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Re: Why does evolution allow a trait which feels that we have free will?
Posted: Thu Dec 28, 2017 8:33 pm
by -1-
Henry Quirk, with regard to dominoes and falling or not falling on ice:
1. If you fall on ice, then if you set up the same circumstances, you will fall again. But if all circumstances are the same, a new circumstance can't be divorced: that you have experienced the event, and you are anticipating a fall. In the original instance you did not anticipate a fall.
So the same circumstances can't be set up; the experiment is not indicative of non-determinism.
Dominoes: Dominoes will stop falling if you intervene. Without your intervention the dominoes will continue falling.
Something made you stop the dominoes from falling. You must have had a reason (if it was a conscious decision, which you suggested it was) to stop the dominoes from falling. Maybe that conscious decision hinged on your determined decision to prove determinism wrong. Maybe not, and your conscious decision was dictated by some other reason. If you did it intentionally, then the intention must have had a reason, a cause if you like, and you did say you did it intentionally.
Re: Why does evolution allow a trait which feels that we have free will?
Posted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 2:02 am
by Dubious
-1- wrote: ↑Wed Dec 27, 2017 7:03 am
Dubious wrote: ↑Tue Dec 26, 2017 10:34 pm
In itself it's got nothing to do with evolution. It's simply an intelligence ploy. You might as well ask...
why do we feel we have a soul
why do we believe in god
why do we believe in resurrection or reincarnation
why do we believe in anything regarding life after death
why do we believe that consciousness has a special mandate
why do we believe in anything that's not proven.
-1- wrote: ↑Mon Dec 25, 2017 6:04 am
To sustain a parallel to the original post, we would require not asking "Why do we feel we have a soul?" etc, but "why has evolution helped us feel that we have a soul?"
What you say is true but the implication was that evolution created that degree of consciousness which resulted in the kind of intelligence humans normally possess making the idea of soul and all such speculations to be its direct consequence. I can't see anything in the processes of evolution that would cause us to feel that way, allow or disallow it, not for any explicit purpose anyways.
So... if I show you that such notions as soul, reincarnation, realizing our conscious, reflecting on the afterlife, etc., and such speculations are a direct consequence not only of human intellect, but other aspects that developed due to evolutionary forces... will you see them? I mean, if I take the trouble and come up with scenarios and pervasive enough scenarios that SHOW TO BE SEEN that evolutionary process helped man create and sustain these impressions, then will you see the point?
This is actually asking, "are you emotionally so committed to your opinion in this matter, that if you see counter-examples of your theory, then you still won't abandon your theory? or are you not so strongly committed to your opinion."
Depending on your answer I will show you how these notions actually helped survival of the individuals who possessed them better over the chances for survival of individuals who did not have them. I don't promise to show for them all, but only because that would become tedious work; I'll show you a few, and you can work out the rest yourself, if you so desire.
But I am not willing to fight another pointless convincing battle. Therefore I ask you to please agree first to the terms: logic rules, and if it means to change your convictions or even your values, you capitulate to logic nevertheless.
I have had enough trouble on this site due to not enforcing this last rule before engaging in a debate.
I'm a little surprised at your response. My "opinion" is usually based on something more substantive than a purely personal view. You seem to have me confused with Nick. Also having a zero level of concern whether humans turn into gods or morlocks or simply become extinct sometime during the current millennium, I don't hold any emotional opinions regarding them, their how's, wherefore's and everything else regarding them.
In short, there won't be any battles if we don't engage in the first place. I think you misunderstood what I actually meant. One thing is clear and obvious; their isn't a single thing about us that's not genetically based. Genes are us. But that wasn't the point. What I expressed were in terms of cultural evolution.
Re: Why does evolution allow a trait which feels that we have free will?
Posted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 2:08 am
by -1-
Dubious wrote: ↑Fri Dec 29, 2017 2:02 am
I'm a little surprised at your response. My "opinion" is usually based on something more substantive than a purely personal view. You seem to have me confused with Nick. Also having a zero level of concern whether humans turn into gods or morlocks or simply become extinct sometime during the current millennium, I don't hold any emotional opinions regarding them, their how's, wherefore's and everything else regarding them.
In short, there won't be any battles if we don't engage in the first place. I think you misunderstood what I actually meant. One thing is clear and obvious; their isn't a single thing about us that's not genetically based. Genes are us. But that wasn't the point.
You can consider me guilty as charged. I just decided to not take any chances this time. It's purely a "tired man's" move, nothing personal.
I lose energy (it gets regenerated) when I argue with dolts who don't listen to reason. I am not saying you are one, in fact, I'd be surprised if you acted doltish. But I decided to make sure that the rule of the day is only one, and that is reason. (And logic. But that would be two rules, and I have already committed to one rule, emotionally... I'm going to get into a bitter fight and name calling with myself.)
Re: Why does evolution allow a trait which feels that we have free will?
Posted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 3:13 am
by -1-
-1- wrote: ↑Fri Dec 29, 2017 2:08 amAlso having a zero level of concern whether humans turn into gods or morlocks
Interesting you brought it up.
Above my left knee, last night overnight I developed a blue sign that shows a shooting star. It is a near-perfect five-point star, and it has a tail like a comet.
If this happened to me in the middle ages I could be hanged, drowned and quartered, and in the 1960s I'd get laid so much that even the soles of my feet would burn of all the friction.
But now... nothing. CNN laughed in my face, do you realize, they asked, that outside of celebrity boob lookalike contests and speed-eating competitions at McDonalds in terms of Triple=decker dribble-drecker pickle driple cripple volumes, nobody watches any tv any more? And North Korea did not respond to my telegraph to Jong du kong praising hm f
Re: Why does evolution allow a trait which feels that we have free will?
Posted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 5:58 am
by -1-
I fell asleep while typing the above. My apologies.
Re: Why does evolution allow a trait which feels that we have free will?
Posted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 10:56 am
by Celebritydiscodave2
Dubious wrote: ↑Fri Dec 29, 2017 2:02 am
-1- wrote: ↑Wed Dec 27, 2017 7:03 am
Dubious wrote: ↑Tue Dec 26, 2017 10:34 pm
In itself it's got nothing to do with evolution. It's simply an intelligence ploy. You might as well ask...
why do we feel we have a soul
why do we believe in god
why do we believe in resurrection or reincarnation
why do we believe in anything regarding life after death
why do we believe that consciousness has a special mandate
why do we believe in anything that's not proven.
What you say is true but the implication was that evolution created that degree of consciousness which resulted in the kind of intelligence humans normally possess making the idea of soul and all such speculations to be its direct consequence. I can't see anything in the processes of evolution that would cause us to feel that way, allow or disallow it, not for any explicit purpose anyways.
So... if I show you that such notions as soul, reincarnation, realizing our conscious, reflecting on the afterlife, etc., and such speculations are a direct consequence not only of human intellect, but other aspects that developed due to evolutionary forces... will you see them? I mean, if I take the trouble and come up with scenarios and pervasive enough scenarios that SHOW TO BE SEEN that evolutionary process helped man create and sustain these impressions, then will you see the point?
This is actually asking, "are you emotionally so committed to your opinion in this matter, that if you see counter-examples of your theory, then you still won't abandon your theory? or are you not so strongly committed to your opinion."
Depending on your answer I will show you how these notions actually helped survival of the individuals who possessed them better over the chances for survival of individuals who did not have them. I don't promise to show for them all, but only because that would become tedious work; I'll show you a few, and you can work out the rest yourself, if you so desire.
But I am not willing to fight another pointless convincing battle. Therefore I ask you to please agree first to the terms: logic rules, and if it means to change your convictions or even your values, you capitulate to logic nevertheless.
I have had enough trouble on this site due to not enforcing this last rule before engaging in a debate.
I'm a little surprised at your response. My "opinion" is usually based on something more substantive than a purely personal view. You seem to have me confused with Nick. Also having a zero level of concern whether humans turn into gods or morlocks or simply become extinct sometime during the current millennium, I don't hold any emotional opinions regarding them, their how's, wherefore's and everything else regarding them.
In short, there won't be any battles if we don't engage in the first place. I think you misunderstood what I actually meant. One thing is clear and obvious; their isn't a single thing about us that's not genetically based. Genes are us. But that wasn't the point. What I expressed were in terms of cultural evolution.
It`s not why which we should be asking each other, it is understanding how humans function which we should know.
Posted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 4:01 pm
by henry quirk
"So you are not a materialist?"
Can't get much more 'materialist' than this...
'I', referring to me. is the on-going, discrete, organic event sitting at a terminal typing these words. I am comprised of chemicals and electricity, organized in such a way as to promote self (awareness)/identity/'I'ness.
...can you?
Posted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 4:07 pm
by henry quirk
"you set up the same circumstances"
Exactly! Spot on! Bingo!
I set up the circumstances
Not nature or overarching causality...I do it.
Re:
Posted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 2:50 pm
by bahman
henry quirk wrote: ↑Fri Dec 29, 2017 4:01 pm
"So you are not a materialist?"
Can't get much more 'materialist' than this...
'I', referring to me. is the on-going, discrete, organic event sitting at a terminal typing these words. I am comprised of chemicals and electricity, organized in such a way as to promote self (awareness)/identity/'I'ness.
...can you?
But how you could start a chain of causality if that is your description?
Re: Why does evolution allow a trait which feels that we have free will?
Posted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 3:23 pm
by Celebritydiscodave2
Whilst a decision cannot be made based around that instant of action, we can undergo modification of action as consequence to circumstance just a split second before.
Posted: Mon Jan 01, 2018 12:18 am
by henry quirk
"But how you could start a chain of causality if that is your description?"
Hell if I know.
I just know I bend existing chains and begin new ones.
The mechanics of it: I got no clue.
I know the world around me (and 'in' me) influences me mightily, but doesn't determine me.
I know, for example, my responses to you in this thread are informed by past conservations with folks on this subject; informed by my own assessments of myself and the world; informed by my real, on-going experience of choosing 'this' instead of 'that'. And I know I choose how to use these informings to craft responses (choosing the simple and direct instead of the complex; choosing honesty instead of snark; choosing to continue instead of give up).
How it all works, the underlying mechanisms of 'self' and agency are a mystery to me. Which, considering no one knows how the brain does what it does, is no big surprise.
Re: Why does evolution allow a trait which feels that we have free will?
Posted: Mon Jan 01, 2018 1:49 pm
by bahman
Celebritydiscodave2 wrote: ↑Sat Dec 30, 2017 3:23 pm
Whilst a decision cannot be made based around that instant of action, we can undergo modification of action as consequence to circumstance just a split second before.
I cannot understand you. Could you please elaborate?
Re:
Posted: Mon Jan 01, 2018 1:50 pm
by bahman
henry quirk wrote: ↑Mon Jan 01, 2018 12:18 am
"But how you could start a chain of causality if that is your description?"
Hell if I know.
I just know I bend existing chains and begin new ones.
The mechanics of it: I got no clue.
I know the world around me (and 'in' me) influences me mightily, but doesn't determine me.
I know, for example, my responses to you in this thread are informed by past conservations with folks on this subject; informed by my own assessments of myself and the world; informed by my real, on-going experience of choosing 'this' instead of 'that'. And I know I choose how to use these informings to craft responses (choosing the simple and direct instead of the complex; choosing honesty instead of snark; choosing to continue instead of give up).
How it all works, the underlying mechanisms of 'self' and agency are a mystery to me. Which, considering no one knows how the brain does what it does, is no big surprise.
I see.
Posted: Mon Jan 01, 2018 5:56 pm
by henry quirk
What do you see?
Re:
Posted: Mon Jan 01, 2018 6:27 pm
by bahman
henry quirk wrote: ↑Mon Jan 01, 2018 5:56 pm
What do you see?
You don't know. I don't know either.