bahman wrote: ↑Thu Jun 16, 2022 8:20 pm
iambiguous wrote: ↑Thu Jun 16, 2022 5:11 pm
iambiguous wrote: ↑Wed Jun 15, 2022 10:34 pm
The truth about what, the origins of the universe -- of existence -- itself? And who is given the task of deciding what the least strange thing about that is? Why philosophers at all? What is their equivalent of the scientific method in establishing this truth?
bahman wrote: ↑Thu Jun 16, 2022 3:57 pm Science deals with the appearance which could be a mere illusion. Only the science that sits on a profound philosophical background can tell a part of the truth.
Okay, then let scientists who do have a profound philosophical background, using both the scientific method and the technical tools embedded in philosophy as a discipline provide us with 1] an argument pertaining to the origins of the universe, coupled with an argument pertaining to the origins of existence itself [if they are not one and the same] and 2] a demonstrable empirical proof backing that argument up.
Both of which are then backed up by a considerable portion of the scientific and the philosophical communities.
And, if it turns out that a God, the God is a part of it all, a considerable portion of the theological community as well.
Okay, you have the right to wait for others.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting that folks here cease and desist from offering up their own conjectures regarding these truly fascinating questions. That's what forums like this are for.
Instead, it is when I come across those who seem [to me] to project a certain measure of certainty about their own frame of mind...a confidence that reflects [again, to me] what I call an "objectivist" perspective...that I tend to interject. As though in regards to things like cosmogony, or moral and political issues, or discussions about God and religion, what they believe is true "in their head" is the same thing as demonstrating that it is in fact true for all rational human beings.
Thus...
Again, I am less interested [personally] in what we argue about God and religion and cosmogony [and morality] and more interested in what we can actually demonstrate to others is in fact true about them.
And, one way or another, the origin of the universe and/or of existence itself must be intertwined in the lives we live on this side of the grave and the fate of "I" on the other side. So, the closer we get to a broad consensus among the combined scientific/philosophical/theological communities, the closer we get [perhaps] to a teleological discussion: the meaning and the purpose of our lives in the context of "all there is".
bahman wrote: ↑Thu Jun 16, 2022 8:20 pmI don't think that you can find a meaning or purpose in life through, scientific, philosophical, or theological discussion.
Again, what one thinks about the meaning and the purpose of life on Earth -- the "human condition" -- is just not the same [to me] as providing hard evidence to demonstrate that what one thinks, others are obligated to think as well. If they wish to be thought of as a rational human being.
And, let's face it, for many being rational is the same thing as being moral. And that frame of mind, in my view, can be very, very dangerous. In, for example, communities where those who come to power are able to enforce their own beliefs on others.
iambiguous wrote: ↑Thu Jun 16, 2022 5:11 pm
All of which apparently is moot to you:
bahman wrote: ↑Thu Jun 16, 2022 3:57 pm Okay, so you could wait for the scientific community if you wish. I don't need it though.
From my frame of mind, that is the most revealing aspect of your argument so far.
bahman wrote: ↑Thu Jun 16, 2022 8:20 pmOk, then wait.
Alas, I have come to believe that I will almost certainly go to the grave without access to answers to those Big Questions that revolve around cosmogony and morality and religion.
Instead, all I can do is to warn others about the dangers of those authoritarian folks who seem hell-bent on insisting that they do have access to the answers.
Their own.
And then, depending on the circumstances, others had best espouse those answers too.
The rest being, among other things, history.