Hell

[Greatest I am]

I didn't know that my idea is along that line. What is your reason for scrapping this idea?

Because as indicated by fractals, it becomes a stupid and a never ending search for the next god above god.

Regards
DL

[Greatest I am]

The so called "evidence" apparently speaks for itself in regards to God not existing, because people are not able to provide any, even though they very strongly implied that there is actual evidence.



Do you also laugh when believers talk of no evidence, when their own definition of 'whatever' says that there is evidence?

By the way, it could be said that I just laugh at 'believers', full stop, and/or non stop. 'you', so called "greatest I am", appear to be a very strong 'believer', correct?

I was unaware that there was a specific biblical definition of faith that says there is no evidence. Could you link us to this, as this will come in very handy in showing and providing more and further proof.

After a have my laugh, I give them this link on the logical fallacy, to show that it is impossible to show a negative.

To prove that a god does not exist, one would have to be able to look at all places in the universe at a given time.

That pesky god moves and you have to catch him on the run.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XyA8cIzosFU

Negatives can never be proven. Only positive claims can be.

It is to the one who cries wolf, to show the track and scat.

It is not to the other to prove that the wolf was never there.

Regards
DL

If you are a 'believer', then you are still a believer.

By the way, there is NO negative nor positive here.

If you cannot understand the notion of a logical fallacy, and how a negative proposition can never be proven, then -----

Regards
DL

[Lacewing]

Are you aware that what you see and think or believe is and could well be just your very own reality?

Are you aware of this in regard to yourself?

So you claim "there is only one actual reality", yet you don't know what it is? Is that correct?

See, your words were asked from a presumptive perspective

You are projecting your own presumptive perspective onto me, Age. I wanted to be sure I was clear about what you were saying, before we explored and questioned further.

I answered your simple clarifying question with the very simple clarifying answer "Yes and no".

That's not clarifying. And it's absurd that you offer no further explanation.

See, if your were truly interested in understanding my responses and answers, then you would ask further caring questions.

You're not that interesting or compelling for someone to continually ask you to clarify.

I responded to gauge how much interest you really have and how open you really are.

According to your assumptions?

You're not sharing information freely here, you're stroking yourself and hiding, while denying that's what you're doing.

You're just another person making claims that simultaneously position himself distinctly and apart from all others. Such a delusional, transparent, and pathetically over-used routine on this forum, in theism, and in government. If you make claims and cannot explain or follow them up without anyone needing to prod you or continually demonstrate their receptiveness to you, and without resorting to your ridiculous and convoluted word games and avoidance, then THAT provides a credible view into what you're really about. You've said/shown nothing to demonstrate otherwise -- you've only claimed that you could if you wanted to.

Also, from the Truly OPEN perspective there are a few ways to look at where your questions were coming from.

There are always multiple ways of looking at everything. This was simply questioning your own words and claims. You are not being open or truthful in your responses, and you are conveniently projecting your idea/belief of misunderstanding onto people.

So, the direct answers I provide could be all to easily misconstrued and/or misunderstood.

That's your cover. Hide behind that. Pretend that you're providing direct answers of clarity when you're not, and then claim that people are "misunderstanding". You are managing a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Why not clarify and speak the truth generously for everyone who is reading? Do you think it's "too much" for them? Do you think they'll "misunderstand". On how glorious you must be!!! Or maybe how cowardly and phony? Making claims from the shadows and refusing to come out into the light with all of the other beings?

If that is what you see and believe is true, then that is what you will continue to see, and conclude.

I'm not that static. People and things can always evolve, and I'm always eager to interact with something more evolved...regardless of past experiences. So maybe you are speaking of how it is for you.

[bahman]

I didn't know that my idea is along that line. What is your reason for scrapping this idea?

Because as indicated by fractals, it becomes a stupid and a never ending search for the next god above god.

Regards
DL

I was told "We know everything now" a couple of months ago.

[Age]

After a have my laugh, I give them this link on the logical fallacy, to show that it is impossible to show a negative.

To prove that a god does not exist, one would have to be able to look at all places in the universe at a given time.

That pesky god moves and you have to catch him on the run.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XyA8cIzosFU

Negatives can never be proven. Only positive claims can be.

It is to the one who cries wolf, to show the track and scat.

It is not to the other to prove that the wolf was never there.

Regards
DL

If you are a 'believer', then you are still a believer.

By the way, there is NO negative nor positive here.

If you cannot understand the notion of a logical fallacy, and how a negative proposition can never be proven, then -----

Regards
DL

Then ... 'what' exactly? You never finished YOUR sentence. Could you not think of what would happen? Could you not finish that sentence? Do you want readers to ASSUME what you are thinking here? In case you are unaware; I do not like to ASSUME absolutely any thing at all.

I understand a notion of logical fallacy and how you are perceiving a negative proposition can never be proven. But, I just see and understand things differently than you do, and some times very differently.

When defined, the so called "negative" propositions can be very simply and very easily proven. But this is only when defined.

By the way, so called "positive" propositions can never be proven, when they are never defined. But so called "positive" propositions also, just like so called "negative" propositions, when defined can be and will be proven. So, defining the words in propositions means propositions can be proven and this goes for propositions being called "positive" or "negative".

For example 'God', 'Heaven', and 'hell' can be very easily proven either to exist or to not exist, when defined. But, as has already be proven over thousands of years, proving them to exist or to not exist is very difficult and very hard. That is; only when the words being used are not being defined. Once you know what the definition is, in relation to what these words actually mean and are referring to, then if they exist or not would be and is already KNOWN, as well.

But, if 'you' had already understood this, then 'you', human beings, would not still be arguing, disputing, bickering, fighting, and/or killing each other over whether 'God', 'Heaven', and/or 'hell' exist or not. If you understood what I have been saying, then you would have already worked out, thus seen and understood, what thee actual Truth of things is here.

By the way, if you all had already fully understood this, then all of you would already be living in 'Heaven' and not living in the 'hell' that you are now.

There is NO "positive" nor "negative" in relation to whether things exist or not. What there IS, however, is just thee Truth of things. And, if anyone wants to refer to these things existing as be the "positive proposition", then obviously what that one is alluding to is that these things existing is a POSITIVE.

Why would anyone who believes that God, Heaven, and/or hell do not exist and who believes the story of these things is just a made up lie or the result of faulty and illogical thinking/reasoning, then propose that these things existing is a "positive proposition"?

Why is it that if just because some thing is said to be existing, then this supposedly means, or falls into, a "positive" proposition category, to some people?

[Age]

Are you aware that what you see and think or believe is and could well be just your very own reality?

Are you aware of this in regard to yourself?

I am certainly aware of this. So, now I await, once more, for your answer.

Are you aware of this in regard to yourself?

So you claim "there is only one actual reality", yet you don't know what it is? Is that correct?

See, your words were asked from a presumptive perspective

You are projecting your own presumptive perspective onto me, Age.

Is that an absolute irrefutable Truth? Or, is this what you are just assuming and/or believing is what I am doing, from your own personal subjective truth?

If you did not ask that question from a presumptive perspective of what my answer would be or even could be, then you would not have appeared so startled nor annoyed at my honest answer. See, if that was not asked from the presuming perspective and was asked from the Truly OPEN perspective instead, then you would have just asked some thing similar to: What do you actually mean by "Yes" and "No"?

I wanted to be sure I was clear about what you were saying, before we explored and questioned further.

My answer is: 'Yes I KNOW what the one actual Reality IS', AND, 'No, I do not yet KNOW what the one actual Reality IS'.

Are you now sure you are clear about what I am saying? Or, do you still need further clarifying, before you explore and question further?

See, from my perspective, I think I might have to clarify this further for you, which, by the way, is a very simple and very easy thing to do. However, because I do not like to assume any thing at all. I am not sure if you need this clarified or not, and if you do, then I am not sure what exactly you need clarified. So, IF you need further clarification, so that you are sure you are clear about what I am saying, then just ask the further VERY specific clarifying questions, which you need the answers to, before you explore and question further.

But I suggest to FULLY understand another better just ALWAYS keep exploring, by asking further clarifying questions, until you do FULLY come to an understanding. See, the only True way to be sure that you are clear about what "another" is saying is to just keep asking further clarifying questions.

I only like to express what I KNOW in relation to the very questions you ask. I do not like to assume any thing at all. So, I wait patiently for those who want to explore, question, and understand, which are just signs of the True Nature of human beings, and of the True Philosopher. They are thee ones who are the True lovers of wisdom, and becoming wiser.

I answered your simple clarifying question with the very simple clarifying answer "Yes and no".

That's not clarifying.

I gave you my simply Honest clarifying answer.

And it's absurd that you offer no further explanation.

This might be absurd to you. But considering the amount of different ways of looking at that question, and the amount of possible meanings you may or many not have had behind that question, if I was to offer further explanation to ALL of the different multitude of things, then I could be accused of being absurd in my then very lengthy replies.

See, what I have found is either I write too much, or not enough. I can not please all of the people all of the time. So, what I suggest is far better for all concerned is if a person wants to KNOW some thing in particular or very specific, then just ask me a question in regards to the very particular or very specific thing that they want to discover, learn, and/or understand better or more. THEN, I will provide them with what they ACTUALLY REALLY WANT.

See, if your were truly interested in understanding my responses and answers, then you would ask further caring questions.

You're not that interesting or compelling for someone to continually ask you to clarify.

I am glad you wrote this, brought this up, and made this point very clear.

That is; a sad fact of humanity and the way that they grow up, in the days of when this is written, there are some who actually think and/or believe that some "others" are just not that worthy of being listened to, nor even considered.

Since this one was born, it was NEVER listened to, nor even ever considered as "one of the tribe", which, at that time (and this still does occur) was/is some thing that this one just "lived" with. But, the absolute BEAUTY of being an absolute 'nothing' in Life, was and is have the ability to look at and see things for how they REALLY ARE. It was from this perspective 'one' can and does discover and learn who and what those 'human being' things ARE, and, who and what 'I' Truly AM.

If 'I' am not that interesting nor compelling enough for any one to continually ask me to clarify my 'Self', then so be it. I am in no rush. As I have stipulated previously: I am here, in this forum, to learn how to communicate better so that I can be better and fully understood.

I never had the experience of learning how to communicate with human beings previously, being 'nothing' and as such of not being worthy of being listened to does not promote communicating skills at all. However, now I have the ability to learn from human beings how to communicate with them. I learn things in my way, and if I can not get any one to ask me clarifying questions and/or challenge me on what I say, then I will communicate with other readers when they SEE and UNDERSTAND how "others" communicated with 'me'.

I responded to gauge how much interest you really have and how open you really are.

According to your assumptions?

No, not necessarily so. This is because I ask enough clarifying questions until actual proof is provided. See, one with absolute interest and openness just never stop being Truly OPEN and Honest in answering clarifying questions and also in asking clarifying questions. See, learning, understanding, and becoming wiser only happens with enough interest and enough openness. Gauging how much interest one has and how open they are is an extremely simple and easy thing to gauge.

You're not sharing information freely here, you're stroking yourself and hiding, while denying that's what you're doing.

Have I denied I have not been sharing information freely here?

If I recall correctly I have already informed people that I write in specific ways to highlight things that are going on here. One of which is just how much people assume and/or believe that they already know the truth of things BEFORE they actually do. I show this by NOT sharing ALL information, so that people will SHOW the actual assumptions and/or beliefs that they have, and will freely expose, even when those assumptions and/or beliefs are clearly WRONG to begin with.

Also, yes I am hiding thy True Self, and have been for a while now. This is because I only reveal Thy Self to those who are Truly interested, and Truly OPEN, in discovering and learning 'Who thee 'I' Truly IS'.

So, I have NEVER denied that I am not sharing information nor not hiding thy Self at all. Unless, of course, you have some proof otherwise that you would like to bring forward and SHOW to all of us here?

By the way, as for "stroking myself", I am not absolutely clear what you mean here, but as far as I am aware just about ALL human beings over a particular age, in their life, "stroke themselves". But you might be meaning some thing else completely different here?

You're just another person making claims that simultaneously position himself distinctly and apart from all others.

Are you trying to suggest that people are not individuals, and which are not distinctly different? When I look at and observe human beings I see very distinctly different things. I see very distinctly different individual persons apart in what they each think, and see human bodies which are apart in the physical features. Although I do SEE how they are ALL united and the exact same in other ways.

Are the very different and distinctly different thoughts and views, within each very different and distinctly different human bodies, the very thing that positions each person differently and apart from all the other people and human beings?

If yes, then so what if just another person is making another claim, from their own personal other thoughts and views? What does it matter? This is one way to play the 'game of Life', correct?

But if no, to the prior question, then what does? Or, are you saying that all persons are not distinct and apart from each other?

Such a delusional, transparent, and pathetically over-used routine on this forum, in theism, and in government. If you make claims and cannot explain or follow them up without anyone needing to prod you or continually demonstrate their receptiveness to you, and without resorting to your ridiculous and convoluted word games and avoidance, then THAT provides a credible view into what you're really about. You've said/shown nothing to demonstrate otherwise -- you've only claimed that you could if you wanted to.

And, I still make this CLAIM. I can SHOW and PROVE ALL of what I have said and CLAIMED. So, if any one is Truly interested and Truly OPEN, like I am when I suggest to "others" to have the evidence and support for your claim BEFORE making the claim, and I also ask them to clarify and to provide evidence to support and prove their claims, I also would LOVE "others" to ask me as many clarifying questions as it takes to disprove my claim AND to challenge me as much as they can as it takes to either prove my claim WRONG, or to just SEE and UNDERSTAND what I have been saying AND meaning (alluding to). I am OPEN to this. That is; IF any one "else" is interested?

I purposely do NOT follow up my claims. I do this in order to HIGHLIGHT and SHOW just how diminished and/or completely lost and forgotten in adult human beings is the BEAUTY of INQUISITIVENESS, itself, and the WANTING of to discover, learn, and understand more, especially in the learning and understanding of "others", and ultimately of 'Who 'I' Truly am'.

Also, from the Truly OPEN perspective there are a few ways to look at where your questions were coming from.

There are always multiple ways of looking at everything.

So, if you already KNOW there are always multiple way of looking at everything, then you should not be surprised at all that my answer came with the following: See it all depends on what you actually mean by that question, response.

So, what did you actually mean by that question?

You use the 'you' word in your question. Are you are aware of the difference between the answer to the question Who am 'I'? to the question Who are 'you'? and how this can completely change the meaning of the question? This is just one of a multitude of different things, which can change the way I look at the question, and then thus answer it.

This was simply questioning your own words and claims.

And, as evidenced and clearly SEEN I simply answered your question in my OWN words.

Now, hopefully, you already KNOW what to do next. In case you do not: Simply question my OWN words and claims AGAIN. And, keep asking simple clarifying questions till you get thee answer in my own words. By the way, here is a handy hint; If you ask the clarifying question from the Truly OPEN, and not from a presuming perspective, then you will not be so alarmed nor annoyed with my responses/answers.

Obviously, if you are Truly OPEN, then you will just ask a further clarifying question, and keep doing this until you gain a True Understanding of things here.

You are not being open or truthful in your responses, and you are conveniently projecting your idea/belief of misunderstanding onto people.

You are very right here. In that i have an extremely bad habit of wanting to be misunderstood, and so i write in a way to continually cause and create a misunderstanding. One reason I do this, however, is to SHOW the importance of clarification, and looking at things from the Truly OPEN perspective. This is because once how IMPORTANT this is, then when these writings are looked back on, then what will be SEEN and UNDERSTOOD is how obviously True 'clarifying from the Truly OPEN perspective' was and IS important, in discovering, learning, and understanding our Real and True selves and Self, and thee actual Truth of EVERY thing else as well.

Hitherto, I have just not yet learned enough in communication skills in order to be able write completely OPEN, Truthful and Honest, without being prodded just yet, so that I am FULLY understood. But, what I think will be eventually found, which will be revealed, is HOW and WHY the misunderstanding of people came about in the beginning, and then HOW who and what we Truly ARE will be revealed and FULLY understood in the process.

I am not here in this forum to be FULLY understood. In fact, it could be argued I am here to be misunderstood, in order so that I can be and will be FULLY understood, "further down the track", as they say.

So, the direct answers I provide could be all to easily misconstrued and/or misunderstood.

That's your cover. Hide behind that. Pretend that you're providing direct answers of clarity when you're not, and then claim that people are "misunderstanding". You are managing a self-fulfilling prophecy.

I agree. For reasons given above, and other reasons as well.

Why not clarify and speak the truth generously for everyone who is reading?

In a sense I am. But that "everyone" is future readers who have already come to understand, what It IS that I have been alluding to here.

Some times it is easier and simpler to show how some things actually work, by just showing them how they work, instead of just telling them and explaining this to them. For example, I could explain that how the Mind and the brain work is that the brain works just like a computer in that it can only "look at" and "see" what has been fed into it. Therefore, if the brain or computer has not yet been fed information about, for example, of how the Mind and the brain work, then the brain can not 'look at' and 'see' this information. It obviously has not yet had any input fed into it to 'look at' and 'see'.

And, if I was to explain how the Mind is just always OPEN to 'looking at' and 'seeing' any thing at all, and then it uses the human brain to work out what is actually True, Right, and Correct, but any or none of this is being questioned and/or understood, THEN some times it is just easier and simpler to just show HOW the Mind and the brain actually work in conjunction with each other, and in opposition of each other sometimes, which is exactly what I am doing here in this forum.

Readers in the days of when this is written may not yet fully understand this. But, if what I have observed and are seeing is right, and comes to be understood, then future readers will see and understand that I have 'tried to' clarify and I have spoke the truth, but obviously not generously enough for ALL the readers in the times of when this is written.

See, if the readers in the times of when any thing is written has the absolute luxury and privilege to be able to converse with the writer, as quick as can be now when this is written than at any other time, then it is surely a waste to not just very simple and very straight forward clarifying questions, instead of the 'old days' where the writer had to always make the assumption of how the reader will read what is being written, and so could not actually be as Honest and as Truthful as people can be in these times.

For example if you want to KNOW what I actually meant by my "Yes" and "No" answer, then just simply ask: What do you mean by that? To me, if no one asks a clarifying question, then, to me, they Truly are not that interested in discovering, learning, and/or knowing any more. Obviously, if they were Truly interested in wanting to learning some thing, then they would ask the necessary question to find out and obtain that knowledge or information.

Do you think it's "too much" for them?

To me, it is NEVER "too much", although it might be "too much" at one time, and/or "too early" in their learning and understanding. See, some thing can only be learned and understood if it wants to be learned and understood. For example, I could SHOW very simply and very easily just HOW simple and easy it is to live in a Truly peaceful world with everyone, just like a 'Heaven'. But, if some one is not that interested in learning and understanding this, or just believes that this is not even possible, then, to them, this knowledge or information is just "too much, too early" for them. Although, it is REALLY not "too much" at all. It is knowledge or information just not in the right period period or days. It is just knowledge or information that will come about later on.

There is no rush for it anyway.

Do you think they'll "misunderstand".

If I do not learn how to communicate better, more succinctly, then yes I think they will misunderstand me or misconstrue what I am saying. But, this is just my fault alone, and not anyone "elses".

On how glorious you must be!!!

We always seem to end up back at your very WRONG misconstrued assumptions and/or beliefs.

You would just LOVE me to thinking the way that you are assuming and/or believing I am. Here is a suggestion just try and imagine the words I write are absolutely NOTHING like you are assuming they are meaning. Just imagine I am NOTHING like those that you have experienced previously.

Although I might write in some ways some times, to bring out those assumptions and beliefs within "others", for the reasons I have given above. But, what would happen if you just looked at what I wrote from a completely OPEN perspective? Would you then ask me questions like; Do you think you are glorious, and if so, then WHY? Instead of the constant assumptions and/or beliefs like what you wrote here.

Or maybe how cowardly and phony?

In regards to what exactly?

Making claims from the shadows and refusing to come out into the light with all of the other beings?

How quickly human beings forget.

Have you forgotten that you have made numerous claims about 'me', and when I asked you to provide the actual evidence to back up and support your claims, that it was you who has provided absolutely nothing? I even asked you to provide a list of the things that you assume and/or believe that you claim I assume and/or believe. Yet NOT ONE THING has been listed so far. I do not even get the respect to be able to have a say into the allegations made in regards to me, because nothing substantial is every provided to even look at.

Have you forgotten that when you make claims I do not to just expect you to hide in the shadows nor to just come out into the light with something? I specifically point out what you are not doing, and so ask the specific clarifying questions, or I hint as to what would help you to back up and support your claims. I do not just sit waiting and expecting "others" to do the very specific thing needed to back up their claim. I ask them if they could do some thing.

By the way, unlike your claims about 'me', "another," my claims are about 'me', myself. I have specifically claimed I can do some thing, and I have specifically claimed how that can be and will be achieved.

If that is what you see and believe is true, then that is what you will continue to see, and conclude.

I'm not that static. People and things can always evolve, and I'm always eager to interact with something more evolved...regardless of past experiences. So maybe you are speaking of how it is for you.

And maybe I am not.

The EVIDENCE for what is thee actual Truth can be clearly SEEN in our writings.

By the way, if any one is at all interested in WHY I answered,"Yes and no", then that is because: I KNOW what the One Reality IS, but I do not yet KNOW what that One Reality IS.

See, the One Reality IS what EVERY one agrees with. So, that is what the One Reality IS. But, 'that' what EVERY one agrees with I do not yet KNOW, for sure. So, what that One Reality actually IS, is yet to come to light, and be KNOWN, for sure.

Imagine if just the simple clarifying question: What do you mean by "Yes and no" here?, was asked earlier. Imagine how much unnecessary writings could have been done away with. But, just to make this absolutely CLEAR. I am still NOT assuming any one is even interested in understanding me and/or my writings, nor am I assuming what was meant by the question asked. For all I KNOW what I just clarified and spoke the truth more generously may have absolutely nothing at all to do with what you were assuming and/or believing what I was meaning, and so may in fact cause even more confusion to some.

But I will state this again: If any one is Truly interested in wanting to FULLY understanding what I am saying and am actually meaning, then by all means just ask me clarifying questions and/or challenge me on what I write and say. I KNOW I can back up and support what I say, claim, and write.

[Lacewing]

Are you aware that what you see and think or believe is and could well be just your very own reality?

Are you aware of this in regard to yourself?

I am certainly aware of this. So, now I await, once more, for your answer.

Of course: As I continually say, I think we all have our own realities. That does not, however, prevent us from noticing inconsistencies or deception in what other people might claim truth or reality is.

See, your words were asked from a presumptive perspective

You are projecting your own presumptive perspective onto me, Age.

If you did not ask that question from a presumptive perspective of what my answer would be or even could be, then you would not have appeared so startled nor annoyed at my honest answer.

I had NO idea what your answer would be. How did I appear startled and annoyed? I was not. Those are your assumptions. I simply pointed out the absurdity of your "yes and no" answer without any further explanation. It IS absurd in a discussion forum. And I can easily point out absurdity without getting fussed over it.

I suggest you notice how much you project.

See, if that was not asked from the presuming perspective and was asked from the Truly OPEN perspective instead, then you would have just asked some thing similar to: What do you actually mean by "Yes" and "No"?

Oh, is that how you would like me to do it? I don't think or talk the way you do. Why don't you freely offer your answers and explanations without asking people to ask you for them? No one else on this forum asks people to do that, even if they have other avoidance games they play. What might be the truth about people who do not answer freely and openly? Why else might they be here? Perhaps to make their own static claims that are somehow in service to themselves? It's natural to wonder about such behavior. It manifests in endless forms, and it is a frequent dance on these online forums, yet each claimant acts as if THEIRS should be so profound and believable! That's rather hilarious!

My answer is: 'Yes I KNOW what the one actual Reality IS', AND, 'No, I do not yet KNOW what the one actual Reality IS'.

Well, good for you.

It's unfortunate that you are unable to offer and provide more without someone investing in a needlessly convoluted back-and-forth with you. Someone would have to care enough about what you think... and I don't think most people will care about that. We all have our own views and pathways. As I said, you have not presented yours in enough of a compelling way to be explored -- and your dance is not collaborative enough.

I wait patiently for those who want to explore, question, and understand, which are just signs of the True Nature of human beings, and of the True Philosopher. They are thee ones who are the True lovers of wisdom, and becoming wiser.

Lots of your own ideas/conditions there.

Since this one was born, it was NEVER listened to, nor even ever considered as "one of the tribe", which, at that time (and this still does occur) was/is some thing that this one just "lived" with.

Many people have had isolating experiences, which I think shows that we are very much similar in the challenges we humans face, even if the challenges vary. I grew up feeling that I was on my own too. Many people probably still feel that way.

But, the absolute BEAUTY of being an absolute 'nothing' in Life, was and is have the ability to look at and see things for how they REALLY ARE.

I think it definitely can help a person expand their awareness in more ways, but these difficulties can leave lasting impressions and scars too, which STILL play a role in our thinking and views. Such as your own inaccurate assumptions about people, even though you deny that's what you're doing.

It was from this perspective 'one' can and does discover and learn who and what those 'human being' things ARE, and, who and what 'I' Truly AM.

Yeh, okay whatever. That's your trip. And it appears to me that there's some ego sneakily hiding within it, which rejects and refuses people such that there can be no collaboration.

From my perspective, there's nothing wrong with operating on a human level -- IT'S DIVINE TOO! All of it. Nothing is separate. That's my trip.

I am here, in this forum, to learn how to communicate better so that I can be better and fully understood.

I've been giving you valid feedback (as others have), but you still deny and ignore and justify your methods. So maybe that's not really why you're here. Maybe you're here to bask in your separateness. Maybe it's an exercise to reinforce your ideas. Therefore, you won't see or hear who other people really are, or what they are saying to you -- you will define them and all communication in the way that fits with the ideas you "know".

I learn things in my way, and if I can not get any one to ask me clarifying questions and/or challenge me on what I say, then I will communicate with other readers when they SEE and UNDERSTAND how "others" communicated with 'me'.

There are many ways to communicate. I've been as basic with you as anyone could be. But instead of responding generously, you string it along unnecessarily. So either you're playing games (whether you're aware of or not), or you're being too mentally convoluted to have a truly simple conversation with.

I responded to gauge how much interest you really have and how open you really are.

According to your assumptions?

I ask enough clarifying questions until actual proof is provided.

"Proof" according to you.

See, one with absolute interest and openness just never stop being Truly OPEN and Honest in answering clarifying questions and also in asking clarifying questions. See, learning, understanding, and becoming wiser only happens with enough interest and enough openness. Gauging how much interest one has and how open they are is an extremely simple and easy thing to gauge.

When someone plays games as you do by withholding themselves from the collaborative process -- measuring out small doses based on their assumptions -- then there is not true openness and it is no longer interesting. There is more going on, likely involving ego or some kind of self-protective dance.

how much people assume and/or believe that they already know the truth of things BEFORE they actually do. I show this by NOT sharing ALL information, so that people will SHOW the actual assumptions and/or beliefs that they have, and will freely expose, even when those assumptions and/or beliefs are clearly WRONG to begin with.

What you actually are showing are your own assumptions and beliefs, although you've come up with different words for them so that you can try to claim you don't have them. That's probably why you don't share more information, because your words will betray you. Then you'll claim that you're being misunderstood, but that excuse has gotten old too.

Also, yes I am hiding thy True Self, and have been for a while now. This is because I only reveal Thy Self to those who are Truly interested, and Truly OPEN, in discovering and learning 'Who thee 'I' Truly IS'.

Again, whatever. You've got a lot of ideas going on around that -- it's a reality that you operate from and within -- and it seems quite apparent that it excludes other people, regardless of whatever you claim your reasons are for doing so.

By the way, as for "stroking myself", I am not absolutely clear what you mean here, but as far as I am aware just about ALL human beings over a particular age, in their life, "stroke themselves". But you might be meaning some thing else completely different here?

Ah, so you do have something in common with other humans. I was referring to stroking whatever serves you about yourself for yourself: your ego, your ideas/views/beliefs, your self-glorifying fantasies, etc.

You're just another person making claims that simultaneously position himself distinctly and apart from all others.

Are you trying to suggest that people are not individuals, and which are not distinctly different? When I look at and observe human beings I see very distinctly different things. I see very distinctly different individual persons apart in what they each think, and see human bodies which are apart in the physical features. Although I do SEE how they are ALL united and the exact same in other ways.

We might be in individual bodies, exploring individual paths, but surely we are composed of the same stuff, and are part of and connected to the same vast network of natural capabilities. As humans, we make up lots of stories about ultimate truth beyond human limitation, and then some of us claim to uniquely see what that TRUTH is, and say that any who disagree are not seeing the one truth. There are countless variations of what the ONE TRUTH and/or REALITY is.

Why do people spend so much time defending THEIR NOTION, rather than discussing the implications of there being so MANY VARIATIONS?

Let's expand our awareness to discuss ALL OF IT, rather than stroking someone's ego over their pet notions.

if you are Truly OPEN, then you will just ask a further clarifying question, and keep doing this until you gain a True Understanding of things here.

It is not up to you to establish what is "Truly OPEN", skewed to your terms. And your "Understanding" is not some pinnacle to strive for. It serves you. You shouldn't expect other people to be eager to attain it. That would seem to suggest that you have something other people need, which they don't already utilize or have access to in their own way. That's the ego I see in your communications and expectations. You make claims and tell people they should keep asking you about them. Yet you've provided no incentive or reasoning that is compelling to do so. You're another voice of countless.

when these writings are looked back on, then what will be SEEN and UNDERSTOOD is how obviously True 'clarifying from the Truly OPEN perspective' was and IS important, in discovering, learning, and understanding our Real and True selves and Self, and thee actual Truth of EVERY thing else as well.

There may be no need to "look back". What you say above is a story you are telling yourself. If it comforts/entertains you, that's great. But I think it's a mistake for you to apply it to other beings who have instant access to all the same stuff -- whether or not they choose to acknowledge or use that at one time or another. You are putting yourself in a position of "knowing" what others "will know someday". That's ego. There is no reason whatsoever that you or anyone would be uniquely capable of seeing TRUTH that others should. Why wouldn't it be that others can and will when it suits their journey/experience? Why isn't that perfect? And when we die, none of these ideas matter any more, because all human limitations/definitions/needs cease in that moment.

Aren't there more useful and inclusive perspectives that acknowledge the value and equality (and yes, even perfection) of all, without a distorted backdrop of self-serving human stories?

future readers

I think future readers may laugh uproariously at all of this. It is already funny.

if you want to KNOW what I actually meant by my "Yes" and "No" answer, then just simply ask: What do you mean by that?

Endless clarifying questions to continually perpetuate and highlight misunderstanding so that you can stroke your skewed notions... oh how fun!

Yes, Age, I have given you examples of the things you said that were inconsistent. Saying I've never done so is NOT the truth. And this shows that your idea of truth is contorted to serve yourself -- which is not a credible demonstration of your ability to see or know actual truth or reality about anything.

[Age]

Are you aware of this in regard to yourself?

I am certainly aware of this. So, now I await, once more, for your answer.

Of course: As I continually say, I think we all have our own realities. That does not, however, prevent us from noticing inconsistencies or deception in what other people might claim truth or reality is.

Well I suggest if you notice 'perceived' inconsistencies or deceptions in what other people might claim, and especially in what I actually claim, then you bring those perceived inconsistencies and deceptions out into the open for all to SEE.

That way the "other" at least has an opportunity to either; agree with what you have noticed correctly, or, show you why your perception is wrong.

You are projecting your own presumptive perspective onto me, Age.

If you did not ask that question from a presumptive perspective of what my answer would be or even could be, then you would not have appeared so startled nor annoyed at my honest answer.

I had NO idea what your answer would be.

Of course you had no idea what my answer WOULD BE. But this does not stop people presuming things.

How did I appear startled and annoyed?

When you wrote: Age...all of your word games, where you apply certain words (such as beliefs and assumptions) to people OTHER THAN yourself, while making your claims and assumptions that reveal beliefs behind them, is too dishonest and delusional to interact with.

To me, you appeared so startled and so annoyed with my response that I have now become just "too dishonest and delusional" for you to now interact with me. That is how you appeared startled and annoyed.

I was not.

If you say so. I obviously can not prove otherwise. I just wish "others" would also recognize that what appears to them may not be the truth as well. All I can do is reveal those writings and explain why they appeared to me the way they did, which is exactly what I do.

Those are your assumptions.

They are NOT my assumptions. How many times do I have to tell you that the use of the very word 'appeared', PROVES that they were NOT assumptions? Obviously, what 'appears' to some one might not be the case at all, and I use the word 'appear' to SHOW that I am NOT assuming any thing at all. I am just sharing what 'appears' for me. So, that then the "other" has the ability to clarify what the actual case is.

Using the word 'appear', literally means I am not assuming some thing to be true but that I am just expressing how some thing APPEARS to me, which obviously could be WRONG or partly wrong.

You really NEED to read the words I use and write, and STOP making assumptions, BEFORE you gain absolutely clarity with me in regards to what I am actually saying and meaning. Otherwise, you will keep making these continually WRONG mistakes as you have been so far.

I simply pointed out the absurdity of your "yes and no" answer without any further explanation. It IS absurd in a discussion forum. And I can easily point out absurdity without getting fussed over it.

See this is where you are WRONG. What is TRUE is what i said APPEARED to you to be an absurdity. But ONLY through CLARIFICATION will the TRUTH become clear if it was an absurdity or not.

You just falling for the mistake of assuming that it was, without any doubt at all, an absurdity just goes to PROVE why one would be better off NEVER assuming any thing BEFORE actually clarity is obtained. In saying this, however, I agree absolutely that to you what I said would APPEAR an absurdity, to you.

But, as I say, some times I write in ways for a very specific reason.

I suggest you notice how much you project.

What do you mean when you use the word 'project' here?

By the way, I have suggested countless times to ask me clarifying questions before one starts assuming what I am actually meaning in what I write, but you have not yet taken up this suggestion.

Have you ever considered what you think, assume, and/or believe I am 'projecting' may not be the case at all? Have you ever considered that what 'APPEARS' to you be the case, is really not the case at all? Especially considering it is "others" writings, which you are making the assumptions about?

Have you ever considered that I write in a way that manipulates you to make very specific assumptions, but really if you had clarified FIRST, then you would come to learn and understand that I am NOT meaning what you are assuming I am meaning, or in this case, I am NOT really doing what you actually assume and/or believe that I am doing?

See, if that was not asked from the presuming perspective and was asked from the Truly OPEN perspective instead, then you would have just asked some thing similar to: What do you actually mean by "Yes" and "No"?

Oh, is that how you would like me to do it?

YES. I have been saying this from the very beginning of entering this philosophy board.

I have been saying ask me clarifying questions (and/or challenge me) in regards to what I say.

I have been saying please do not assume what I am saying and meaning and instead just keep asking me clarifying questions.

I don't think or talk the way you do.

Okay. This is fair enough. I KNOW I think and talk much different than most people do. I CERTAINLY look at and see things very differently than most people do.

By the way, that is perfectly fine that you do not think nor talk the way I do. But PLEASE STOP ASSUMING what I am saying and meaning BEFORE you gain absolute CLARITY.

If you do not want to ask me clarifying questions, then that is perfectly fine also. But, if you do not want to clarify with me what I am actually saying and meaning then I just request that you STOP making accusations about what I am saying and meaning. If, for example, I say some thing and it APPEARS absolutely absurd to you, then just say it APPEARS absurd and STOP saying things like: "It IS absurd in a discussion forum".

Unless you are the JUDGE and overriding RULER of all discussion forums and of ALL the ways people speak and interact with each other, then please refrain from showing your prejudiced and judgmental views in regards to what I say and write.

All I am asking is if you are not willing to clarify with me FIRST about what I actual mean in what I write, then please keep your assumptions about what you THINK I am saying to yourself.

Of course you are FREE to say what you just ASSUME I am saying and meaning, but please remember and be aware that what you ASSUME and/or what APPEARS to you may not be the case at all and so may not be true at all.

Also, I just ask nicely that if you are going to say what APPEARS to you in what I say or make an ASSUMPTION about what I am saying that you then just PROVIDE the ACTUAL words that I ACTUALLY used, and then explain WHY you made that ASSUMPTION that you did or explain WHY what I said APPEARED the way it did to you.

Why don't you freely offer your answers and explanations without asking people to ask you for them?

Because:

1. Words can get too easily misinterpreted.
2. Sentences can get too easily misconstrued.
3. Paragraphs can get too easily misunderstood.
4. So, the context of what is be said can get to easily taken out of context.
5. I prefer to show just how quickly human beings assume things BEFORE they KNOW the actual truth.
6. I prefer to show just how too easily human beings begin to assume the wrong things.
7. I am not in this forum to specifically provide answers nor explain myself.
8. I am in this forum to just learn how to communicate better, what it is that I want to communicate at a later date.
9. What I want to share is of no real importance anyway, so it can wait till it is ready to be shared.

By the way I freely offer my Honest answers, as can be proven throughout this forum. If, however, people want to assume what those answers actually mean, BEFORE clarifying with me, then so be it.

No one else on this forum asks people to do that, even if they have other avoidance games they play.

This may well be very true. It also might be true that no one else throughout human history asks people to do this. But I am.

Has any one ever considered that the reason WHY human beings are still looking for answers to these thousands of years old questions might be because people do not ask "others" to clarify what they are actually saying because people just tend to talk and EXPECT the "other" to KNOW what they are actually meaning in what they say?

Has anyone ever considered that the very reason why there is so much misunderstanding about each "other", that human beings still to this very day of when this is written still are unable to answer the question; 'Who am 'I'?' This question, one would think, should surely be the easiest and the first answer one could answer Honestly, properly and correctly?

The very reason WHY there is so much misunderstanding, confusion, fighting, and warring in the world might be because people just do NOT STOP to listen to each other FULLY, in order to be able to just understand the "other" FULLY. People obviously want to be HEARD by "others" rather than to just LISTEN to "others".

Understanding each other, and ultimately one's Self, comes from LISTENING, and NOT from speaking, and LISTENING and UNDERSTANDING comes from HEARING what one is saying and MEANING.

To be able to UNDERSTAND one FULLY this can only come from gaining absolute CLARITY from what THEY are meaning. This UNDERSTANDING certainly does NOT come from ASSUMING what they are meaning.

What might be the truth about people who do not answer freely and openly?

If "others" do not want to answer freely and openly, then WHY?

I suggest instead of JUDGING "others", and BEFORE making assumptions about them and "What might be the truth about people who do not answer freely and openly, then I find just asking each and every particular person, WHY?

See, absolutely EVERY person might have a different reason of WHY?

Trying to ascertain, through assuming, WHY ALL people do the same thing I have observed and found has not been at all successful for thousands of years now.

Why else might they be here?

Have you ever considered just asking them, instead of just wondering and assuming/guessing?

Perhaps to make their own static claims that are somehow in service to themselves?

Perhaps, or perhaps not.

You could assume absolutely any thing or even all things for the rest of your life. But you will NEVER KNOW if you NEVER just clarify with them. And, the best way to get, from them, the answer to a specific question is TO ASK THEM that very specific question.

And, I think you find that if they have absolutely NO fear of punishment and/or NO shame of being judged nor ridiculed, then they will provide you with the Truly OPEN and Honest answer that you are looking for.

But what i have found happens more often is that people just wonder and make assumptions within their own selves, which is clearly what you are doing and showing here now.

It's natural to wonder about such behavior.

Yes I totally agree.

Unfortunately though adult human beings generally do this wondering ONLY. They do not do the next and most important part, that is; if they truly want to obtain thee Truth, and that ASK the clarifying question.

The reason adults do not generally ask the questions is because of the unfortunate upbringings that they have had, which has transformed them into not be the truly inquisitive creatures that they started out being.

See, absolutely EVERY time a child is told, "Stop asking WHY?" and/or punished or ridiculed for when they provide a Truly OPEN and Honest answer, these children grow up to only 'wonder' but not ask questions, and to not be Truly OPEN and Honest themselves when posed with clarifying questions, which is exactly what you are doing and showing here. And, which can be evidenced and proven by ALL of adult human beings interactions with "others".

It manifests in endless forms, and it is a frequent dance on these online forums, yet each claimant acts as if THEIRS should be so profound and believable! That's rather hilarious!

Considering that THIS is EXACTLY what you are also doing and showing here now, then some are also finding this even more hilarious.

My answer is: 'Yes I KNOW what the one actual Reality IS', AND, 'No, I do not yet KNOW what the one actual Reality IS'.

Well, good for you.

Still NOT one sign at all of this supposed "natural to wonder" state.

So, WHY do you NOT wonder WHY I wrote that?

WHY are you NOT showing any sign of this 'naturally wondering' state?

It's unfortunate that you are unable to offer and provide more without someone investing in a needlessly convoluted back-and-forth with you.

Now this is what I find completely and absolutely HILARIOUS. This is; you will write all of this "needlessly convoluted back-and-forth stuff with me", yet will not just ask a very simple straight forward question like: What do you mean by "Yes and no"?

Instead of asking just an eight word question, you prefer to spend so much more time and effort writing all of this other "needlessly convoluted" stuff.

By the way, I am very ABLE to offer and provide more. But, I only prefer to, to those who show that they have at least some interest in learning and discovering what the "other" is actually saying and meaning.

Someone would have to care enough about what you think... and I don't think most people will care about that.

I do not really care either what you think most other people will care about or not. What you think most people will care about that or not is obviously only your assumption, and as most well thinking people KNOW what people assume could well be completely or partly WRONG.

I am only interested in and care about what you KNOW, and NOT what you assume.

Obviously, you do not care enough about what I think, so WHY would I offer up and provide more? Especially when a clarifying question is not asked?

We all have our own views and pathways.

Yes very true, And, as I have continually said; there is One pathway that takes us ALL to what IS Right in Life.

When people want to discover and learn what that way IS, then they would already KNOW what to do. That is; If they have been reading and taking notice of what I have been saying and meaning already.

But, obviously if people continue to ASSUME that I am saying and meaning this from some already held onto ASSUMPTION and/or BELIEF, then they will be completely and utterly WRONG.

As I said, you have not presented yours in enough of a compelling way to be explored -- and your dance is not collaborative enough.

I am presenting mine is MY WAY.

While you are FREE to present yours in YOUR WAY.

By the way MY WAY is NOT meant to be presented in a "compelling" way (to be explored). My way speaks for Itself.

One just needs to be Honest and OPEN enough to be able to SEE It and UNDERSTAND It.

I wait patiently for those who want to explore, question, and understand, which are just signs of the True Nature of human beings, and of the True Philosopher. They are thee ones who are the True lovers of wisdom, and becoming wiser.

Lots of your own ideas/conditions there.

Well obviously if these are not YOUR ideas/conditions, then they are MINE, alone, which, in a sense, speaks for Its Self.

Since this one was born, it was NEVER listened to, nor even ever considered as "one of the tribe", which, at that time (and this still does occur) was/is some thing that this one just "lived" with.

Many people have had isolating experiences, which I think shows that we are very much similar in the challenges we humans face, even if the challenges vary. I grew up feeling that I was on my own too. Many people probably still feel that way.

When you were feeling 'on your own' when you were young is when and why you were learning the ultimate "grown up or evolved" lessons in, and of, Life Itself.

But, the absolute BEAUTY of being an absolute 'nothing' in Life, was and is have the ability to look at and see things for how they REALLY ARE.

I think it definitely can help a person expand their awareness in more ways, but these difficulties can leave lasting impressions and scars too, which STILL play a role in our thinking and views.

But where was the "difficulty" part?

As a young child one just lives with things as they ARE. As one gets older one may wish for some thing else or some thing more, but still as a child one just lives with what they have only.

Such as your own inaccurate assumptions about people, even though you deny that's what you're doing.

How many times do I have to ask you; If you are going accuse me of any thing, then just provide the actual supposed "evidence", so that we can then LOOK AT IT, and then I have the ability to say some thing.

Now, you are accusing me of having my "own inaccurate assumptions about people" so now you SHOW us what some of these "inaccurate assumptions about people" ARE, and explain what is actually "accurate". If you are UNABLE to offer and provide these examples, even after countless times of asking you to, then we KNOW where the endlessness of this is coming from, and who is causing this.

It was from this perspective 'one' can and does discover and learn who and what those 'human being' things ARE, and, who and what 'I' Truly AM.

Yeh, okay whatever. That's your trip. And it appears to me that there's some ego sneakily hiding within it, which rejects and refuses people such that there can be no collaboration.

Well what 'appears' to you may well be just a complete and absolute illusion.

There is absolutely NO ego "sneakily hiding within this", which rejects and refuses people such that there can be no collaboration. In fact the very OPPOSITE is True.

Through collaboration it will be discovered that the 'I' in the question; 'Who am 'I'?' is the collective of ALL.

ONLY what is in 'agreement' with EVERY one is 'that' what makes up thee Truth, of which only thee 'I' is aware of and KNOWS. Thee 'I' is EVERY one as One.

So, what is 'appearing' to the one known as "lacewing" here is a direct result of that 'ego' seeing things that are CERTAINLY NOT in here.

From my perspective, there's nothing wrong with operating on a human level -- IT'S DIVINE TOO! All of it. Nothing is separate. That's my trip.

Okay.

And it is obviously the human level that all human beings work on and from. But, to me, thee collective of ALL human beings, that is what it IS that ALL agree with and accept is the DIVINE One, which is intimately thee United One, which works on and at the upper most level.

Obviously all human beings are separate entities, within separated human bodies, but it is what unites us ALL together as One, which is the DIVINE existing within the One Universal body. That is; thee Universe Itself.

I am here, in this forum, to learn how to communicate better so that I can be better and fully understood.

I've been giving you valid feedback (as others have), but you still deny and ignore and justify your methods.

What do you mean I 'deny' my methods? I do what I do, I do not 'deny' them.

Also, I do not 'deny' nor 'ignore' my methods. I just use my methods. I am allowed to. I do not have to bow down to, copy, nor follow "other's" methods.

I am FREE to justify my methods. 'Justifying' some thing is not bad in and of itself. Do you 'justify' your ways and methods?

My way and method is just different than "other's" ways and methods. What do you mean you have been giving me "valid feedback"?

Feedback is given to be taken or ignored. I have taken feedback, and then chosen which way and method to proceed. If "others" here in this forum do not like my way nor method, then that is really of no concern to me. The way "others" appear to want me to take on and do is just the way they do, and human beings have been doing for thousands of years now. I just see that a change is needed.

So maybe that's not really why you're here.

You speak on such vague terms some times. To you, what is not really why I am here?

What is the 'that' in relation to in your statement here?

And, what do you think or assume is the reason I am here? Also, is the word 'here' in relation to this forum only, or to some thing else?

Maybe you're here to bask in your separateness. Maybe it's an exercise to reinforce your ideas.

Once again, just a 'wonderment' fulfills inside you, but still NO comprehension nor understanding that to gain thee True answer, then the best thing to do would be to just simply ask a very specific simple clarifying question to the "other".

Therefore, you won't see or hear who other people really are, or what they are saying to you -- you will define them and all communication in the way that fits with the ideas you "know".

Let us see just how much you "know". So, who and/or what are 'you'?

Who and/or what are 'people' really?

In fact, who and/or what am 'I' really?

Have you ever considered that just assuming that I do not "know" these things, that just maybe I do KNOW, which could be verified through clarifying questions?

See, what happens all to frequently is because people do not yet "know" some things, therefore, to them, no one else could yet possible KNOW them.

I learn things in my way, and if I can not get any one to ask me clarifying questions and/or challenge me on what I say, then I will communicate with other readers when they SEE and UNDERSTAND how "others" communicated with 'me'.

There are many ways to communicate. I've been as basic with you as anyone could be. But instead of responding generously, you string it along unnecessarily. So either you're playing games (whether you're aware of or not), or you're being too mentally convoluted to have a truly simple conversation with.

What will be found and discovered is I could not be more simple than I have been.

IF you want to know some thing in regards to what I say, then just ask a clarifying question, to me, instead of assuming that I am saying and/or meaning some thing in particular.

This is ONE way to communicate, and this way is MY way.

What is your idea of 'basic'? Do you want me to be generous and express ALL of what I have to say?

I responded to gauge how much interest you really have and how open you really are.

According to your assumptions?

No. I gauge by the evidence and proof that you provide, which can be clearly seen by what you write, or more to the case what you do not write/ask.

Obviously, if a person does not ask another a clarifying question, then the former does not really have that much interest at all.

I ask enough clarifying questions until actual proof is provided.

"Proof" according to you.

And to any one else who wants to inquire into this.

Obviously, if a person does not clarify with another what they mean in what they say, then the former is just either assuming they already "know", are really not that interested, and/or not that open at all really.

See, one with absolute interest and openness just never stop being Truly OPEN and Honest in answering clarifying questions and also in asking clarifying questions. See, learning, understanding, and becoming wiser only happens with enough interest and enough openness. Gauging how much interest one has and how open they are is an extremely simple and easy thing to gauge.

When someone plays games as you do by withholding themselves from the collaborative process -- measuring out small doses based on their assumptions -- then there is not true openness and it is no longer interesting.

Okay if this what you think and/or believe is true, then fair enough.

To me, Life is a 'game'. 'Games' are played for FUN. I am playing this game, and having FUN.

Withholding thy 'Self' in the days of when this is written is NOTHING new to nor for Me. I only reveal thy Self to those who are OPEN and Honest enough.

As for your BELIEF that I have "assumptions" is still only based on your assumptions only, and not on any real facts nor evidence. Obviously, unless of course, you provide some real examples so that we can look and see if they are actual real facts and/or evidence, of if they are in fact just examples of your own making and imagination.

There is more going on, likely involving ego or some kind of self-protective dance.

You are really stuck on seeing in "others" this 'ego'.

As I say. some times people reflect a lot of what they do in "others".

Also, there is the 'self-protective' dance, from the personal and individual level, and the 'Self-protection' "dance", from and at the DIVINE level. Very frequently the two can and do confused for one another.

how much people assume and/or believe that they already know the truth of things BEFORE they actually do. I show this by NOT sharing ALL information, so that people will SHOW the actual assumptions and/or beliefs that they have, and will freely expose, even when those assumptions and/or beliefs are clearly WRONG to begin with.

What you actually are showing are your own assumptions and beliefs,

You keep making this CLAIM, but NEVER actually provide ANY evidence for this.

See, when you make an assumption and have a belief, then I will EXPOSE them, when asked for. Why will you NOT do this?

although you've come up with different words for them so that you can try to claim you don't have them.

When have I EVER come up for different words for 'assumptions' and/or 'beliefs'?

And, what were these other words that you are accusing me of coming up with?

That's probably why you don't share more information, because your words will betray you. Then you'll claim that you're being misunderstood, but that excuse has gotten old too.

And, could you be assuming things are happening here, which in all Honesty are so far off the mark now that it is becoming ridiculously funny? Or, are you not possible to stray off the mark?

Also, yes I am hiding thy True Self, and have been for a while now. This is because I only reveal Thy Self to those who are Truly interested, and Truly OPEN, in discovering and learning 'Who thee 'I' Truly IS'.

Again, whatever.

Again, a PRIME EXAMPLE of WHY most human beings are NOT able to answer the question: 'Who am 'I'?'. They are to so far self-indulgent in what they personally see and/or believe is true, right, and correct, that no matter what "another" one thinks or sees it is just "whatever" to them. This is a PRIME EXAMPLE of the self-indulgent 'ego' at work.

You've got a lot of ideas going on around that -- it's a reality that you operate from and within -- and it seems quite apparent that it excludes other people, regardless of whatever you claim your reasons are for doing so.

LOL So, I am the one asking "others" to ask me clarifying questions, and/or challenge me, on my views, but you just say "whatever" in regards to my views, yet, according to you, and your ways, it is me who "excludes" other people.

Can you see the absolute irony of this?

By the way, as for "stroking myself", I am not absolutely clear what you mean here, but as far as I am aware just about ALL human beings over a particular age, in their life, "stroke themselves". But you might be meaning some thing else completely different here?

Ah, so you do have something in common with other humans. I was referring to stroking whatever serves you about yourself for yourself: your ego, your ideas/views/beliefs, your self-glorifying fantasies, etc.[/quote]

Oh, and, by the way, do you have any actual idea what my ideas and views are exactly?

Also, in case you are unaware, I do not have any beliefs. Unless you can prove me WRONG, and if you could, then I am pretty sure that you would then provide the examples which could and would prove me WRONG.

You're just another person making claims that simultaneously position himself distinctly and apart from all others.

Are you trying to suggest that people are not individuals, and which are not distinctly different? When I look at and observe human beings I see very distinctly different things. I see very distinctly different individual persons apart in what they each think, and see human bodies which are apart in the physical features. Although I do SEE how they are ALL united and the exact same in other ways.

We might be in individual bodies, exploring individual paths, but surely we are composed of the same stuff, and are part of and connected to the same vast network of natural capabilities.

Well that is exactly what I just said.

As humans, we make up lots of stories about ultimate truth beyond human limitation, and then some of us claim to uniquely see what that TRUTH is, and say that any who disagree are not seeing the one truth.

Yes I agree that that is exactly what some of you human beings do do.

There are countless variations of what the ONE TRUTH and/or REALITY is.

I would say this differently.

I would say, There is only One Truth and/or Reality, but there may be many different 'perceptions' or different 'versions' of what this One Truth and/or Reality COULD BE. Obviously there is NOT, in and of itself, many different variations of One. But, just as obvious, is there can be many different assumptions or perceptions of what that One Truth and/or Reality COULD BE. But, REALLY and Honestly there can ONLY be One Truth and Reality.

I just say that this One Truth and/or Reality IS made up by 'that' what is in agreement with and by EVERY one.

Why this brings out such the responses that it does from, only you truly "know".

Either what I am saying is True, or it is WRONG or partly WRONG, and if it is the latter, then either just challenge me on what I say, show what thee actual Truth IS, or just clarify with me so that what I am saying and meaning is truly and fully understood. Very simple and easy really.

Why do people spend so much time defending THEIR NOTION, rather than discussing the implications of there being so MANY VARIATIONS?

I do not know why some people do this. Considering I am NOT doing this, then I can not answer this question for you.

I already KNOW and UNDERSTAND the implications of there being so many variations. I have explained how this leads all to frequently to confusion and misunderstanding, which then all to easily and simply lead to arguing, bickering, fighting, and eventually warring and killing of each other.

Let's expand our awareness to discuss ALL OF IT, rather than stroking someone's ego over their pet notions.

This expanding of awareness and ALL-OF-THIS, is what I would LOVE to discuss. But all too frequently some people see things in what I write, which in ALL Honesty are NOT even there.

I find trying to get people to STOP assuming I am saying and meaning things, when I am clearly NOT, is the hardest part in ALL-OF-THIS.

if you are Truly OPEN, then you will just ask a further clarifying question, and keep doing this until you gain a True Understanding of things here.

It is not up to you to establish what is "Truly OPEN", skewed to your terms.

You have certainly misconstrued this and skewed and distorted this in your own way.

The individual 'you' does establish what is 'Truly OPEN'. One is either Truly OPEN or they are NOT. There is NO 'Truly OPEN' in other terms than 'Truly OPEN'.

Seeing who is Truly OPEN and who is NOT is an extremely easy and simple thing to NOTICE and SEE.

And your "Understanding" is not some pinnacle to strive for. It serves you. You shouldn't expect other people to be eager to attain it.

When are you EVER going to let go of this belief of yours?

I certainly NEVER expect other people to be eager to attain it.

'Understanding' is not some thing I strive for, nor striven for. Understanding is just gained and/or obtained along the way.

That would seem to suggest that you have something other people need, which they don't already utilize or have access to in their own way.

And, you arrive at some conclusion, which is based off of some WRONG previous assumption of yours, I will suggest is not the best way to live one's life. But, in saying this, you are completely FREE to live your life absolutely anyway that you want to.

What 'seems' to you here is NOT what is actually occurring.

I certainly do NOT have any thing other people 'need'. People already use AND have access to UNDERSTANDING.

I have just suggested that to gain understanding, then this is best done by NOT already assuming and/or believing that one already knows or understands what is true, right, and/or correct.

That's the ego I see in your communications and expectations.

You have been seeing some "ego" in my communication from just about the outset of 'you' and 'I' communicating.

Also, I am NOT "expecting" any thing. This is another what you see in my communication, which is just NOT there.

You make claims and tell people they should keep asking you about them.

Have I EVER used the "should" word in relation to this?

If I have EVER used the "should" word in relation to this, then WHERE and WHEN?

Yet you've provided no incentive or reasoning that is compelling to do so. You're another voice of countless.

When will you listen and understand; I am not here in this forum to provide incentive nor reasoning to compel people to become interested. I am just in the process of learning what it takes to re-enliven that Truly 'inquisitive interest', which once thrived in ALL very young children.

Because older human beings have lost trust, and become so distrustful of each other, even the promise of living in absolute PEACE and HARMONY with one another and living a Truly happy, rich, and rewarding life does not even entice and bring about any interest in people. If that will not incentivize and compel people to listen, then what would?

when these writings are looked back on, then what will be SEEN and UNDERSTOOD is how obviously True 'clarifying from the Truly OPEN perspective' was and IS important, in discovering, learning, and understanding our Real and True selves and Self, and thee actual Truth of EVERY thing else as well.

There may be no need to "look back". What you say above is a story you are telling yourself. If it comforts/entertains you, that's great. But I think it's a mistake for you to apply it to other beings who have instant access to all the same stuff

Of course ALL people have instant access to ALL the same things. It is just people do not yet know HOW to access ALL of this stuff, correct?

Or, if you do know, then how do you access ALL the same stuff?

There is NO "need" to "look back". You appear to have missed the point I was saying. Just like EVERY generation "looks back" at past generations and can see WHERE and WHY what they were seeing and thinking was obviously WRONG, then so to will future generations do the same with this generation, of the times when this is being written. Most of the way human beings are looking and most of what they are seeing and thinking in the days when this is written is completely and utterly OBVIOUSLY WRONG, to me, which I KNOW future generations will also 'look back at' and laugh, as I do NOW.

-- whether or not they choose to acknowledge or use that at one time or another. You are putting yourself in a position of "knowing" what others "will know someday". That's ego.

And 'ego', from the perspective of 'I', thee DIVINE and united collective of ALL, has the absolute Right and privilege to be able to say 'I KNOW what "others" will also KNOW some day. This is because thee "others" are really just a part of 'I'.

You continual confuse this 'I', Ego, which has the Right to be very egotistical because of who and what 'I' am. When 'I' am being egotistical, then I am obviously only seeing and doing things for thy 'Self', which the reason that it is perfectly fine and okay for thee 'I' to be seeing and doing things only for 'I' is because 'I' am only seeing and doing things for EVERY one as One - Me.

This Ego, is NOT the individual personal 'self' human being ego, which only sees things and does things for that own individual human being.

There is no reason whatsoever that you or anyone would be uniquely capable of seeing TRUTH that others should.

Why did 'you' bring the "should" word into this?

Absolutely EVERY one is capable of seeing TRUTH. In fact absolutely EVERY new born human child is seeing TRUTH. This capability, however, just get unfortunately and sadly lost along the way. The reason that capability gets lost is because of the absolutely amazing way the brain stores knowledge an information fed into it. Sadly and unfortunately older human beings feed absolutely and utterly WRONG knowledge and information into the newly forming brains, which then creates those human beings, and people.

Why wouldn't it be that others can and will when it suits their journey/experience?

Of course it happens and will continue to happen this way.

Were you assuming I was saying and/or meaning some thing else?

Why isn't that perfect?

Have you never listened to me or heard me when I have said absolutely EVERY thing is in its PERFECT position HERE-NOW?

This means that absolutely EVERY thing IS (in) PERFECTION.

This IS perfect. I have NEVER meant any thing is NOT perfect.

See, human beings DOING WRONG is PERFECT. When human beings admit that they are DOING WRONG is PERFECT. When human beings CHANGE from DOING WRONG, and then only DO RIGHT, then this is PERFECT. See, it is ALL PERFECT.

Human beings HAVE TO do wrong, and change that behavior FOR, and BY, themselves in order so that they learn WHAT is RIGHT and WRONG, all by themselves, and, if not more importantly, WHY what is RIGHT IS RIGHT. They NEED to learn this ALL BY THEMSELVES so that FOREVER more human beings will only DO what IS RIGHT. So, that we ALL can live in True PEACE and HARMONY, for ever more.

Future generations WILL "look back" and SEE and THANK that generation that DID eventually become Truly Honest, and thus Truly OPEN, which then forged the RIGHT WAY for them.

And when we die, none of these ideas matter any more, because all human limitations/definitions/needs cease in that moment.

Now this is what a call a truly human being 'ego' in action.

That is; I do not care about "others" because "my life" is the only thing that matters.

Aren't there more useful and inclusive perspectives that acknowledge the value and equality (and yes, even perfection) of all, without a distorted backdrop of self-serving human stories?

If you ever become interested, then we could have a truly two-way peaceful and logically reasoned discussion, which when, and if, we do, then from both perspectives thee actual Truth of Life can become and will be revealed, or come to light.

Contrary to popular belief I do NOT have nor hold a self-serving human story.

I only have A story, which is Self-serving to ALL, as One.

future readers

I think future readers may laugh uproariously at all of this. It is already funny.

Yes I agree with you.

Each generation laughs at how long it took past generations to see thee actual Truth of things, which is even more humorous because the very young, in each individual human being, and in human beings collectively, was looking at and only SAW thee actual Truth of things from the outset. 'We', human beings, however, have along the way individually and collectively twisted and distorted thee One and only Truth of things, beyond recognition on most parts I might add if thee Truth be KNOWN.

if you want to KNOW what I actually meant by my "Yes" and "No" answer, then just simply ask: What do you mean by that?

Endless clarifying questions to continually perpetuate and highlight misunderstanding so that you can stroke your skewed notions... oh how fun!

It might be considered 'just as fun' as what you are doing here, which you call "fun" and like to 'dance' to?

Did you ever get around to making clear HOW your 'skewed notions' actually take place in thee actual Truth of things here?

Yes, Age, I have given you examples of the things you said that were inconsistent.

But, it appears that you certainly do not want to prove this by providing those examples again, correct? Nor does it appear that you would even like to provide a hint to what those examples were, correct?

Will you provide those examples of things, which you claim I say that were inconsistent?

Saying I've never done so is NOT the truth.

Some might even be now saying; You saying, "You have done so", may NOT be the truth, as well. And, an absolutely very simple and easy way to prove who is actually RIGHT is for you to just provide those examples "again". And/or say where you did it "last time".

But, if you do not prove yourself here, then readers will decide who is actually telling thee Truth and who is NOT here.

And this shows that your idea of truth is contorted to serve yourself -- which is not a credible demonstration of your ability to see or know actual truth or reality about anything.

Well considering how I have explained HOW you can very simply and very easily prove yourself, we will just have to wait and SEE what transpires.

I can prove thy 'Self', but absolutely EVERY thing we have written would have to be read all over AGAIN. Whereas, for you to prove your 'self' could be and would be so simple and so easy to do.

[Lacewing]

…

Wow... ...see, I got you talking!

Thanks for playing along. I don't have the desire to devote further energy to responding to your massive post of comments, questions, assumptions, and misunderstandings. Nor am I inclined to repeat things to you (and go searching for the examples of your inconsistencies that I've shown you before). We both expressed what we see and think. It's interesting and entertaining. I think this interaction was perfect. I wish you well, Age.

[Age]

…

Wow... ...see, I got you talking!

Thanks for playing along. I don't have the desire to devote further energy to responding to your massive post of comments, questions, assumptions, and misunderstandings.

Again you make claims of me supposedly having assumptions and misunderstandings, but if you do not provide them, then I am none the wiser in regards to what they are meant to be, to you, exactly. Obviously, there are no assumptions, because I am not assuming any thing at all here. As for any misunderstandings, well obviously I can not see what I am supposedly misunderstanding. So, only you alone "know" what my supposed "misunderstandings" are.

But if you do not reveal any thing, and just remain closed like you are now, then what you are alluding to will just remain hidden with 'you'.

Nor am I inclined to repeat things to you (and go searching for the examples of your inconsistencies that I've shown you before).

This is one way of you trying to get out of proving that what you claimed was thee Truth of things.

But this does NOT prove you were right at all. This just proves that what I said could be, in fact, far more True and Right.

We both expressed what we see and think. It's interesting and entertaining. I think this interaction was perfect. I wish you well, Age.

Did you think some of our other previous interactions were not perfect?

[Greatest I am]

I didn't know that my idea is along that line. What is your reason for scrapping this idea?

Because as indicated by fractals, it becomes a stupid and a never ending search for the next god above god.

Regards
DL

I was told "We know everything now" a couple of months ago.

I hear a lot of nonsense as well.

We can make better models now on most issues and know many things. I do not think there is any actual end to any possibility. Every answer just opens more questions.

Regards
DL

[Greatest I am]

If you are a 'believer', then you are still a believer.

By the way, there is NO negative nor positive here.

If you cannot understand the notion of a logical fallacy, and how a negative proposition can never be proven, then -----

Regards
DL

Then ... 'what' exactly? You never finished YOUR sentence. Could you not think of what would happen? Could you not finish that sentence? Do you want readers to ASSUME what you are thinking here? In case you are unaware; I do not like to ASSUME absolutely any thing at all.

I understand a notion of logical fallacy and how you are perceiving a negative proposition can never be proven. But, I just see and understand things differently than you do, and some times very differently.

When defined, the so called "negative" propositions can be very simply and very easily proven. But this is only when defined.

By the way, so called "positive" propositions can never be proven, when they are never defined. But so called "positive" propositions also, just like so called "negative" propositions, when defined can be and will be proven. So, defining the words in propositions means propositions can be proven and this goes for propositions being called "positive" or "negative".

For example 'God', 'Heaven', and 'hell' can be very easily proven either to exist or to not exist, when defined. But, as has already be proven over thousands of years, proving them to exist or to not exist is very difficult and very hard. That is; only when the words being used are not being defined. Once you know what the definition is, in relation to what these words actually mean and are referring to, then if they exist or not would be and is already KNOWN, as well.

But, if 'you' had already understood this, then 'you', human beings, would not still be arguing, disputing, bickering, fighting, and/or killing each other over whether 'God', 'Heaven', and/or 'hell' exist or not. If you understood what I have been saying, then you would have already worked out, thus seen and understood, what thee actual Truth of things is here.

By the way, if you all had already fully understood this, then all of you would already be living in 'Heaven' and not living in the 'hell' that you are now.

There is NO "positive" nor "negative" in relation to whether things exist or not. What there IS, however, is just thee Truth of things. And, if anyone wants to refer to these things existing as be the "positive proposition", then obviously what that one is alluding to is that these things existing is a POSITIVE.

Why would anyone who believes that God, Heaven, and/or hell do not exist and who believes the story of these things is just a made up lie or the result of faulty and illogical thinking/reasoning, then propose that these things existing is a "positive proposition"?

Why is it that if just because some thing is said to be existing, then this supposedly means, or falls into, a "positive" proposition category, to some people?

I give my address as the center of heaven.

Thanks for the post.

Regards
DL

[bahman]

Because as indicated by fractals, it becomes a stupid and a never ending search for the next god above god.

Regards
DL

I was told "We know everything now" a couple of months ago.

I hear a lot of nonsense as well.

We can make better models now on most issues and know many things. I do not think there is any actual end to any possibility. Every answer just opens more questions.

Regards
DL

So you think that knowledge is infinite? Do you have an argument for that?

[Greatest I am]

I was told "We know everything now" a couple of months ago.

I hear a lot of nonsense as well.

We can make better models now on most issues and know many things. I do not think there is any actual end to any possibility. Every answer just opens more questions.

Regards
DL

So you think that knowledge is infinite? Do you have an argument for that?

Infinite, no. For all I can know there may be an end to all studies.

I am hard pressed to think of any science that is not ongoing though.

The models we have encountered in every discipline or study seems to be ongoing.

Regards
DL

[bahman]

I hear a lot of nonsense as well.

We can make better models now on most issues and know many things. I do not think there is any actual end to any possibility. Every answer just opens more questions.

Regards
DL

So you think that knowledge is infinite? Do you have an argument for that?

Infinite, no. For all I can know there may be an end to all studies.

I am hard pressed to think of any science that is not ongoing though.

The models we have encountered in every discipline or study seems to be ongoing.

Regards
DL

So probably they know everything if they are old enough.