Philosophy Now Forum

PeteJ wrote: ↑Sun Oct 11, 2020 11:43 am

Atla wrote: ↑Sun Oct 04, 2020 5:37 am Oh yeah, we can't ever be absolutely sure of the correctness of any worldview, not even of the direct experience based nondualism. Yes it's almost certainly correct and can't be falsified. But claiming that direct experience gives certainty is just another form of self-serving narcissistic oneupmanship.

Direct experience is an oxymoron.

Certain knowledge is 'knowledge-by-identity' for which the knower becomes one with its object. There is no other form of certain knowledge. I think even Aristotle says this somewhere. It is a fact of epistemology. Thus meditation takes us beyond experience to knowledge and truth.

A poem on youtube by Bernardo Kastrup begins 'All experiences are untrue'. This is what he means.

Basic stuff.

Atla wrote: ↑Sun Oct 11, 2020 6:10 pm What are you talking about? Certain knowledge is impossible for finite beings such as humans, that's basic stuff. It's a delusion that one can go beyond experience, because it doesn't have a beyond. Certain knowledge is a belief for psychologically weak, escapist narcissists, and no amount of meditation changes that.

PeteJ wrote: ↑Mon Oct 12, 2020 12:15 pm

Atla wrote: ↑Sun Oct 11, 2020 6:10 pm What are you talking about? Certain knowledge is impossible for finite beings such as humans, that's basic stuff. It's a delusion that one can go beyond experience, because it doesn't have a beyond. Certain knowledge is a belief for psychologically weak, escapist narcissists, and no amount of meditation changes that.

I'd suggest a study of epistemology. It's no use just waiving your arms around.

Atla wrote: ↑Mon Oct 12, 2020 5:25 pmBut if you can show that certain knowledge is possible, then do so.

PeteJ wrote: ↑Mon Oct 12, 2020 6:10 pm

Atla wrote: ↑Mon Oct 12, 2020 5:25 pmBut if you can show that certain knowledge is possible, then do so.

Annoyingly I can't find the quote, but I believe Aristotle notes somewhere that certain knowledge is identical with its object.

This would be my view. It the collapse of the knower-known distinction that allows certain knowledge. This might be called 'knowledge-by-identity' or knowledge-by being'. Such knowledge cannot be doubted, as Descartes realised.

This is why the mystics are always so confident. Your current view must be that they're not certain that what they say is true, But epistemology cannot prove this since they claim knowledge-by-identity.

I'd agree that all others forms of knowledge are suspect.

Atla wrote: ↑Mon Oct 12, 2020 6:54 pm It's pretty basic stuff that the collapse of the knower-known distinction has nothing to do with certain knowledge.

There is no longer the 'you' / the 'subject', that knows 'things', 'objects'. This dualistic illusion is transcended, and it is realized that it's all one and the same process really, and that this process is one with everything else.

But 'you' are still stuck with what's going on inside your head. 'You' have identity with non-certain knowledge.

PeteJ wrote: ↑Mon Oct 12, 2020 7:13 pm

Atla wrote: ↑Mon Oct 12, 2020 6:54 pm It's pretty basic stuff that the collapse of the knower-known distinction has nothing to do with certain knowledge.

There is no longer the 'you' / the 'subject', that knows 'things', 'objects'. This dualistic illusion is transcended, and it is realized that it's all one and the same process really, and that this process is one with everything else.

But 'you' are still stuck with what's going on inside your head. 'You' have identity with non-certain knowledge.

Ah. I see. You assume that what is 'inside' your head is not the world. My view is not naively-real in this way.

To understand what I'm saying you would have to understand something about mysticism, and I'm sure you don't want go there.

So let us leave it here. I'm quite confident you're not going to be able to falsify the Perennial philosophy and its knowladge claims,

Atla wrote: ↑Mon Oct 12, 2020 7:28 pm What is inside your head is a model of the world (representational consciousness), while also being one and the same with the world (the Absolute). Nondualism is correct, you just seem to be stuck in a popular but wrong version of it, which was and is promoted by psychologically weak, escapist narcissist mystics. I'm after the real deal.

PeteJ wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 9:58 am

Atla wrote: ↑Mon Oct 12, 2020 7:28 pm What is inside your head is a model of the world (representational consciousness), while also being one and the same with the world (the Absolute). Nondualism is correct, you just seem to be stuck in a popular but wrong version of it, which was and is promoted by psychologically weak, escapist narcissist mystics. I'm after the real deal.

I have no idea why you reach this conclusion or why you should insult me so. But hey ho.

seeds wrote: ↑Fri Oct 02, 2020 3:17 pm

uwot wrote: ↑Fri Oct 02, 2020 11:25 am

seeds wrote: ↑Wed Sep 30, 2020 8:55 pm


I see two grizzly bears high-fiving each other as they rip open the chest of a hunter who tried to shoot them, and then use his blood to paw-paint on the walls of a cave.

What do you see?
_______

What are you on seeds? Anyone can see it's two garden gnomes Morris dancing.

How dare you insult my belief? I spit on your Morris dancing garden gnomes. You are an infidel born of pigs.

However, I do admit that I may have been experiencing the delusion inducing effects of drinking half a bottle of Ensure when I saw the grizzly bears (I’ve been trying to cut back).
_______

uwot wrote: ↑Thu Jun 17, 2021 8:07 am

seeds wrote: ↑Fri Oct 02, 2020 3:17 pm

uwot wrote: ↑Fri Oct 02, 2020 11:25 am
What are you on seeds? Anyone can see it's two garden gnomes Morris dancing.

How dare you insult my belief? I spit on your Morris dancing garden gnomes. You are an infidel born of pigs.

However, I do admit that I may have been experiencing the delusion inducing effects of drinking half a bottle of Ensure when I saw the grizzly bears (I’ve been trying to cut back).
_______

Seeds me old mucker, I get a notification that you have edited the above. I stare at it for a bit - Nope, it's still two Morris dancing garden gnomes. Why gives?

bahman wrote: ↑Sat Sep 26, 2020 10:33 pm Everybody is himself/herself so they can say I am who I am. Interestingly this phrase doesn't give more than any obvious information. I am wondering why people consider this as a definition of God.

gaffo wrote: ↑Sat Jun 19, 2021 11:45 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Sat Sep 26, 2020 10:33 pm Everybody is himself/herself so they can say I am who I am. Interestingly this phrase doesn't give more than any obvious information. I am wondering why people consider this as a definition of God.

tetragrammaton

with an understanding of "knowing the true name" means you have power over. so YHWH refused to offer His True Name to Abraham when he asked it - knowing Abrham would have power over God had he known God True name. (Genesis is a Judaic work and true name theology is apt - as it is in the gospel of Mark where the "Legion say they know the True Name of Jesus - and Jesus commands they be silent - lest they say his name and have power over him).

"I am that I am" is a just a wishy washy way of saying - "I'm not going to give you my mane so you can overthrow me bubba.

i.e. YHWH is just saying "I'm the fucking BOSS - Abraham/chump - as long as i dont tell you my true name...........

Atla wrote: ↑Sun Oct 11, 2020 6:10 pm Certain knowledge is impossible for finite beings such as humans, ...