Authentic vs. Vicarious?

[SpheresOfBalance]

Having problems, I See!
Did you hear a sound, as if something cut through the air directly over your head?

When the shit from the horse of a different colour helps the rose by any other name grow better, maybe then you will know how to use your metaphors properly but then if you keep imagining flying pigs there really is no hope for you, even if it springs eternal.

That you comment on your ignorance, is no surprise.

Only cowards nymshift!

So far tree people on this Forum seem to thrive on conflict and derision: HexHammer, thedoc, and now yourself.
Is this going to be all I can expect from you?
Or are you going to discuss some aspect of the thread topic.

As the pot calls the kettle black, as to conflict and derision, and I quote:

Since I don't know anything about you I shall conclude that you are short, ugly, live alone, wank too much, and have no friends. Yep - that just about sums you up. Oh, wait, you are unemployed and living on disability allowance due to you having to type your shit with you mouth because you let your pet cat (your only friend), eat your fingers. Sadly the cat died of blood poisoning due to the cocktail of viruses that inhabit your fetid corpse-like shell you call a body.

I only ever treat in kind, and I quote:

We are all of mixed race! It's called the Human Race! It's the only Race that matters!
!

I don't think it is the only race that matters. A broad diversity of other species also matters.

You knew full well the topic at hand, contextually speaking, yet you had to correct me, as if that's what I had meant. The OP never included other animals, clearly only humans, and I quote the OP:

You don't have to watch this clip but I would, it would add context, but let me get straight to the point, do you think in a modern world where boundaries are becoming blurred, the idea of race makes any sense at all. Now I am not talking about in medicine where of course some peoples from certain places have certain disease that are more prevalent, nor about socialism where cultural differences are clear, but the more ignorant racism: ie Whites are smarter than Blacks but not as smart as the Chinese, the sort of dumbery that comes with a flavour and an agenda to pervert good science. Is it even worth it now, or is there a clear divide between races that should and must be acknowledged, what are your views?

You knew better, you in search of conflict, the only reason for such a retort, considering the situation.

What an insult, as no one here has more regard for the complexity, and diversity of this biosphere than I. Allowing for all but those that destroy it, even them when they finally come to that unselfish understanding, finally their enlightenment.

"Blaggard, where are you Blaggard? Oh there you are!"

[thedoc]

Having problems, I See!
Did you hear a sound, as if something cut through the air directly over your head?

So far tree people on this Forum seem to thrive on conflict and derision: HexHammer, thedoc, and now yourself.
Is this going to be all I can expect from you?

FYI, I am not a "tree people", whatever that is supposed to mean?

Also, do you really expect more than you contribute, in reply?

[thedoc]

"Blaggard, where are you Blaggard? Oh there you are!"

I believe that "Blaggard" has left the building. Amidst mixed reviews.

[Lev Muishkin]

Having problems, I See!
Did you hear a sound, as if something cut through the air directly over your head?

So far tree people on this Forum seem to thrive on conflict and derision: HexHammer, thedoc, and now yourself.
Is this going to be all I can expect from you?

FYI, I am not a "tree people", whatever that is supposed to mean?

Also, do you really expect more than you contribute, in reply?

It must be me OIrish side cummin out! Der were deez tree fellahs!!

Reminds me of a old Benny Hill joke.

Sign says: Tree Fellers Needed.

Moichel we need der work, let's go fer dat job!
Patrick, I'd luv to but there is only the two of us!

I've made contribution to the thread. I was hoping that you might at some point.
Obviously SoB is completely obsessed with personal attacks, (take a look at his last post) I was hoping you might not be?

[thedoc]

It's called "proofreading" and if you are careless with that, perhaps your thinking is just as careless?

[thedoc]

I also noticed that when the attacks started, you didn't resist the urge to join in.

[SpheresOfBalance]

Having problems, I See!
Did you hear a sound, as if something cut through the air directly over your head?

So far tree people on this Forum seem to thrive on conflict and derision: HexHammer, thedoc, and now yourself.
Is this going to be all I can expect from you?

FYI, I am not a "tree people", whatever that is supposed to mean?

Also, do you really expect more than you contribute, in reply?

It must be me OIrish side cummin out! Der were deez tree fellahs!!

Reminds me of a old Benny Hill joke.

Sign says: Tree Fellers Needed.

Moichel we need der work, let's go fer dat job!
Patrick, I'd luv to but there is only the two of us!

I've made contribution to the thread. I was hoping that you might at some point.
Obviously SoB is completely obsessed with personal attacks, (take a look at his last post) I was hoping you might not be?

Not at all, rather: due to my PTSD arising at age 3-4, and the resulting anxiety, especially worse as I age, I'm obsessed with "NOT" being attacked, unnecessarily. As I've had "quite" enough of it, crap I was essentially weened on it. I was literally made unconscious by my father. Imagine looking over your shoulder, afraid of being killed by one that's supposed to love you, since age 4, for your entire life. Where was my sanctuary to be found? Go ahead you can do it. The next time you see a 3-4 year old, imagine you as he, and yet me. Yes some would say that talking to me is like walking on eggshells. Very sensitive to "UNWARRANTED" critique, I am.

So as to HH you said you didn't know squat about him. Yet I fear not people knowing about me, so there you go! You know why I do not fear people knowing? Because it has the ability to then show them for what they really are, and I enjoy seeing them exposed, for what ever it reveals!

Keep in mind that I care for "all" life on this floating blue sphere, even the ones that just don't get it.

So the balls in your court sir, it's your move!

I want to see inside your soul, the "observer" that life has made me...

...If only I could look into your eyes, the story would then be told...

[Lev Muishkin]

It's called "proofreading" and if you are careless with that, perhaps your thinking is just as careless?

And this relates to vicariousness/authenticity, how?

Here's an example.

SoB gets his rocks off, not from thinking, but from sparing with others. He lives his life through others and whatever trollish conflicts he can elicit.

You have only to look at the last few posts in this thread to see that.

[SpheresOfBalance]

It's called "proofreading" and if you are careless with that, perhaps your thinking is just as careless?

And this relates to vicariousness/authenticity, how?

Here's an example.

SoB gets his rocks off, not from thinking, but from sparing with others. He lives his life through others and whatever trollish conflicts he can elicit.

You have only to look at the last few posts in this thread to see that.

No, rather I spar with those that "initiate" sparing with me. I'm fine when one talks only of the facts nothing but the facts, as to the topic at hand. I have had many a great talks with those that do not descend into name calling, or any sort of demeaning attitude. And if I'm wrong as to their intent to be demeaning or condescending, because they inform me of such, I'm quick to apologize, for the misunderstanding. I would rather not descend into that nasty place, yet I'll not take anyone's crap either, I'VE HAD ENOUGH!!!!

It's the days of reckoning for all those that think I'll roll over and take any crap! The closer to death I get, the more it becomes true.

Peace, I only love PEACE!

I'm the classic "an eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth," kind of guy. Many here have instead given me the shirt off their back, and I have done likewise. I shall continue treating people in kind, they get what they sow.

So take your pick as to what you care to give, as I am only a mere reflection of any particular giver.

Do you and I have misunderstanding between us?

The balls yet again in your court, my friend, do with it as you please, your fear, selflessness, selfishness, reason, logic, compassion, ego, etc, let it speak as it does! I'm always listening, quite intently, the observer that life has made me!

Fear the mind killer, actually to the point of fearing to let it be known that we fear.

I fear, do you?

I also cry, quite a lot, during a tender movie, dealing with sensitive human emotions, you?

I can also laugh at myself, you?

[SpheresOfBalance]

As to this topic. I have given much of myself to this group, in that I have laid myself out on the table for all to see. Have any of you been able to live through my experiences vicariously? Or do you believe that you would have to authentically experience them? Old timers shall be more apt to make realistic comments, as I seriously doubt any newbies have used their time perusing my older posts, to see a more complete view of the exposition of my shortcomings.

[Lev Muishkin]

As to this topic. I have given much of myself to this group, in that I have laid myself out on the table for all to see. Have any of you been able to live through my experiences vicariously? Or do you believe that you would have to authentically experience them? Old timers shall be more apt to make realistic comments, as I seriously doubt any newbies have used their time perusing my older posts, to see a more complete view of the exposition of my shortcomings.

Let's put aside your ego for a moment, shall we?

I think the terms are more subtle, less literal, than your post would suggest.
Taking the words absolutely literally, would mean that it is always completely impossible to life vicariously. In fact literally the whole idea is ludicrous. That would also mean that everything you or I, or anyone does, is wholly authentic.
But these words exist, and so they have some sort of meaning which you have not cottoned on to. But then I think no one on the thread has yet addressed what the question of the OP actually is.
I have asked for clarification, but none is forthcoming.

The reason I made the comment about you (above) is that you seem obsessed with your personal image, so much so that you seem to thrive on the validation of others. So far, this is the closest anyone has come to a demonstration of vicariousness.

[Arising_uk]

Are vicarious experiences as valid as authentic ones that you have experienced yourself. ...

Depends what you mean by "valid"?

Everyone has stories that relate to their lives, some have been lived directly, some are experiences of others and those stories are part of ones life.

Whilst it may be true that the stories are experienced you would have to say how one can have an experience of another's experience?

[Lev Muishkin]

Are vicarious experiences as valid as authentic ones that you have experienced yourself. ...

Depends what you mean by "valid"?

Everyone has stories that relate to their lives, some have been lived directly, some are experiences of others and those stories are part of ones life.

Whilst it may be true that the stories are experienced you would have to say how one can have an experience of another's experience?

I've been asking this question since the outset. I suggested "employment" or religion in which you vicariously mimic the life of Jesus. The word Vicar, is derived from vicarious for good reason.
I don't think thedoc has thought about it.

[thedoc]

Are vicarious experiences as valid as authentic ones that you have experienced yourself. ...

Depends what you mean by "valid"?

Everyone has stories that relate to their lives, some have been lived directly, some are experiences of others and those stories are part of ones life.

Whilst it may be true that the stories are experienced you would have to say how one can have an experience of another's experience?

Will those experiences have some meaning in your life? Certainly direct experience can have a greater influence, but can you learn from a vicarious experience in a way that will effect your life.


henry quirk wrote:
"Sure, that applies to us all, highlighting that the vicarious is inferior to the authentic."


In cases where the vicarious and the authentic are equally practical and possible I would agree with this, but there are exceptions. When the authentic is not possible and the vicarious is the only experience available, then it is superior by default. There are other times when the vicarious is preferable to the authentic such as in artistic performance. You mentioned singing and I have participated in several forms of performance, I have even been told that I have a good singing voice, however I have found that listening to a good performance is often preferable to preforming. When performing there is much attention to remembering the words and music, where listening allows one to get more involved in the music. The same can apply to a painting, years ago I had done some oil painting, but I still find more meaning and enjoyment viewing a painting by another. Another example is playing the piano. I can play several pieces and a few I can play as well as anyone else, but my repertoire is limited and being away from the piano for 40 years, relearning pieces and learning new ones is very difficult and time consuming. I can listen to pieces I cannot play, so in these cases the vicarious experience is superior to the authentic. So realistically I must say that in many cases the vicarious is superior to the authentic.

[Lev Muishkin]

Are vicarious experiences as valid as authentic ones that you have experienced yourself. ...

Depends what you mean by "valid"?

Everyone has stories that relate to their lives, some have been lived directly, some are experiences of others and those stories are part of ones life.

Whilst it may be true that the stories are experienced you would have to say how one can have an experience of another's experience?

Will those experiences have some meaning in your life? Certainly direct experience can have a greater influence, but can you learn from a vicarious experience in a way that will effect your life.


henry quirk wrote:
"Sure, that applies to us all, highlighting that the vicarious is inferior to the authentic."


In cases where the vicarious and the authentic are equally practical and possible I would agree with this, but there are exceptions. When the authentic is not possible and the vicarious is the only experience available, then it is superior by default. There are other times when the vicarious is preferable to the authentic such as in artistic performance. You mentioned singing and I have participated in several forms of performance, I have even been told that I have a good singing voice, however I have found that listening to a good performance is often preferable to preforming. When performing there is much attention to remembering the words and music, where listening allows one to get more involved in the music. The same can apply to a painting, years ago I had done some oil painting, but I still find more meaning and enjoyment viewing a painting by another. Another example is playing the piano. I can play several pieces and a few I can play as well as anyone else, but my repertoire is limited and being away from the piano for 40 years, relearning pieces and learning new ones is very difficult and time consuming. I can listen to pieces I cannot play, so in these cases the vicarious experience is superior to the authentic. So realistically I must say that in many cases the vicarious is superior to the authentic.

QED, my last comment.