Problem of evil

[3Sum]

Oh, so you're a fundie? Those threats are really cute, just this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iClejS8vWjo

[HexHammer]

Just great for us, right? Now we can kill each other easier. 1) God is the one who supposedly created all the problems in the first place. 2) If I could end starvation, diseases, natural disasters etc. I would. Your god not only won't end them, but created them all. If you could, would you not help starving children? Or innocent old people getting robbed? Or women being raped? Or people with deadly diseases? If you'd act as your god I consider you to be immoral and evil too.

Why should I serve your god and not the Flying Spaghetti Monster? His Noodliness is much nicer. Also, slavery is so out of fashion in 21st century.

He's not my god, I'm an atheist, I asnwerd directly to the topic at hand, but you are nothing but a compulsive whiner attacking everybody that doesn't kiss your ass.

We have aid organisations that helps starvation, not always effective, besides God help people, probaly not always having time to do so, it took 400 years for Moses to be send.

The problems you see are often man made, besides we can avoid most natural disasters with technology.

Since you are not out there solving the world's problem, you are evil too, infact even more evil since you are blatantly blind to all the humans who tries to solve the problems, but you only sit there and whine.

[3Sum]

He's not my god, I'm an atheist,

Why do I doubt that? But whatever.

I asnwerd directly to the topic at hand, but you are nothing but a compulsive whiner attacking everybody that doesn't kiss your ass.

You're the one whining AND insulting.

We have aid organisations that helps starvation, not always effective,

Sure, there are good people. That's why the title of this thread is "problem of evil".

God help people, probaly not always having time to do so, it took 400 years for Moses to be send.

LOL? I sincerely hope you're trolling me.

The problems you see are often man made, besides we can avoid most natural disasters with technology.

Man is god made, no? So god is ultimately responsible for whatever man does cause the behavior of man depends solely on the way god designs them. Human (homo sapiens) is limited by his biological predispositions. God is the one who supposedly put the limitations there. If there's something wrong with the painting, do you blame the painting or the painter? If there's something wrong with the computer program do you blame the program or the programmer? If there's something wrong with a robot do you blame the robot or his designer?

Since you are not out there solving the world's problem, you are evil too, infact even more evil since you are blatantly blind to all the humans who tries to solve the problems, but you only sit there and whine.

Now I'm pretty sure you're trolling me. But I'll respond regardless, purely cause I love debating and somebody else might sincerely commit such stupid mistakes in reasoning.

I do help. Maybe not as much as I could, but I do. I'm not blind to people who try to solve the problems, I admire them. I, however, also notice a lot of evil in the world, far too much for a good god to exist. And then I notice delusional people who think ignoring and justifying the problems will somehow make them go away. It won't. Acknowledging the TRUTH and working towards SOLVING the problem will help.

Even if one day we do reach the point where we can say that there is almost no evil in the world a good god would still not be justified because of all the horrors he made and let happen in the past.

[HexHammer]

If god creates fire, and humans uses it for cooking meat, heat their homes, and what not, but in some cases puromans will set fire to people's homes, then you blame God, instead of blaming the arsenists.

Logical phallacy.

[3Sum]

If god creates fire, and humans uses it for cooking meat, heat their homes, and what not, but in some cases puromans will set fire to people's homes, then you blame God, instead of blaming the arsenists.

Logical phallacy.

1) Could god have not created something similar to fire which can help humans but not destroy them? Is he that impotent?
2) God created humans capable of being harmed by fire and sometimes too inept to avoid being harmed by fire. God created humans willing to set fire to people's homes.
3) If some humans can prevent the fire easily from happening but don't, I'd be angry at them too. God could, supposedly, end a fire and save lives almost without trying. Yet he doesn't. Even though he's the one who created the problems. Such an asshole, right?

[HexHammer]

If god creates fire, and humans uses it for cooking meat, heat their homes, and what not, but in some cases puromans will set fire to people's homes, then you blame God, instead of blaming the arsenists.

Logical phallacy.

1) Could god have not created something similar to fire which can help humans but not destroy them? Is he that impotent?
2) God created humans capable of being harmed by fire and sometimes too inept to avoid being harmed by fire. God created humans willing to set fire to people's homes.
3) If some humans can prevent the fire easily from happening but don't, I'd be angry at them too. God could, supposedly, end a fire and save lives almost without trying. Yet he doesn't. Even though he's the one who created the problems. Such an asshole, right?

Everything can be used as good or evil, it's up to humans to goven it, not God.

Stop being so whiney.

[reasonvemotion]

Bible is full of contradictions and outright lies. .........

and they are?...................

I see the god you worship is Heraclitus.

Is God the Creator also the creator of sin? Scripture points out that "God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone" (James 1:13);

He could have prevented sin, as you pointed out, by creating a universe of robots that would do only what they were programmed to do. But He created beings who could respond freely and such a response is possible only from beings who have the power of choice. Providing man with this kind of freedom however, meant that a risk must be taken and that some would turn from Him. There are many scriptural passages, particularly the account of the Fall of man, which make it clear that sin is a moral evil, the result of a free moral agent's choosing to violate God's will. (Gen 3:1-6; Rom. 1:18-22).

The antidote for guilt is forgiveness (Matt. 6:12), which results in a clear conscience and peace of mind.

Increasingly, philosophies of nihilism and despair and lack of faith, appear valid today. Job has a better grasp of reality, time trudges on "'day after hopeless day'" (Job 7:6, LB).

Man's world is running down.

[3Sum]

and they are?...................

Oh, and I forgot to mention horrible atrocities committed or commanded by god.

Here: http://www.evilbible.com/ and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RB3g6mXLEKk

He could have prevented sin, as you pointed out, by creating a universe of robots that would do only what they were programmed to do. But He created beings who could respond freely and such a response is possible only from beings who have the power of choice. Providing man with this kind of freedom however, meant that a risk must be taken and that some would turn from Him. There are many scriptural passages, particularly the account of the Fall of man, which make it clear that sin is a moral evil, the result of a free moral agent's choosing to violate God's will.

I don't think you understand. Humans don't have "free" will. Our will is limited. EXTREMELY limited. I already gave examples for that in my OP.

I can't really DO what I WANT, I don't even have the free will to CONTROL what I WANT. Example for the former: I can't survive without nutrition. Example for the latter: I'm a male and I can't want to have sex with another man since I'm not biologically determined to be homosexual. We are limited by natural laws, state laws and even our own mind and imagination. I want to ride dragons and summon unicorns. I can't.

We humans are simply acting according to our DNA, brain and chemical reactions in it. Who (supposedly) designed them? God. So, god is ultimately responsible for whatever we do since he supposedly designed us. And since he is omniscient and omnipotent he could have designed us any way he wanted and he knows what the repercussions will be of any particular type of design and knows what we will do before us.

If somebody attacked you and your family, would you: 1) Defend your family or 2) Let the attacker kill all of you, cause you don't want to impede on his free will.

Do you perhaps see my point here? Our will to do what we want ends where other people's rights begin. Even us humans are rational and moral enough to comprehend that, so that gives a being of supposed intelligence of god no excuse. If god made somebody wanting to take other people's rights and act maliciously towards others then that god is evil. Creating a free evil being is horrible enough, and not stopping them in the process of doing evil and hurting others is even more evil.

Not only is wanting to do evil unnecessary in being a moral agent and a "free" person, it's UNWANTED since us moral humans DON'T WANT others to want to do harm and evil, even at the expense of their freedom (prisons). God could have easily made us capable of doing evil, recognizing evil when it happens but never wanting to do evil.

So why doesn't god realize that and remove evil from mankind? In fact, why didn't god make us FREE FROM EVIL in the first place? God could have given us the ability to make choices but between good choices, not good and bad choices.

Also, what about heaven according to you? Assuming that in heaven nobody ever does anything evil, do we have free will in heaven? Pick: A) No - We lose our free will in heaven or B) Yes, free will can be had without ever doing evil.

[bobevenson]

The problem of evil is institutional; there is no other basis for it. Again, I refer you to Revelation 17:17, "For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled." It is our institutions that prevent God's will from reaching our brains.

[reasonvemotion]

The rule is a simple one. In interpreting Scripture you must always consider the fact that the Bible does not contradict itself. If a proposed interpretation conflicts with other Scripture then your interpretation is not correct.

I don't think you understand. Humans don't have "free" will. Our will is limited. EXTREMELY limited. I already gave examples for that in my OP.

We either have free will or we don't, if it is EXTREMELY limited as you write, then you propose we have it. So you agree with the Scriptures.

You did not answer my question, concerning Heraclitus?

Is he your interpretation of a creator, a god? Your sly method of introducing "fire" into your post would seem a very obvious move to make after your attempt to discredit the Scriptures and replace them with theory of Heraclitus. Which means you are not immune to a god, just The God.

[3Sum]

reasonvemotion that's not how the process of critical, logical scrutiny works. That means assuming that the book must be correct and making up ridiculous excuses when obvious contradictions are shown.

We either have free will or we don't, if it is EXTREMELY limited as you write, then you propose we have it. So you agree with the Scriptures.

It's not as black and white as you think it is. Some things we can choose, others we can't. And our will isn't really completely "free" because it's still bound by natural laws, state laws, our own mind and body. I already gave examples.

You did not answer my question, concerning Heraclitus?

I don't worship anything, thanks. Except Flying Spaghetti Monster ofc

Just wondering how will you get around these CONTRADICTIONS:

War or Peace?

EXO 15:3 The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name.

ROM 15:33 Now the God of peace be with you all. Amen.

Who is the father of Joseph?

MAT 1:16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

LUK 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli.

The sins of the father

ISA 14:21 Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers; that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities.

DEU 24:16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

Can god be seen?

"For I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved." (GEN 32:30)
"And the Lord spake to Moses face to face, as a man speaketh to his friend." (EXO 33:11)

"No man hath seen God at any time." (JOH 1:18)

Does god tempt people?

"And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham." (GEN 22:1)

"Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God; for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man." (JAS 1:13)

Want me to list some more?

[reasonvemotion]

War or Peace?

EXO 15:3 The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name.

ROM 15:33 Now the God of peace be with you all. Amen.

The most basic answer to this supposed contradiction is that both statements are true depending on the time and context.

We must consider the recipients of war and the recipients of peace. God has never promised peace to the wicked. In fact, He has stated exactly the opposite. “‘There is no peace,’ says the Lord, ‘for the wicked’” (Isaiah 48:22). The promises of peace in Romans 15 and elsewhere are given to God’s people alone. We should also understand that the peace God gives does not always mean there will be no trouble, but rather it means when and if there is, we will have God’s words of comfort during difficult times.

His ultimate war is against sin and death. A God of peace and a God of war are not in contradiction.

The explanations are in the Scriptures, for each verse you have given.

Any man who desires to study the Word, must do so not only with the intellect but with faith, then the biblical message becomes meaningful.

[3Sum]

Now the God of peace be with you all. Amen.

"There is no peace," says the LORD, "for the wicked."

Again a contradiction. However you turn it it's a contradiction because peace for all contradicts war. Peace for ALL includes ALL, ALL includes the wicked.

A war against sin? He's the one who supposedly created everything, including sin. I usually consider that if a being such as god existed he would be capable of removing sin.

Faith is not a good thing. Believing in something without any evidence, and sometimes even with evidence to the contrary is NOT a good thing.

Also, you failed to address any other point I made and all other contradictions.

[reasonvemotion]

Proverbs 23:9

Do not speak in the hearing of a fool, for he will despise the good sense of your words

[3Sum]

Pastafarians 66:6

The fool is the one quoting his religion's holy scriptures and holding them to be infallible without questioning them.