Internet Pornography

[reasonvemotion]

Is it a re-print of Origins or the Decent of Man ?

Maybe you are just making it up as you go along

Ummm, let me think. It has to be the Decent Man.

[Gee]

It has everything to do with gender roles. It's called culture, and we get all out concepts of gender, and normative instructions from our culture. If we got them from our genes then we would all act the same, like squirrels - WE DON"T.

Chaz;

This is simply not true. We do not get all of our concepts of gender and normative instructions from culture. We get many of them from culture, but not all of them.

To understand how the aspects of life work, people need to stop thinking in absolutes. There are no absolutes in life, there are only influences. You are forever stating that life is always changing, and you are correct. The only constant is change. Bearing this in mind, it is easy to see that absolutes would fail in an ever changing environment, which is why influence from many different directions is what works. Influence is adaptable and can flex and flow with the changes.

So cultures and societies dictate a lot, but experiences dictate more, and genetics dictate also. It is a flux of these different influences that tells us who we are. imo

Gee

[reasonvemotion]

I am not a "beleiver" in Darwin or evolution - it is not a religion.

Perhaps you would liken it to Philosophy or better still fallacy.

[Gee]

The lie (emotional) that men are powerful and women are weak.

Weak is another word for the meaning powerless, which you have refuted in the case of women.

How else would one interpret this? Are you not suggesting that women are the stronger sex.

Reasonvemotion;

Let me clarify. Men are not more powerful than women. Women are not more powerful than men. To ask which is more powerful is a foolish question as both are powerless, and dead, without the other.

I know that there are some people, who actually believe in the sci-fi possibility that we can artificially reproduce without the other sex; therefore, eliminating the need for two sexes. These people are idiots. They have completely dismissed the possibility that there may be more to being male or female, than simple body parts.

Gee

[Gee]

You and I are acting just like male squirrels right now. We're competing, battling, testing each other's strength etc. Except that we aren't as bright as squirrels, because neither of us are going to get laid, no matter who wins this competitive squabble fest.

Felasco;

This gave me the best chuckle that I have had in a week. Thank you.

[reasonvemotion]

Let me clarify. Men are not more powerful than women. Women are not more powerful than men. To ask which is more powerful is a foolish question as both are powerless, and dead, without the other.

Baby boys are taught stoicism, "dont be a cry baby, be a man" and baby girls are taught to ask for help or when they can't cope when they are older, to say "I cant cope, I need help". This attitude from early childhood and through, tells a man his well being is not important while preparing him for the day (as you yourself said in an earlier post) when he has to fix a bayonet to a rifle, charge a hill under fire, once again reinforcing and teaching him of his own disposability. What this teaches a man is to put woman's needs before all else. This is essentially female self interest. There is a serious imbalance in society.

This thread is about internet porn, a perfect example of a longstanding natural order trying to re-establish itself. Recent culture has decided men should be something other than the classic male gender role, and so men in great numbers are migrating to an environment where they can still be men, at least inside of their heads.

This is the heart of the issue of pornography and it is interesting and disturbing together. Men don't get women's admiration any more, so they are more frequently fleeing to a impersonal outlet over a "real" outlet. The problem I see and have tried to express is, it is not a moral issue, but an issue of the fact that men's desires do not matter today.

[Gee]

Let me clarify. Men are not more powerful than women. Women are not more powerful than men. To ask which is more powerful is a foolish question as both are powerless, and dead, without the other.

Baby boys are taught stoicism, "dont be a cry baby, be a man"

This is true, and there are reasons for this. It is for his protection.

and baby girls are taught to ask for help or when they can't cope when they are older, to say "I cant cope, I need help".

I have never noted that this is true, so have no idea of it's worth as a concept, or its relevance to this point.

This attitude from early childhood and through, tells a man his well being is not important while preparing him for the day (as you yourself said in an earlier post) when he has to fix a bayonet to a rifle, charge a hill under fire, once again reinforcing and teaching him of his own disposability.

I don't see the logic in your argument. Going from "don't cry", to war, to making him believe he is disposable does not follow logically in my mind. Most young men go off to war thinking themselves noble and almost immortal, having no clue of the real consequences. It is the older men, who realize that the young man is disposable.

What this teaches a man is to put woman's needs before all else. This is essentially female self interest.

There is no logic here that I can follow. You will have to explain this.

There is a serious imbalance in society.

Yes. But it is not because boys don't cry or because girls might ask for help.

This thread is about internet porn, a perfect example of a longstanding natural order trying to re-establish itself. Recent culture has decided men should be something other than the classic male gender role, and so men in great numbers are migrating to an environment where they can still be men, at least inside of their heads.

This is the heart of the issue of pornography and it is interesting and disturbing together. Men don't get women's admiration any more, so they are more frequently fleeing to a impersonal outlet over a "real" outlet. The problem I see and have tried to express is, it is not a moral issue, but an issue of the fact that men's desires do not matter today.

I agree, but neither do women's. If a woman chooses to stay home, raise a bunch of kids, and let her husband run the world, she is looked down upon. Her husband goes to work and deals with her counterpart, the beautiful, well dressed, business woman--who looks like she has it all. Now the business woman might give hubby a fling, but she will never be committed to him. She is in a world of competition, so she has no time for hubbys, or children. In her thirties, she might have a child, but wants no husband, so the child will be raised by strangers--and everybody is isolated.

The result is that business woman takes too many drugs, drinks too much, has more strokes and heart attacks, and is lonely. The at home woman gets depressed takes Prozac, abuses and ignores her kids, and way too often lately, she kills her kids.

Men's and women's desires are universally ignored. The lies caused this ignorance. Only truth can right it. And the truth is this: Men and women are different, equal in worth, but different.

Gee

[Felasco]

This is the heart of the issue of pornography and it is interesting and disturbing together.

Yes, change is usually both interesting and disturbing. We should probably get used to it, as change is likely to accelerate.

Men don't get women's admiration any more, so they are more frequently fleeing to a impersonal outlet over a "real" outlet.

What I've been trying to discuss is that the boundary between real and unreal will become increasingly blurry. It's happening already.

As example, on some porn sites the ladies do regular webcam chats with their fans. So you can not only see her naked and fantasize etc, but you can talk with her, chit chat, joke around and the other social dances that usually go along with a real world sex life.

And this is just the beginning of this era. The imagery will come off the small 2D screen, and be projected like a hologram in to a 3D space around you. This is possible already I think, just not practical or affordable just yet.

Some video game like porn sites allow the user to control the avatar like characters on the screen.

The entire virtual world, including the sex part of it, will become ever more realistic and interactive, and it will become ever harder to draw a neat and tidy line between the real world and virtual world.

What we're building is an alternate reality where the user is in control of everything. It will be a profoundly different environment than the real world, where we constantly have to negotiate, compromise, and jump through all kinds of hoops to get a fraction of what we want, whether it be sex or other experiences.

Imagine a room in your house where you can experience anything you want. If you want to spend the day exploring the surface of Mars, while having sex with three Albanian lesbian blondes who are seven feet tall, just click here.

Anything you want. Coming soon.

[reasonvemotion]

It is not enough to conquer; one must know how to seduce
(Voltaire)

[Gee]

Let me clarify. Men are not more powerful than women. Women are not more powerful than men. To ask which is more powerful is a foolish question as both are powerless, and dead, without the other.

Baby boys are taught stoicism, "dont be a cry baby, be a man" and baby girls are taught to ask for help or when they can't cope when they are older, to say "I cant cope, I need help".

Reasonvemotion;

I have been thinking about this point all night. If you mean that boys are taught to not show weakness, and girls are taught to show weakness, then I agree. I believe that there are sound reasons for these instructions and the differences between what the sexes are taught, but it should be discussed in another forum.

If you want to start a topic in the gender forum, I will join it.

Gee

[Gee]

What I've been trying to discuss is that the boundary between real and unreal will become increasingly blurry. It's happening already.

Imagine a room in your house where you can experience anything you want. If you want to spend the day exploring the surface of Mars, while having sex with three Albanian lesbian blondes who are seven feet tall, just click here.

Anything you want. Coming soon.

Hi Felasco;

You are right about this being a thread about porn, not gender issues, so I am going to finally give you my thoughts on this.

In many of your posts, you have compared internet pornography to the Matrix, to wealthy people who can have whatever they want, and to sultans, lords, and kings. It is true that virtual reality can make someone believe that they have these kinds of rights. But you are missing something. Do you realize that this kind of indulgence requires at least a two class society?

Reality is what it is. A blurring of reality by virtual reality will be rectified as soon as someone is hungry, or needs clothes, or the toilet plugs up, or the house catches on fire, or we need medical care, or someone else decides to take our virtual reality away and we have no army to protect us. Rights and responsibilities can never be divided, they are two sides of the same coin, so trying to separate them is meaningless--or an invitation to chaos.

In the Matrix, the people had a right to a virtual world, but had the responsibility to give up their bodies. The robots had the right to the energy coming from those bodies, but had the responsibility to maintain those bodies. Rights and responsibilities in balance.

A king, noble, or sultan, has the right to do whatever they wish with their people, but they have the responsibility of maintaining those people and that kingdom. If they don't maintain it, then someone else or a civil uprising will take it from them. The people have a responsibility to the king, noble, or sultan, but they also have the right to be under his protection and rule. Rights and responsibilities in balance.

So how do you propose to maintain our reality? Who will plant the corn? pick up the garbage? run the businesses? make the clothes? etc., etc., etc. How do you expect to balance reality from virtual reality?

Gee

[Felasco]

In many of your posts, you have compared internet pornography to the Matrix, to wealthy people who can have whatever they want, and to sultans, lords, and kings.

I like the comparison to this forum, as it illustrates how we are already engaged in the virtual process.

Some guys want to have sex with hot blondes, but they don't know enough hot blondes in the real world, so they seek the experience in the virtual world. Some nerds want to have philosophical blowharding with other nerds, but they don't know enough nerds in the real world, so they seek the experience in the virtual world.

In both cases people are going to the virtual world to have experiences they can't find in the real world. We move from an arena where we have less control to an arena where we have more control. This reaching for ever more control over our experience will lead us to the next step....

Replacing the human beings with software entities.

As example, suppose you could click a button on this forum that would make all the other posters suddenly endlessly fascinated with whatever topic you wish to discuss today. To reach that level of control we'd have to replace the people posters with software posters.

At first this sounds unacceptable. But, what if the software posters could create a customized experience tailored to your interests, and it turned out to be the best forum experience you've ever had by far? Once you've tasted the perfect forum experience, how eager will you be to go back to a just kinda sorta ok forum experience? How long are you going to quibble about the posters not being real people?

To see the answer, just look at the popularity of porn. Millions of porn users have gotten past the fact that they're not actually having real world sex with real world people. The simulation is convincing enough.

So how do you propose to maintain our reality? Who will plant the corn? pick up the garbage? run the businesses? make the clothes? etc., etc., etc.

I see society working like it does now, except the entertainment devices offer a much more accurate simulation of the real world. So as example, instead of the hot blonde appearing on a flat two dimensional screen as she does today, sooner or later she will appear to be sitting in your lap.

People will still have to work, but less as the decades pass. The 40 hour work week will become the 20 hour work week eventually, as technology driven efficiencies almost eliminate the need for human workers, as has already happened in say, the agricultural sector. It used to take 90% of the population to raise our food, now it takes something like 3%.

[reasonvemotion]

Some guys want to have sex with hot blondes, but they don't know enough hot blondes in the real world, so they seek the experience in the virtual world. Some nerds want to have philosophical blowharding with other nerds, but they don't know enough nerds in the real world, so they seek the experience in the virtual world.

For every 1,000 hits on a philosophy forum there are 240,000 hits on pornography.

................ Millions of porn users have gotten past the fact that they're not actually having real world sex with real world people. The simulation is convincing enough.

Human sex is wonderfully diverse and wonderfully good for you. Pornography is not going to improve your sexual relationships. I don't dispute there is a place for pornography, as Felasco believes. You chat, you flirt, the woman holds nothing back, you are in control, no need to cajole, it is unbelievably licentious and dissipated and orgasms are wild and powerful. Turn off the web cam, shut down the computer.


Feeling is believing.....touch.

[Felasco]

For every 1,000 hits on a philosophy forum there are 240,000 hits on pornography.

Pretty good guess! Here's how to get the real numbers.

Google keeps track of how many searches there are for the phrases people type in to it's search engine. You can find the data here. https://adwords.google.com

Here are the number of monthly searches for porn forum and philosophy forum.

porn forum.................. 673,000
philosophy forum.......... 14,800

So, porn is approximately 45 times more popular than philosophy, according to this metric.

This of course explains why Rick Lewis now requires all members of this forum to post naked. Starting next month we'll also be required to turn on our webcams. I mention this now in case anybody needs to hurry up and go on a diet or something.

Pornography is not going to improve your sexual relationships.

This seems rather a sweeping statement.

I would counter that porn is like real sex, in that it's a huge phenomena involving a great many people having a wide variety of experiences. Like real sex, some of these experiences probably aren't that healthy, while others probably are. It's too big of a phenomena to slap any single judgment on it, imho.

I don't dispute there is a place for pornography, as Felasco believes.

I'm not arguing for or against porn, in the same way that it I wouldn't argue for or against the weather.

Porn is simply a fact of human life. It's probably always been with us in one form or another, and probably always will be. No amount of moralizing or government regulation etc will make it go away. The desires involved were created over millions of years, and are thus much stronger than any political fad of the moment.

It's not all that rational to spend a lot of time arguing for or against something none of us have the power to change. It seems more interesting to me to acknowledge the reality of porn, just as we acknowledge the good and bad of the weather, and then try to understand what porn teaches us about ourselves.

As I've tried to express, I think porn offers a glimpse in to where our entire civilization is heading, the increasing use of virtual reality to address human needs.

Some of these uses will be miraculous.

Think of the huge number of people all over the world living desperately lonely lives, because they can't grasp the complexities of real world human interaction.

Think of all the old people who nobody wants to talk to anymore. Virtual assistants will sit on the side of the bed in the nursing home, and listen to the old person's stories about the old days over and over and over and over again, day after day after day, without complaint. Real world people simply won't do this.

Think of all the people that nobody in the real world wants to have sex with, because they are too ugly or fat or stupid or whatever the objection is.

The simple truth is that in the real world, we routinely abandon huge numbers of people.

You chat, you flirt, the woman holds nothing back, you are in control, no need to cajole, it is unbelievably licentious and dissipated and orgasms are wild and powerful. Turn off the web cam, shut down the computer. Feeling is believing.....touch.

The point you seem to want to make in this thread is based upon the current pretty clear dividing line between the real world and the virtual world. The virtual world is on the screen, and the real world is everything else, simple.

I would propose that the clear dividing line between the real and virtual world is a temporary state of affairs, and that the relationship between the two environments will become increasingly complex and sophisticated. As example...

Let's imagine a couple who are routinely separated by say, military service. So they have virtual video sex over Skype. Technically, this is porn not real sex, but something is better than nothing, right?

Now let's upgrade Skype with new technology so that the imagery is liberated from the confines of the small screen, and now appears in the 3D space in front of you. While we're at it let's add a um, computer to biology interface, which I leave you to imagine on your own. Is this still porn, or is it now real sex?

And then the big leap, replacing some of the humans with realistic software simulations of humans, opening up a world of infinite availability and choice.

At some point the virtual world will so convincingly simulate the real world that the idea of a boundary between the two will begin to fall apart.

Is this forum the real world or the virtual world? I don't know your name or face or history or location anything about you in the real world. Is member reasonvemotion therefore fake? Should I stop talking with you and abandon this forum, even if it means I'm unable to find philosophical conversations in the real world?

See how complicated it is?

[chaz wyman]

For every 1,000 hits on a philosophy forum there are 240,000 hits on pornography.

Pretty good guess! Here's how to get the real numbers.

Google keeps track of how many searches there are for the phrases people type in to it's search engine. You can find the data here. https://adwords.google.com

Here are the number of monthly searches for porn forum and philosophy forum.

porn forum.................. 673,000
philosophy forum.......... 14,800

So, porn is approximately 45 times more popular than philosophy, according to this metric.

Wrong. You figures suggest that there are 45 times more searches on one phrase over another. The number does not compare "porn" and "philosophy". The real difference is probably in the millions.

The metric is rubbish. People who are interested in porn are not interested in talking about it on a Forum. Whereas philosophy is more to do with discussion.
You might compare "porn", with "philosophy" and see what you get.
I was surprised to find any hits on "porn Forum" at all.