Philosophy Now Forum

commonsense wrote: ↑Sat Nov 11, 2023 10:13 pm

henry quirk wrote: ↑Sat Jul 09, 2022 2:52 pm

none of the proposed "controls" ever deliver on their promises

But is that really the measure we wanna use, how well control works?

Does successful control of those who do, or would do, wrong justify controllin'' all those who don't, or wouldn't, do wrong?

Yes.

Slaver.

attofishpi wrote: ↑Sat Nov 11, 2023 10:25 pm

henry quirk wrote: ↑Sat Nov 11, 2023 3:35 pm

attofishpi wrote: ↑Sat Nov 11, 2023 4:16 amHenry feels that his (and everyone's) freedom to own guns is more important than protecting children from being massacred.

4A2FAED4-118F-4192-A6DF-359846BB0A47.jpeg

Wow. Just because you don't know someone you think that they are basically worthless. No brotherhood of man on your wishlist then.

Wow. Just to preserve yourself, like commonsense, you'll rob another of property. A brotherhood of man founded on leashes.

Slaver.

henry quirk wrote: ↑Sat Nov 11, 2023 11:43 pm

attofishpi wrote: ↑Sat Nov 11, 2023 10:25 pm

henry quirk wrote: ↑Sat Nov 11, 2023 3:35 pm

4A2FAED4-118F-4192-A6DF-359846BB0A47.jpeg

Wow. Just because you don't know someone you think that they are basically worthless. No brotherhood of man on your wishlist then.

Wow. Just to preserve yourself, like commonsense, you'll rob another of property. A brotherhood of man founded on leashes.

Slaver.

Nobody is being robbed if they're not given permission to own a thing in the first place.

attofishpi wrote: ↑Sat Nov 11, 2023 11:52 pm

henry quirk wrote: ↑Sat Nov 11, 2023 11:43 pm

attofishpi wrote: ↑Sat Nov 11, 2023 10:25 pm

Wow. Just because you don't know someone you think that they are basically worthless. No brotherhood of man on your wishlist then.

Wow. Just to preserve yourself, like commonsense, you'll rob another of property. A brotherhood of man founded on leashes.

Slaver.

Nobody is being robbed if they're not given permission to own a thing in the first place.

Ah, not a slaver...a slave, nice & domesticated.

henry quirk wrote: ↑Sun Nov 12, 2023 12:00 am

attofishpi wrote: ↑Sat Nov 11, 2023 11:52 pm

henry quirk wrote: ↑Sat Nov 11, 2023 11:43 pm

Wow. Just to preserve yourself, like commonsense, you'll rob another of property. A brotherhood of man founded on leashes.

Slaver.

Nobody is being robbed if they're not given permission to own a thing in the first place.

Ah, not a slaver...a slave, nice & domesticated.

Call me what you want Henry, I guess I am even a slave to my conscience but at least I don't have the blood of children on my hands because of my concept of 'freedom'.

attofishpi wrote: ↑Sun Nov 12, 2023 12:07 amI guess I am even a slave to my conscience

Nope. The State.

but at least I don't have the blood of children on my hands because of my concept of 'freedom'.

Uh, if my hands are bloody becuz I advocate for freedom, imagine the gallons of it you're drenched in advocating for tyranny.

henry quirk wrote: ↑Sun Nov 12, 2023 12:14 am

attofishpi wrote: ↑Sun Nov 12, 2023 12:07 amI guess I am even a slave to my conscience

Nope. The State.

Oh, OK - the State and my conscience.

Henry wrote:

atto wrote:but at least I don't have the blood of children on my hands because of my concept of 'freedom'.

Uh, if my hands are bloody becuz I advocate for freedom, imagine the gallons of it you're drenched in advocating for tyranny.

Yes, your hands are covered in the blood of children with more on the way. How am I an advocate for tyranny?

Uh, if my hands are bloody becuz I advocate for freedom, imagine the gallons of it you're drenched in advocating for tyranny.

attofishpi wrote: ↑Sun Nov 12, 2023 12:19 amYes, your hands are covered in the blood of children with more on the way.

Becuz I choose freedom.

Orwell nailed it.

How am I an advocate for tyranny?

Nobody is being robbed if they're not given permission to own a thing in the first place.

If you must be permitted, if you must seek permission, to exercise a natural right, you are being tyrannized.

If you support the idea of being permitted to exercise a natural right, you advocate for tyranny.

henry quirk wrote: ↑Sun Nov 12, 2023 12:30 am Uh, if my hands are bloody becuz I advocate for freedom, imagine the gallons of it you're drenched in advocating for tyranny.

attofishpi wrote: ↑Sun Nov 12, 2023 12:19 amYes, your hands are covered in the blood of children with more on the way.

Becuz I choose freedom.

Orwell nailed it.

Apart from the freedom for children and others to live free of fear.

henry quirk wrote:

atto wrote:How am I an advocate for tyranny?

Nobody is being robbed if they're not given permission to own a thing in the first place.

If you must be permitted, if you must seek permission, to exercise a natural right, you are being tyrannized.

If you support the idea of being permitted to exercise a natural right, you advocate for tyranny.

Tyranny:- government by a ruler or small group of people who have unlimited power over the people in their country or state and use it unfairly and cruelly:

What is being unfair or cruel about wanting to prevent child massacres?

henry quirk wrote: ↑Sat Nov 11, 2023 4:02 am

commonsense wrote: ↑Sat Nov 11, 2023 3:49 amIt isn’t a penalty. It’s a safety factor.

Yes, I know...

A penalty is years in prison.

commonsense wrote: ↑Sun Nov 12, 2023 2:00 am

henry quirk wrote: ↑Sat Nov 11, 2023 4:02 am

commonsense wrote: ↑Sat Nov 11, 2023 3:49 amIt isn’t a penalty. It’s a safety factor.

Yes, I know...

A penalty is years in prison.

Just think. If we take his guns away as a safety precaution, he'd probably grab a bazooka and start shooting at us "enslavers" in retaliation.

This is my rifle
This is my gun
This is for fighting
This is for fun

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f16XSB2cORg

*

Calling a gun a bazooka sounds like some kind of Freudian projection.
If you're aiming for precision, call it a weapon. The bazooka, that is.
Ah-ooo-gah!, which is a sound made under certain circumstances, sounds suspiciously like ... ba-zoo-kah!.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OcJis94_ikE



In that light of Freud, that would explain the intro to this tune.
Blue Swede - Hooked on a Feeling
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NrI-UBIB8Jk

henry quirk wrote: ↑Sun Nov 12, 2023 12:30 am Uh, if my hands are bloody becuz I advocate for freedom, imagine the gallons of it you're drenched in advocating for tyranny.

attofishpi wrote: ↑Sun Nov 12, 2023 12:19 amYes, your hands are covered in the blood of children with more on the way.

Becuz I choose freedom.

Orwell nailed it.

How am I an advocate for tyranny?

Nobody is being robbed if they're not given permission to own a thing in the first place.

If you must be permitted, if you must seek permission, to exercise a natural right, you are being tyrannized.

If you support the idea of being permitted to exercise a natural right, you advocate for tyranny.

Come off it. Isn't freedom of movement a "natural right"? Shouldn't people be able to roam the Green Earth wheresoever they will?

If so, by owning land (and putting up no trespassing signs) you are tyranizing your fellow humans.

Ownership exists only as it is regulated by law. You can claim to own a car, but if the law (and police, and your fellow humans) don't support your claim, that claim is meaningless. You can claim to own land, in which case your ownership does absolutely nothing except control other people vis a vis that land.

What you are really saying is not that preventing people from exercising their natural rights is tyranny (that's clearly not what you mean, given your support for property rights), but that preventing people from doing those things of which you approve is tyranny.

If (as is obvious) property rights are fiat rights, determined by law, then laws regulating them (e.g. gun control, property taxes,etc.) are included in the laws controlling ownership. You can complain, but you must use a different line of argument. The one you are using now is so blatantly incorrect as to be silly.

henry quirk wrote: ↑Sat Nov 11, 2023 3:19 am

commonsense wrote: ↑Sat Nov 11, 2023 2:55 amThen I must conclude that you are arguing in favor of every American’s legal right to own such property as a nuclear weapon.

Nope. I'm arguing for the natural right of any, every, person to own anything they can fairly transact for or create, including atom bombs.

How is your statement different from mine in meaning?

henry quirk wrote: ↑Sat Nov 11, 2023 3:30 am

commonsense wrote: ↑Sat Nov 11, 2023 3:25 amYou cannot deny your preference for every American to own a nuke in view of the circumstance that nukes do exist.

You're silly. Acknowledging a right to property, any property, is not synonymous with wanting folks to own a particular property.

Folks have the right to X is not the same as folks ought to have X.

Folks have the right to X is the same as all folks can have X. If they can have it, then why shouldn’t they have it if they want it and can afford to purchase it?