Einstein's Relativity

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Arising_uk
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Re: Einstein's Relativity

Post by Arising_uk »

Hi Eliza and welcome.

I think it will become interesting given those who've expressed an interest to participate.

My take is that you can post-away, but responses may be slow given those who've expressed an interest to participate, except me :) or is that :( ? :)

For myself,
I'm at Part 1.2 and getting the idea of a 'map' of a 'grid of names' that identifies each place upon a practically-rigid body, e.g. London. And I think I understand that this would not matter even if the body was uneven or curved(not that Einstein says this but it was something SGR mentioned I think). I think I've agreed with his idea of 'distance' and as such 'measurement' and so I agree that with such a 'map' we could also 'identify' any 'spot' above the 'map' by just saying the nameplace and how 'high' the spot is. Although, I have a visualization problem as if the body was uneven or curved then(SGR again) a 'perpendicular' distance from each name-place would not cover the available 'spots', i.e. there'd be 'holes' in the available 'spots above the 'map'?
My solution was to imagine, okay! then I'd have to an 'orientation' of the base of the 'distance', i.e. add enough of an 'angle' to 'pole' to allow for coverage, but then I got lost, as if you add an angle then from one spot you can identify all the 'spots' above the map? And I think this might be his point with the idea that instead of names we can be like Rene and use an X, Y axis 'map' to identify all the possible 'name-places'? Or something like this. Where I'm really stuck is in understanding 'three perpendicular bodies', as I can't understand why we just can't 'write' upon one and use the 'rod'? If that makes sense?
S G R
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Re: Einstein's Relativity

Post by S G R »

Sorry for my tardiness; I was wrong, I really do need sleep!
Arising_uk wrote:I have a visualization problem as if the body was uneven or curved then(SGR again) a 'perpendicular' distance from each name-place would not cover the available 'spots', i.e. there'd be 'holes' in the available 'spots above the 'map'?
I think I share this reservation about Einstein’s initial conditions. Whilst there wouldn’t actually be any ‘holes’, having a curved reference body means that the accuracy of the definition of a point with a perpendicular component is multiplied (or leveraged, for wont of a better term). This means that a small movement at the rigid body, reference level creates a larger movement in the perpendicular position. The magnitude of this movement is in proportion to the height being measured ie the perpendicular rods wave around a lot as they get longer if the reference body isn’t flat.

My reservation about all this is that Einstein seems to be trying to slip in the conclusions to his theory right at the start by makings some seemingly innocuous changes to Cartesian geometry (though in reality mixing up Cartesian coordinates with polar coordinates). It’s possible he is just trying to make things easier – I guess we will see.

I don’t know where everyone else is but I would say section II on coordinates seems straight forward and then we come to III and IV:

III points out an interesting fact that someone’s point of reference (train or embankment) changes the physical reality of what one sees!!!

Section IV points out that our traditional Galilean – Newtonian conception of physics uses the law of inertia to decide which frame of reference is the correct one ie the Earth spins and at the same time orbits the sun because if the Earth is stationary then the forces required to explain the motion of the sun and the stars just don’t stack up.

So that brings us to section V which seems to be saying that the traditional view has a lot going for it (I think?)
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Arising_uk
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Re: Einstein's Relativity

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S G R wrote:Sorry for my tardiness; I was wrong, I really do need sleep!
:lol: Club and welcome too springs to mind :)
S G R
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Re: Einstein's Relativity

Post by S G R »

Arising_uk wrote:
S G R wrote:Sorry for my tardiness; I was wrong, I really do need sleep!
:lol: Club and welcome too springs to mind :)
Eh?
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Arising_uk
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Re: Einstein's Relativity

Post by Arising_uk »

LMAO!

As a long-time ago parent of a baby.
p.s.
Hope its going well and all you didn't expect! :D
S G R
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Re: Einstein's Relativity

Post by S G R »

Arising_uk wrote:As a long-time ago parent of a baby.
I understand this but don't understand what club and welcome means??
Arising_uk wrote:Hope its going well and all you didn't expect! :D
No, still not with you, but yes it's going well :D

Sounds like it's midnight feed time
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Arising_uk
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Re: Einstein's Relativity

Post by Arising_uk »

S G R wrote:I understand this but don't understand what club and welcome means??
No worries, your brain will come back :)
No, still not with you, but yes it's going well :D
Good to hear, and the rest is for the future :)
Sounds like it's midnight feed time
Result! She gets the four-five o'clock! :lol: (okay, I might just be reliving stuff here :) )
S G R
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Re: Einstein's Relativity

Post by S G R »

:)
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Arising_uk
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Re: Einstein's Relativity

Post by Arising_uk »

You don't get much more relative than that! :)
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Re: Einstein's Relativity

Post by converge »

As requested by ArtisticSolution I figured I'd chime in on this topic. This is the first time I've read Einstein's own book and while I think he's a genius, he's not particularly good at stating things simply ;). Basically, the whole first few sections (1.1 - 1.6 and part of 1.7) are just his way of trying to get us to question why we think normal, everyday physics is obviously true and to get us to be a little more specific on what we mean when we say things like "distance" and "time". He's setting us up so he can then turn it all on its head and show that most of our preconceptions are wrong.

The first part is about Euclidean geometry and whether it's "true" and how it relates to the actual real world. "Euclidean geometry" is basically a fancy way of saying "common sense geometry". Euclidean space is what we usually think of when we think of space... it's this space that has three dimensions and things move around in it. When we think of a line on some graph paper, that's Euclidean geometry. Now, Euclidean geometry is "true" in the sense that it describes lines on graph paper. What Einstein is getting at though, is that we tend to mistake the fact that it's "true" as a mathematical abstraction doesn't mean it's "true" about things in the real world that look similar to the abstract things in geometry. Most people would look at a plank of wood and think that it is a rectangle (or rectangular solid if you want to be three-dimensional). There are many ways in which the plank of wood is like a rectangle, but it's not really the same, so just because there are "true" rules about how rectangles behave in geometry doesn't mean that the plank of wood has to follow those rules. He talks about how Euclidean geometry is "rigid", in other words, the squares on your graph paper don't move around or change into circles randomly, they are rigid, unchanging squares on a piece of paper. We tend to think that space in the real world is like space on the graph paper (after all, we invented geometry to try to explain the real world), but again, it doesn't necessarily have to be true. He's setting us up for the weirdness of special relativity later... that space in the real world is all relative, the "real world" graph paper is made up of weird squares that change shape and size depending on how you're moving.

The next few sections are similar, just trying to get us to think about what we mean when we think of time, or length, or speed, and to try and get specific about it, because that makes it easier to explain the weirdness later on. Part 5 and 6 is where he introduces us to actual "Relativity", though this isn't usually what people mean when they talk about it. The weird parts are "Special Relativity" and "General Relativity", which he covers later. But the basic concept of "Relativity" is pretty simple: Everything is relative. The easiest example is the one he uses: velocity. Imagine standing still and looking at a kid throwing a football east at 10 mph. You would say it's moving east at 10 mph. But now imagine you're on a train moving east at 5 mph. Now when you see the kid, even though from his perspective he's standing still, from your perspective, you're standing still on the train and he's moving west at 5 mph. He's moving 5 mph west "relative" to you and the train. When he throws the ball, the train is moving the same direction but slower, so the ball looks like it's only moving 5 mph east. It's moving 5 mph "relative" to you and the train. If the train's going east at 10 mph, and the kid throws the ball right as you get to him, the ball would follow along exactly with the train, it would look like it was hovering outside your window. It would be moving zero mph relative to you.

So the question is... who's actually moving and who's actually standing still? Common sense would say the boy on the ground is standing still and you on the train are moving. But is the boy actually not moving? The Earth is rotating at a crazy 1000 mph and rocketing around the sun at 66,000 mph. That certainly doesn't sound like standing still. Even though the boy feels like he's not moving, he's moving pretty fast relative to the sun. So is the sun standing still? Not really, the whole solar system is flying around the center of the galaxy. Is the center of the galaxy still? Not really, it's flying around too. The truth is that there is no "standing still". All motion is relative. We can only say that something is moving 60 mph relative to something else. Nothing is ever "just" moving 60 mph.

Make sense? That's the basic idea that everything else builds on. As he gets to in 1.7, though, there is one "special" exception to this rule.... light. And that's where things get weird. I'll get back to that later! For now, I need dinner. :)
artisticsolution
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Re: Einstein's Relativity

Post by artisticsolution »

Hi Converge,

Thanks for chiming in! I thought this was a very cool thread but my math dead mind could not sustain a dialogue enough to even know what I was saying. I did have the "feeling" that this is what Einstein was doing but couldn't prove it in any rational way. What really threw me off was the "math" language and all it's symbols. It might as well be pre Columbian hieroglyphics.

What I do understand is when he paints a picture for us. I can visualize relativity because I am an artist and that is how I taught myself to paint since I didn't understand math. I used relative spaces, distance, color, value, etc. in order to get around my mind and eyes deceiving me. People think that artists are magically gifted in the area of art...but that's not true. There is a optical illusion that goes on everyday in reality that artists wish to understand. Like philosophers...we seek knowledge and wisdom. To be fooled by appearances does us no good in our quest for truth. Furthermore, understanding what makes things appear one way to our eyes when in actuality they are another way...helps us understand how the manipulation is done and in that understanding we can go further. This is the same thing I think Einstein was doing on a much larger scale.

The only way I can explain it is how I was able to understand how computers worked. I was so scared of them when they first came out. I did not understand how I could "lose" all my information from the screen when I hit the wrong button. But then a friend of mine pointed out that my information was not "lost" but was hidden from my sight. When I realized that it was a matter of reason and not "magic" I began to calm down and lose my fear...which made me able to see a computer as I saw art. It was all about layers of information on top of other layers. It made sense to me that way.

I think Einstein was unique in this way, he was not only a scientist he was an artist. He could strip away the bullshit in order to see the reality of something. I am not so sure your average genius could do this without an artistic mind.

Anyway...would you explain special relativity?
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Re: Einstein's Relativity

Post by converge »

The next few chapters deal with special relativity. So, the main problem with the relativity of motion that I was talking about in my last post, and that he was talking about in the first part of the book, is that light seems to contradict it. We are taught that light moves at a constant speed, "c", which is about 300,000 km/sec. When we were first taught about this in school, we were taught that it was sort of the "universal speed limit", that it was as fast as anything could go. This is sort of true, but is kind of missing the point. Light in a vacuum always moves at speed c, never slower, or never faster. If we think of our "common sense" geometry and physics, what would this look like? Well, we could Imagine we're on a train that's moving at almost the speed of light. Then we turn on a flashlight. What happens? The "common sense" intuition might be that the light slowly oozes forwards out of the flashlight, so if the train was moving 2 mph slower than the speed of light, then from our perspective it would look like the light is moving slowly at 2 mph out of the flashlight. That's the "speed limit" intuition. It would also make sense if we imagine the guy outside the train standing still: if he looked at us turning the flashlight on, from his perspective the light would move exactly at "c", since he's standing still.

But that goes against what we just said, that there is no such thing as "standing still" on its own, every motion is relative. So when we say the speed limit is "c", we have to ask, speed limit relative to what? It turns out the answer is that it's the speed limit relative to anything, no matter how fast it's moving. What actually happens when we turn on the flashlight in that super fast train is that it looks, from our point of view on the train, just like any other time we turned on a flashlight. The light zooms away at "c". It doesn't slowly ooze out. But how is that possible? Doesn't that mean that for the boy standing still outside, it would appear as if the light were moving at "c" plus the speed of the train, breaking the speed limit? It turns out the answer is no, from his perspective, the light is also moving at "c" relative to him, and from his perspective, it does sort of look like it's oozing slowly out of the flashlight relative to you on the train. But how can these two contradictory sounding things be true? It's true because it turns out that lots of other things are relative too: space, time, and simultaneity are all just "relative" to something else as well. Contrary to our intuition and common sense, the distance between two things and the time between two events are relative. An hour for me might be 20 minutes for you. A mile for me might be three miles to you. If I say two things happened at the same exact time for me, they might have happened ten minutes apart for you. (Now you can see why so many people don't want to believe that special relativity is real! It makes you sound crazy! ;) )

Most of the math and physics of special relativity is sort of like an attempt to solve the riddle of the flashlight on the train... how can we make sense of the fact that the flashlight beam is moving at exactly "c" both from the point of view of the guy on the train and the guy standing still? Everything flows from that answer. Space and time and "simultaneity" all have to be adjusted in order to make it work out. Here's what actually happens:

First, in order to make it easier to visualize, let's imagine that "c" is a much lower number, since it's hard to think about things moving as fast as a flashlight beam. Let's say that instead of a super-fast train and a light beam, it's a slow-moving bus, and you're throwing a ball. There's a guy standing on the side of the road watching you. Let's say the bus is moving at 5 feet per second, and you throw the ball at 10 feet per second. The only thing that separates this from our earlier "common sense" scenario is that this time, the speed limit is 10 feet per second, and the ball has to appear to be moving at exactly 10 ft/sec both relative to you and to the guy on the street. How?

From the perspective of you on the bus: The world outside of your window appears to be moving backwards at 5 ft/sec while you are standing still, just like an ordinary bus ride. You throw the ball forward at 10 ft/sec relative to yourself, right as you line up with the guy standing outside. If the bus is 20 ft long, that means the ball needs to hit the front of the bus in 2 seconds. It works! Intuitively, you might be thinking that the total speed of the ball was "actually" 15 ft/sec since you know that you're "actually moving" and the guy outside is "standing still", but that's not the case. There is no such thing as standing still, and there is no universal "actual" space to measure against, it's all relative.

From the perspective of the guy on the street: The bus has to be moving 5 ft/sec relative to him, and the ball has to move 10 ft/sec relative to him, which means it has to look to him like the ball is only moving 5 ft/sec relative to you. If the bus is 20 ft long, the ball would then have to hit the front of the bus in 4 seconds. But the ball only took 2 seconds to hit the front of the bus for you, how can it take 4 seconds to hit the front of the bus for him? The answer is that from his perspective, the bus is actually shorter than 20 feet, and you are moving in slow motion. He sees you slowly throw the ball and everything inside your train is moving in slow motion, and it takes about 3 seconds to hit the front. In addition, you are horizontally squished, and the train isn't actually 20 ft long, it's shorter, say, 15 feet, so it works out that the ball hits the front in 3 seconds; that's the 5 mph relative to you that the guy on the street sees.

This is weird enough on its own, but it gets weirder. You'd think, if this were true, then the intuitive thought would be, "Well, if I'm moving in slow motion and I'm squished relative to him, then he must be moving in fast-forward and stretched out relative to me". But that's not the case. Since from your perspective, he's moving backwards and you're standing still, he also appears to be moving in slow motion and squished from your point of view. How can you both appear to be moving in slow motion relative to each other? The answer here is that "simultaneity" (the observation that two things happen at the same time) is also relative.

Let's say the guy outside decides to throw a red flag as soon as the ball hits the front of the train from his perspective. From his perspective, the red flag and the ball hitting the front of the train happen at the same time. From your perspective inside the train, he's moving in slow motion, so the ball hits the front of the train first, and then a few seconds later, he throws the red flag. There are a lot of other examples that show the weirdness of all this going on, but usually one of the first questions we think about is, well, what happens when I finally get off the train and go talk to the guy, how does everything sync up? Am I further in the future than he is, or vice versa? Special Relativity is actually pretty complicated when trying to figure out how things happen while you're changing speed, but luckily, General Relativity makes it a little simpler to figure out, plus it includes gravity as well, which is yet another wild card. That's the next section!
artisticsolution
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Re: Einstein's Relativity

Post by artisticsolution »

Thanks Converge,

I am grateful you are taking the time to explain this. I hope you don't mind me asking questions. Please don't let my questions throw you...some of them will make you think like you are wasting your breath...lol. It's just the way I learn by being blunt about what I don't know. This usually causes people who are teaching me to think I am not getting it...and it may be true...at the time...but eventually down the road...something clicks in and I get an understanding. I guess what I am saying is don't let me stop you from getting to the end...just keep going without me if you must...lol.
converge wrote: If we think of our "common sense" geometry and physics, what would this look like? Well, we could Imagine we're on a train that's moving at almost the speed of light. Then we turn on a flashlight. What happens? The "common sense" intuition might be that the light slowly oozes forwards out of the flashlight, so if the train was moving 2 mph slower than the speed of light, then from our perspective it would look like the light is moving slowly at 2 mph out of the flashlight. That's the "speed limit" intuition. It would also make sense if we imagine the guy outside the train standing still: if he looked at us turning the flashlight on, from his perspective the light would move exactly at "c", since he's standing still.
Okay, my "common sense intuition" has never been up to parr. To me it seems as...if we were on a train moving 2mph slower than the speed of light and turned on a flashlight then the flash "light" (not the "flashlight" ) would be moving almost twice the speed of light. The same way if we were on a people mover going 2mph and were also walking 2 mph at the same time...we would be moving 4 mph. but if we held a flashlight and turned it on then the light would be moving the speed of light + 4mph relative to the speed of us walking on the people mover . Also relative to the speed of us walking on the people mover on a spinning earth in a moving universe+ whatever else moves that we can't see but we can't know those other things. which would be a different relative figure/speed....right? I hope that made sense.

My question is....what if something got in the way of the light of the flashlight? Does a light bending around a surface make it slow down or stop? If it gets around the surface does it again reach it's maximum speed? Is there anything that can propel it faster?
converge wrote:Special Relativity is actually pretty complicated when trying to figure out how things happen while you're changing speed, but luckily, General Relativity makes it a little simpler to figure out, plus it includes gravity as well, which is yet another wild card. That's the next section!
Okay...I think I am with you so far. Could you explain the next section? What does gravity do to relativity?
converge
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Re: Einstein's Relativity

Post by converge »

artisticsolution wrote:Thanks Converge,

I am grateful you are taking the time to explain this. I hope you don't mind me asking questions. Please don't let my questions throw you...some of them will make you think like you are wasting your breath...lol. It's just the way I learn by being blunt about what I don't know. This usually causes people who are teaching me to think I am not getting it...and it may be true...at the time...but eventually down the road...something clicks in and I get an understanding. I guess what I am saying is don't let me stop you from getting to the end...just keep going without me if you must...lol.
No problem! I like talking about relativity, it's always been one of the things that fascinated me about physics. And I don't think you're alone... most people are VERY confused about relativity, and in my experience, the way it's taught in high school to most people isn't correct; most of the high school teachers don't really get it either. Even physics students (and some professors!) who memorize the math and can pass the tests don't always really "get it". I knew the math and passed the tests when I first learned it and then later in college, but I didn't really "get it" until I sat down and read a few books and articles and really tried to work it all out in my head.

Okay, my "common sense intuition" has never been up to parr. To me it seems as...if we were on a train moving 2mph slower than the speed of light and turned on a flashlight then the flash "light" (not the "flashlight" ) would be moving almost twice the speed of light. The same way if we were on a people mover going 2mph and were also walking 2 mph at the same time...we would be moving 4 mph. but if we held a flashlight and turned it on then the light would be moving the speed of light + 4mph relative to the speed of us walking on the people mover .
Right, that's exactly the way everything works in old-school classic physics. The problem with light is that it has a speed limit, and everything about special relativity revolves around that. It can't move faster than the speed of light relative to anyone. So, you're right that from your point of view, since it would look like it's moving "c" away from you while you're on the people mover, that you would intuitively think it was "actually" moving at c + 4 mph. The key is to try to stop thinking of "actual" anything, there is only "relative". From your point of view on the people mover, it moves away at c. You would intuitively think that that would make it appear to be moving at c + 4 to someone not on the people mover, but that's not what actually happens. From his point of view, it's still moving at c, and time around you is moving slightly slower than his, and you are ever so slightly squished in the direction of the people mover. When you shine the light on the people mover, it hits the wall at the other end slightly sooner than it hits the wall from the stationary person's point of view. That's because from your point of view, the wall is slightly closer to you (the room is squished in the direction of the mover), and from his point of view, the wall is further away, while you yourself are squished.

Also relative to the speed of us walking on the people mover on a spinning earth in a moving universe+ whatever else moves that we can't see but we can't know those other things. which would be a different relative figure/speed....right? I hope that made sense.
Yes, if someone believed themselves to be "standing still" in a spaceship while the earth moved past them (and really, who's moving and who's not is all relative), it would look to them that the light still moves exactly at "c", even though this is out of sync with what both you and the guy standing next to the mover experience.
My question is....what if something got in the way of the light of the flashlight? Does a light bending around a surface make it slow down or stop? If it gets around the surface does it again reach it's maximum speed? Is there anything that can propel it faster?
You can slow light down by putting stuff in the way. "c" is the speed of light in a vacuum, the speed of it in matter like air or water is slower. There is no way to get it to literally "move" faster than c, though there are a few ways that you "sort of" can... there is a thing called the Casimir Effect, and quantum teleportation, which produce effects that seem like they make photons "teleport" instantly across a gap and thus move faster than light, but what's actually going on is pretty complex and isn't really the same thing as "moving" through the gap. Those things are difficult to explain so I'm going to skip them ;)

However, it's important to still remember that these things are all relative. The light can't move faster than "c" from anyone's point of view, but you can still do things that make it seem like they're out of sync. Say you're going to leave Earth in a spaceship and fly to a planet that's one light year away. And your spaceship moves really close to the speed of light. From my point of view, it will take a year for you (and any flashlights you carry) to get there, and a year to get back. From your point of view though, once you start moving really fast, I'm moving so slow that I seem frozen in time, and the universe gets squished so much in the direction you're moving that suddenly the planet only appears to be a mile away, and from your point of view, you, and your flashlight, on or off, get there in five minutes, and then five minutes to get back. Even though the whole time, your flashlight beam always moved at "c" away from you, it would seem like "actually" it moved much much faster, since you know you got to the planet and back in five minutes. But it didn't; space and time just shrunk around you, you didn't outrun light. From my point of view, it still took a year for you and the flashlight both ways. You just appeared to be moving so slow you were almost frozen in place for that whole two years, and when you get back, you've only aged 10 minutes and I'm two years older.
Okay...I think I am with you so far. Could you explain the next section? What does gravity do to relativity?
I will try and get to that a little later. I'm supposed to be doing work right now ;)
artisticsolution
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Re: Einstein's Relativity

Post by artisticsolution »

converge wrote:I will try and get to that a little later. I'm supposed to be doing work right now ;)
Well, okay. I guess beggars can't be choosers. But please hurry back...the suspense is killing me!
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