CIA Water Boarding is Morally Permissible

[vegetariantaxidermy]

Is that avatar supposed to be ironic? On second though, irony would be way out of range for your dental-floss brain.

[fiveredapples]

Is that avatar supposed to be ironic? On second though, irony would be way out of range for your dental-floss brain.

And this is substantive philosophy, right? This isn't just name-calling? Irony knows no better champion.

The avatar is Ludwig Wittgenstein, which some of you likely already knew. My name is "fiveredapples", which might sound familiar if you've read Philosophical Investigations, in which Wittgenstein gives a language-game example of someone being sent to the market with the note "five red apples." That's it. That's the reference.

[vegetariantaxidermy]

Is that avatar supposed to be ironic? On second though, irony would be way out of range for your dental-floss brain.

And this is substantive philosophy, right? This isn't just name-calling? Irony knows no better champion.

The avatar is Ludwig Wittgenstein, which some of you likely already knew. My name is "fiveredapples", which might sound familiar if you've read Philosophical Investigations, in which Wittgenstein gives a language-game example of someone being sent to the market with the note "five red apples." That's it. That's the reference.

I was right.

[Greta]

Here is FiveRedApples' argument: Waterboarding is not torture - it is instead just a matter of inflicting ever more physical discomfort to another person until they bend to your will

FRA is a toxic time-wasting troll who lacks the character and intellectual chops to debate a topic without denigration.

[vegetariantaxidermy]

Here is FiveRedApples' argument: Waterboarding is not torture - it is instead just a matter of inflicting ever more physical discomfort to another person until they bend to your will

FRA is a toxic time-wasting troll who lacks the character and intellectual chops to debate a topic without denigration.

A troll indeed. He seems very bitter about something. Perhaps his unrecognised genius?

[Greta]

Here is FiveRedApples' argument: Waterboarding is not torture - it is instead just a matter of inflicting ever more physical discomfort to another person until they bend to your will

FRA is a toxic time-wasting troll who lacks the character and intellectual chops to debate a topic without denigration.

A troll indeed. He seems very bitter about something. Perhaps his unrecognised genius?

Maybe. Don't care. I'd rather not waste another moment on him unless he can show himself of interacting like an adult rather than a spoiled teenager. It's hard to have any faith in that happening given that he melts down at the slightest hint of disagreement. I broke my own rule - it's best to avoid trolls because they just bring you down.

[vegetariantaxidermy]

Here is FiveRedApples' argument: Waterboarding is not torture - it is instead just a matter of inflicting ever more physical discomfort to another person until they bend to your will

FRA is a toxic time-wasting troll who lacks the character and intellectual chops to debate a topic without denigration.

A troll indeed. He seems very bitter about something. Perhaps his unrecognised genius?

Maybe. Don't care. I'd rather not waste another moment on him unless he can show himself of interacting like an adult rather than a spoiled teenager. It's hard to have any faith in that happening given that he melts down at the slightest hint of disagreement. I broke my own rule - it's best to avoid trolls because they just bring you down.

I haven't had dealings with him before, but he seems to be known and generally despised on here, and apparently shows up out of nowhere under various usernames. It didn't take long to work out that he was a troll though. A particularly unpleasant one.

[Greta]

A troll indeed. He seems very bitter about something. Perhaps his unrecognised genius?

Maybe. Don't care. I'd rather not waste another moment on him unless he can show himself of interacting like an adult rather than a spoiled teenager. It's hard to have any faith in that happening given that he melts down at the slightest hint of disagreement. I broke my own rule - it's best to avoid trolls because they just bring you down.

I haven't had dealings with him before, but he seems to be known and generally despised on here, and apparently shows up out of nowhere under various usernames. It didn't take long to work out that he was a troll though. A particularly unpleasant one.

I've never known anyone online to wear a bigger "kick me" sign. He makes a trollish, spurious argument with laughable rationalisations and then carries on like a hysterical fool at the first sign of dissent. He has been banned from at least one other philosophy forum - "Reason: flaming/abusiveness". A time waster with nothing useful to add, certainly nothing that's worth the aggravation he brings.

[Arising_uk]

Guantanamo detainee speaks from experience.

[vegetariantaxidermy]

Guantanamo detainee speaks from experience.

But it was goodies who did that, so it doesn't count. We have the US to thank for radical islamic fanaticism, and it's only going to get worse.

[Greta]

"Enhanced interrogation techniques" ... Do you think us barbarians?? No no no, we'll just put you in states of agony and terror until you say what we want. It's not torture, you see, just an EIT. You'll bounce back just fine. PTSD? Impossible! An old wives' tale!. No need to consider how PTSD changes the brain ... http://brainblogger.com/2015/01/24/how- ... the-brain/

[fiveredapples]

I want to say that, with my limited time, I have skipped over some earlier comments which looked like legitimate objections that deserve responses, so if you've made good objections -- which may be right or wrong -- I will go back and address those comments in a day or two. For now, let me address the latest comments.

Here is FiveRedApples' argument: Waterboarding is not torture - it is instead just a matter of inflicting ever more physical discomfort to another person until they bend to your will

Here's a little advice. You should always be charitable to your opponent; otherwise, it makes your position look weaker.

My position is that CIA water boarding is morally permissible. And part of the reason why I think that is because the severity of the act is immaterial. That might sound strange to many, but the reasoning is quite simple. CIA water boarding is a preventative measure. It is done to thwart terrorist plots underway. And since we have millions of examples of much more severe actions which are morally permissible when done as preventative measures, I see no reason why water boarding, which is relatively benign, should be an exception. So, as far as I see it, it's easily morally permissible.

Consider that in many cases we are morally permitted to chop off someone's arm, shoot them with an arrow in the head, or push them off a cliff, if those actions are done as a preventative measure against someone who has immorally or illegally attacked you such that the only way to preserve your life -- or that of other innocents -- is to do any of those acts. So, if it's morally permissible to chop off someone's arm under certain circumstances, then obviously doing something much less severe (namely water boarding him) isn't problematic morally. That's just common sense.

Now, a full-blown argument will require some nuance and more to be said, but I don't see how the severity of an act will play much, if any, role in determining whether it's morally permissible or not. Let me stop there, or I'll end up giving the whole argument in a response-post, and I'd rather give it as a separate post.

My original argument was not in fact an argument for the moral permissibility of CIA water boarding. Strictly speaking, I gave an argument for why CIA water boarding is not torture. This is a premise which almost everyone takes for granted, but if I deny it, then the onus is on those who insist it's true to give an argument. Nobody here has, or likely can, give a cogent argument for this premise. If you believe that CIA water boarding is morally impermissible, then you're likely going to need the premise that it's torture. Where is that argument? You can't just simply insist that it is, because to many people quite the opposite seems obvious. So the onus is on you to show that CIA water boarding involves severe pain or severe suffering, which will require more than "it's obvious" as an argument. And Christopher Hitchens does nothing for you, as explained.

FRA is a toxic time-wasting troll who lacks the character and intellectual chops to debate a topic without denigration.

Calling me names works against you when I -- and no one else -- is giving clear, forceful arguments for his views. You can say I'm arrogant or vulgar (you guys are too), but you cannot say that I don't give arguments. And, please, reference a post where someone else lays out an argument the way I have several times in this thread. If you're looking for pats on the back from your fellow travelers, then you'll have them. But if you're looking for respect from reasonable people, you are failing sorely.

[fiveredapples]

Guantanamo detainee speaks from experience.

LMAO...I embarrassed you several years ago, but you're back for more, Arising_uk?

The link is irrelevant. How did you manage to get dumber during all these years? We're talking about CIA water boarding, of which there are three cases, one being Khalid Sheik Mohammed. Unless you have evidence pertaining to one of them, then you're bringing up irrelevant information. In other words, you are still as clueless as ever about philosophy.

[vegetariantaxidermy]

Guantanamo detainee speaks from experience.

LMAO...I embarrassed you several years ago, but you're back for more, Arising_uk?

The link is irrelevant. How did you manage to get dumber during all these years? We're talking about CIA water boarding, of which there are three cases, one being Khalid Sheik Mohammed. Unless you have evidence pertaining to one of them, then you're bringing up irrelevant information. In other words, you are still as clueless as ever about philosophy.

'...but you cannot say that I don't give arguments.''

You cannot give arguments. And what the fuck ARE you saying exactly? That only three people have been waterboarded, and that 'CIA waterboarding' is a gentle form of waterboarding? How the hell would you know how many people have been waterboarded? You really are a sneery little Y-front skidmark of a man.

[Arising_uk]

LMAO...I embarrassed you several years ago, but you're back for more, Arising_uk? ...

Did you? I can't remember all the little pissant trolls who come and go here.

The link is irrelevant. How did you manage to get dumber during all these years? ...

Years!? As I remember now, you're the twat who said he was just back to find someone and would be gone from this menagerie toot sweet but here you are again troll.

We're talking about CIA water boarding, of which there are three cases, one being Khalid Sheik Mohammed. Unless you have evidence pertaining to one of them, then you're bringing up irrelevant information. In other words, you are still as clueless as ever about philosophy.

Didn't bother reading the link then, how philosophical of you.