeered time itself and has caused all those who are caught up within its inner workings to
be subject to the machines highly specific cadence
Separating the Universe from Eternity is problematic because if the definition of Universe is ALL THERE IS then logically that would include everything outside of the Universe too . So Eternity has to be part of the Universe . And it has to be eternal since absolute nothing can only
exist infinitesimally before it is violated by quantum fluctuations

Age
Posts: 1996
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: Universe can't be infinite.

Post by Age » Tue Jan 15, 2019 5:52 am

surreptitious57 wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 5:04 am
seeds wrote:
I hope everyone will forgive me for constantly using the same visualization tools but imagine the large bracket depicted below ...

Past ---------[

... as representing the inception point of the universe and that each of the tiny dashes represent one billion years of time prior to that inception
as a matter of speculative logic at no point would we ever encounter a wall that would prevent us from extending the billion year dashes infinitely
Likewise the same would also apply if the bracket below represented the thermodynamic ending of the universe ...

]--------- Future

... for at no point would we ever encounter a time halting wall

In which case the most logical way of viewing the situation - ( at least from a purely materialistic perspective )
is that the universe is simply a momentary blip that arose within the eternal stream of time ...

ETERNITY ----[universe]---- ETERNITY

... and in no way should be perceived as the moment when time began as is suggested in your response

The truth of the matter is that the universe is in essence a machine like phenomenon whose cogs and gears can move no faster than the speed
of light . It is a machine that appears to have commandeered time itself and has caused all those who are caught up within its inner workings to
be subject to the machines highly specific cadence
Separating the Universe from Eternity is problematic because if the definition of Universe is ALL THERE IS then logically that would include everything outside of the Universe .
But there ALSO can NOT be any thing nor even no thing "outside" of the Universe. As you incorrectly stated but correctly suggested; if the definition of 'Universe' is ALL-THERE-IS, then that would have to include absolutely EVERY thing, which obviously any thing AND no thing is a part of.

For example, let us say that if you imagined that the Universe was of a particular size and limit and there was nothing 'outside' of that size. If one is going to define the 'Universe' as ALL-THERE-IS but NOT the "nothing" on the outside of that imagined Universe, then that is different. But, IF the definition of 'Universe' IS ALL-THERE-IS, then that is what it IS. This means that if there is any region of nothingness, nothing, and/or no things, "within" or "outside" of an IMAGINED limit, then that MUST BE and is still included in the definition of the 'Universe'.

Now, obviously there is NO boundary, limit, nor barrier to ALL-THERE-IS.
Therefore, IF the word 'Universe' means ALL-THERE-IS, then the Universe IS infinite, AND eternal.

Simple AND easy really.

To IMAGINE that there is an "outside" of ALL-THERE-IS is to imagine some thing that does NOT exist. Of course one can make a model or draw a picture TRYING TO depict the Universe, Itself, like seeds has, and show a defined line of separation between things, and no things, but the region of no things is STILL a part of ALL-THERE-IS. which obviously has NO limit. Thus again infinite.

Also, in that picture of seed's Universe there obviously could NOT be a distinct separation between physical things, and nothingness, like shown in that picture. This is because there will ALWAYS exist a separation of space or no things between physical things and so to draw a distinct line like shown is a truly inaccurate depiction of what IS actually Real and True.

To be able to SEE and UNDERSTAND this, just imagine that there was a supposed "limit" to the Universe again. Now imagine you are standing on a planet on the very "outer edge" of that "limit". Now when looking at the next planet or star along that "outer line" of the Universe. There is a region between you and the next planet/star of no things, nothing, and nothingness. Now could you point anywhere and SHOW another person a distinct line of separation between the "inside" and the "outside" of the Universe? Or, could you just SHOW an imagined distinct line of separation?

If it is the latter, then that IMAGINING is ALL any one is doing when they say there is an "outside" of the Universe, Itself. Human beings do have a tendency of doing this IMAGINING what IS the Truth, instead of just LOOKING at what the actual Truth IS.

If, however, it is the former, then can you explain how you could possibly do this?
surreptitious57 wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 5:04 am
So Eternity is therefore part of the Universe . And it has to be eternal since absolute nothing can only
exist infinitesimally before it is violated by quantum fluctuations

surreptitious57
Posts: 2913
Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2013 6:09 am

Re: Universe can't be infinite.

Post by surreptitious57 » Tue Jan 15, 2019 6:17 am

I meant outside of the Universe as seeds has depicted
Of course in actuality there can be no such thing as outside of the Universe because it is ALL THERE IS
The Universe is the eternal NOW that has always existed and will always exist what ever form it takes

surreptitious57
Posts: 2913
Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2013 6:09 am

Re: Universe can't be infinite.

Post by surreptitious57 » Tue Jan 15, 2019 6:25 am

Nothing outside of the the eternal NOW can ever be experienced as past and future only exist as concepts . The smallest unit of NOW
is the smallest point at which time can exist without it actually stopping [ this point can not actually be measured only experienced ]

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