Basic Human Rights

[gaffo]

The followin' stands out for me...

I do not think I own anything

Not even yourself? You don't belong to yourself?

I feel responsibility for myself... and what I create of myself. But I also feel part of a larger system, and as a product of that system. I don't give myself away, but I share. I'm not sure I "belong" to anything, really... I'm just a part. And I'm not sure what this "myself" actually is. I'm just experiencing through it.

I find stark questions helpful, here's a couple...

If you were raped, it would be wrong, yes?

Why?

If someone came to you, declared you his property, this would be wrong, yes?

Why?

there is an Israeli air to that.

ask the palistinians on this matter.

[gaffo]

only shows you do not understand evolution - you place a morality on it - i don't but belive its prodcts are moral.

No, I understand it. I don't believe it. That's quite different.

But it's also not particularly relevant, since I am not saying that evolution is moral. I'm saying it's totally amoral, and that applying it to other human beings (through a "survival of the fittest" ethic) is Immoral. And on that, most people, even evolutionists, (except Social Darwinists) tend to agree with me. And God certainly does, as He declares in the Bible. So I think you're vastly outvoted.

BTW my drunk best friend is getting batter after his girlfriend left him 3 months ago - seems to be coming to terms with it. still drinking but les suicidal....so i still have little hope, but he is moving in the right direction.

I'm glad to hear that. The drinking's going to seem to him like it's a "solution," but it's just making the problem worse. But when somebody's drinking, it's not to experience life, but to escape it. And that, too, is a form of suicide...just a slow, ineffective one.

Your friend needs a program. He won't get well by himself. That's not how addition works...but I guess I don't have to tell you that.

you are not explaining your view of evolution I explained mine - that animals die via it if they don't have the DNA-nature to care for thier sspecies - thus the social animal - man is only one of thousnads - ants are the untimate example - soldeir ants lying down their life to build a bride for other ants than in turn march for thier queen.

if ants lack the ssociel instinct for self sacrifice, tthere would be no ants today on earth - for the machine of evolution would have prevented ants from surviving to wht they are today.


----

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per my firend we have a mutual - who was a drunk and out of conrtol since 14 - trie dto kill himself at 214 - he's been sober for 35 yrs now - ahs called him several time bbut calls not returned - so ya know all about it as you do obviously.

[henry quirk]

Henry... I answered your question, and I don't see how this questioning changes anything. Could you please show the courtesy of responding to my comments directly instead of firing more questions at me?

I apologize. I asked a question -- Do you belong to yourself? -- and I saw no answer. I asked, as Age might say, clarifying questions as a follow up...I meant no disrespect.


Is there something I said above that you don't agree with?

You said...

I feel responsibility for myself... and what I create of myself. But I also feel part of a larger system, and as a product of that system. I don't give myself away, but I share. I'm not sure I "belong" to anything, really... I'm just a part. And I'm not sure what this "myself" actually is. I'm just experiencing through it.

...which is fine, and I have no opinion on any of it beyond saying it's fine. It, however, doesn't seem to answer my question, a question that seems pretty cut & dry (in the same way are you pregnant? is cut & dry...you are or you aren't).


Yes, I think it's wrong to rape anything... even an animal. And yes, if someone claimed that I was his property, he would be stupid and wrong. How does that equate with whether or not I own myself (as you say)?

Well, I think rape and slavery get to the root of the subject of ownness: I would say it's wrong to rape or enslave a person becuz a person belongs to him- or her-self. And I believe this is the case becuz this self-possession (ownness) is natural to a person, it's a function of being a person. There are those who say personhood is merely a status bestowed by a society, that ownness, in the same way, is merely status, and therefore rape and slavery are wrong only becuz folks say those acts are wrong (moral opinion) not becuz it's wrong, in itself, to rape or enslave a person (a moral fact).

Now, you say yes, if someone claimed that I was his property, he would be stupid and wrong. Good, we agree. What I'm uncertain of is: why do you see it as wrong? Is it wrong becuz the society you live in sez it's wrong, or is it wrong becuz, as a person, you belong to yourself?


Does a tiger own itself? Or is it simply wrong to abuse or claim to own other living things?

I don't think so becuz a tiger doesn't seem to be a person. It's *inhumane to mistreat animals, but -- as I see it -- morality is about what is permissible between and among persons and animals don't qualify. I'm certainly open to the idea of non-human persons but I haven't seen much evidence for it. The problem there is: what is a person? What is personhood? There doesn't seem to be much agreement on that with most folks defaulting to I can't tell you what it is, but I know it when I see it.




*a sign, perhaps, of diseased thinking/mental illness but not, as I reckon morality, a moral issue

[Immanuel Can]

you are not explaining your view of evolution I explained mine

It's not relevant...that's why.

Even if I were to concede that evolution was true (which, in regard to human beings particularly, as a Theist, I obviously do not), all it would mean is that there are no grounds for any rights at all. Period.

So in that case, a win for Evolutionism is a loss for everybody.

per my firend we have a mutual - who was a drunk and out of conrtol since 14 - trie dto kill himself at 214 - he's been sober for 35 yrs now - ahs called him several time bbut calls not returned - so ya know all about it as you do obviously.

I've got to ask...if life is so hard that one is either drunk or suicidal, who's winning? Why is this worldview of yours such a great thing, if all it does is make a person drunk, miserable and suicidal? Frankly, I'm not seeing the attraction there.

Where's the hope, the light, the prospect of good in your worldview? If it exists, I want to hear about that. If it does not, then what makes you so darned loyal to that worldview?

[RCSaunders]

So, what about children who are born into brainwashed systems?

Is that what your childhood was?

A story and a costume on a stage. Many people never experience anything else ...

Is that what your experience was?

If they aren't your experience, what difference does it make to your choices what other's experience or background was?

Every individual is different, and every individual's circumstances and background is different. It's not what others might or might not have experienced, but what you or I have experienced that we must deal with. I know men and women whose childhood experience provided almost nothing beyond survival, who not only endured deprivation but extreme cruelty, who nevertheless went on to make successful lives for themselves. Everything they were taught was wrong, and everything they experienced was suffering, but they choose to think and learn for themselves and do whatever it took to make themselves successful human beings.

I just finished reading a book by Dorothy Johnson, Some Went West, in which the true stories of several girls captured by Indian's in the early pioneer days (1800s) in America are recorded. Those girls were tortured, deprived, and taught nothing but superstitious Indian ways and language. Some were scalped and killed by the Indians. Some were eventually rescued, educated themselves and became successful as farmers, teachers, business women and college professors and lived to old age (80s) and had heaps of children, grand-children, and great grand-children. One who endured almost unbelievable hardships said when she was in her 80s, "I cannot imagine a better life," because she had made it herself.

Enjoy others, love and help them, because its your choice, otherwise its neither love or help, but a chore performed from a grudging sense of duty and obligation.

I agree.

Does that make sense to you?

Yes. Does what I said make sense to you?

Honestly, no, but I may not understand what your point really is. I really have no idea what being, "born into brainwashed systems," would be (unless you're talking about public school), for example. It seems to me, you are taking the exceptional examples of human experience and generalizing them, as though they were the common human experience.

People are killed and crippled or have their brains scrambled by freak accidents all the time, and others damage themselves with drugs, for example. They are the exceptions, however. I have no idea how someone suffering from such things can or ought to live, but however it is, it certainly does not pertain to human beings in general.

[gaffo]

you are not explaining your view of evolution I explained mine

It's not relevant...that's why.

Even if I were to concede that evolution was true (which, in regard to human beings particularly, as a Theist, I obviously do not), all it would mean is that there are no grounds for any rights at all. Period.

So in that case, a win for Evolutionism is a loss for everybody.

fair enough by me - the whole evolution - as well god no god - debates bore me.

I've got to ask...if life is so hard that one is either drunk or suicidal, who's winning? Why is this worldview of yours such a great thing, if all it does is make a person drunk, miserable and suicidal? Frankly, I'm not seeing the attraction there.

To whom are you asking - the answer prob depnds upon whom you are asking.

me? Pat - my worldview is generally optomistic, i have a great girlfriend who happen to be black while i'm a great guy that happnes to be white - we see each other as persons not color). MY personality is introspective and meloncoly - been that way since i was 3 - born that way - both ways - i found drinking made me happy when i first tarted at 15 yr of age - drank maybe 3 time a yar from 15-18 while my mom was not around. I've nevr had a "bad trip" wil alcohol - always happy juice from legal age of 21 to today many decades later i've drunk more than i sold buuld - but knowing held it off ) froma 20's to 40's i dank to drunkness 6-12 beers - twice a months - its now one a week so too much these last 10 yrs or so - i know thi. prob is it always makes me so fucking happy - euphoria - like the 2 times i tried coke - that shit wa so good i swore off it aftr the 2nd try)

so legalize pot - that shit sucks - make me paranoid and dumber than shit - zone out - can't talk at all, though the visuals are nice (you ge the same visuals with 1/2 hit of acid and without the paranoid or stupidity - so why all this bullshit of legalizing a crap drug that sucks in the experience? - fk legalize LSD and Coke! - ..seriously both give much better high - no don't legalize coke - i liked it too much - but LSD would be ok.tried it a coule of time.

You asking Bob - my drunk buddy - his worldview is les like mine - he has a loweer view of man and the wolrd in genral, fears event - he is more paranoid than me and has a lower view of mankind than i - but we share the same meloncoly and introversion - but when he drinks he gts mad and bacome a dick (where i become love and love everyone - talkative happy - talk to stranger who i in 5 min my best buddy - thats m --he is more like talks to a stanger and in 5 minutes thy are houting at each othr. Why the difernece bet him and me when drunk? no clue we are the same when sober - but opposties uner the influnece.

or you asking John - the now 58 yr old - former 14 yr old that slit his wrist? he's a nicee guy i've know for 23 yrs now - been actual friends for 14 yrs now - he is crazy - not to be flippant but he i. he is bipolar mostly manic was on lithium from early 20's - prior he was out of control from 14-23 and an alcholic - he has not had a drink in 38 yrs (more power to him!) - he's still crazy - but not as crazy as he would be (or more likely dead!) if not sober since 1988. He had to be taken off of liothium (wich mad im into a zombie anyway - les than a man IMO) - to something els - i don't ask what - not proper for me to ask - anyway now he is more manic than normal but more a man than he was when under lithium - so though he never shuts the fuck up and talks and talks - pressure talk - and never ever actually litens - i'm glad for him being off lithium, but he does make lousy company - neer shit the fuck up and very very non-self aware - he is literally an adolecent in a late middle age body. Of course that limit me and Bob's ability to really connect to the guy and call him a best friend - though he is a friend we've know forever - bob has know him for 29 yr in fact.


so to who were you asking about the world vieew again?

Where's the hope, the light, the prospect of good in your worldview? If it exists, I want to hear about that. If it does not, then what makes you so darned loyal to that worldview?

I love myself and so doing so love mankind and forgive them as i do myelf for any shortcommings.

and this world view to me is not bleak in the least - in fact it is the opposite.

[Lacewing]

You said...

I feel responsibility for myself... and what I create of myself. But I also feel part of a larger system, and as a product of that system. I don't give myself away, but I share. I'm not sure I "belong" to anything, really... I'm just a part. And I'm not sure what this "myself" actually is. I'm just experiencing through it.

...which is fine, and I have no opinion on any of it beyond saying it's fine. It, however, doesn't seem to answer my question, a question that seems pretty cut & dry (in the same way are you pregnant? is cut & dry...you are or you aren't).

So you are wanting a yes or a no answer to your question, correct? And that's only possible if I think in your terms, which I usually don't. My answer was this: I'm not sure I "belong" to anything, really... I'm just a part. So that's like a "no" on the idea of "belonging", but there's more to it. I said "I'm not sure what this "myself" actually is", which tells you that I don't think about myself the way you think about yourself, right? So how can I answer just yes or no to a question that asks "Do I belong to myself" when I don't think in those terms?

Now, you say yes, if someone claimed that I was his property, he would be stupid and wrong. Good, we agree. What I'm uncertain of is: why do you see it as wrong? Is it wrong becuz the society you live in sez it's wrong, or is it wrong becuz, as a person, you belong to yourself?

Neither. I don't care what society says... and no, it's not because I'm a person who "belongs to myself". It seems wrong to me (as I said) to rape anything... even an animal. Again, you want an answer as if I think the way you do. I'm doing my best to play along even though I think differently.

as I see it -- morality is about what is permissible between and among persons and animals don't qualify.

Okay. That's a difference for us. I think animals have awareness... maybe not in the way of humans... but I don't think humans are necessarily better. Raping an animal would be like raping a baby: it doesn't understand and it can't fight back, but it is an awful thing to do to another form of life. That's how it seems to me. You may think differently.

[RCSaunders]

There is no such thing as rights!

This is like saying there is no such thing as laws, customs, rites, norms.
You might as well go further and say there is no such thing as ideas.
Not much of a starter on a philosophy website

Of course the words laws, customs, rites, norms are used. So are God, creation, emergence, and realism (in the Platonic sense).

In the case of "rights," my point is that everything the word is supposed to identify does not exist, and is, at best, nothing but wishful thinking.

I answered the question for commensense here.

I don't expect anyone to agree with it. Too many people have a vested interest (or at least a psychological need) in believing they have a, "right," to what they have not earned or produced by their own effort believing the world, society, the government, or God owes it to them, just because they were born.

[gaffo]

as I see it -- morality is about what is permissible between and among persons and animals don't qualify.

Okay. That's a difference for us. I think animals have awareness... maybe not in the way of humans... but I don't think humans are necessarily better. Raping an animal would be like raping a baby: it doesn't understand and it can't fight back, but it is an awful thing to do to another form of life. That's how it seems to me. You may think differently.

agreed - i hate the whole "there is man, then animals" - no, there are animals and man is one of the animal.

and he is ONE if the animals on top - but he may not be the top animal, Doplhins have big brians and more convolution - so stop being a thug pride filled ape, man, be humble and do not assume he are the only sentient animal on the planet.


Octopi are pretty smart and 400 million yrs separated from man - so not decentd from - so man cant take credit for octopi smart.


Humity - its a virtue - try it out, its better than Pride, which we have have been worshiping for millinia- ad of course is a vise - one one of the Seven.

[henry quirk]

So you are wanting a yes or a no answer to your question, correct?.

Yeah, I did, but It seems we have little common ground.

[henry quirk]

as I see it -- morality is about what is permissible between and among persons and animals don't qualify.

Okay. That's a difference for us. I think animals have awareness... maybe not in the way of humans... but I don't think humans are necessarily better. Raping an animal would be like raping a baby: it doesn't understand and it can't fight back, but it is an awful thing to do to another form of life. That's how it seems to me. You may think differently.

agreed - i hate the whole "there is man, then animals" - no, there are animals and man is one of the animal.

and he is ONE if the animals on top - but he may not be the top animal, Doplhins have big brians and more convolution - so stop being a thug pride filled ape, man, be humble and do not assume he are the only sentient animal on the planet.


Octopi are pretty smart and 400 million yrs separated from man - so not decentd from - so man cant take credit for octopi smart.


Humity - its a virtue - try it out, its better than Pride, which we have have been worshiping for millinia- ad of course is a vise - one one of the Seven.

As I say...

I'm certainly open to the idea of non-human persons but I haven't seen much evidence for it. The problem there is: what is a person? What is personhood? There doesn't seem to be much agreement on that with most folks defaulting to I can't tell you what it is, but I know it when I see it.

[gaffo]

As I say...

......................what was Henry saying..........................

[Immanuel Can]

I love myself and so doing so love mankind and forgive them as i do myelf for any shortcommings.

and this world view to me is not bleak in the least - in fact it is the opposite.

Well, I was thinking about you friend, really. But I was assuming that since he is your friend, and since both of you share a level of interest in inebriates and other chemicals, there must be some reason why those appeal to you both more than reality does. I mean, if that were not the case, why bother with them at all, right?

If reality's pretty good the way it is, what need is there for escaping it or for modifying one's reaction to it through the use of chemicals?

That's what I was wondering.

[gaffo]

I love myself and so doing so love mankind and forgive them as i do myelf for any shortcommings.

and this world view to me is not bleak in the least - in fact it is the opposite.

Well, I was thinking about you friend, really. But I was assuming that since he is your friend, and since both of you share a level of interest in inebriates and other chemicals, there must be some reason why those appeal to you both more than reality does. I mean, if that were not the case, why bother with them at all, right?

If reality's pretty good the way it is, what need is there for escaping it or for modifying one's reaction to it through the use of chemicals?

That's what I was wondering.

did not unnderstand - now i do.

got interupted by my buddy vai the phone - now back.


I don't know why alcohol makes me happy (I assume it does for othrs - but not all - since my buddy just gets mean - not sure why ore the percentages of whiich) - for me i've never been an asshole when drunk - in fact i'm a little nicr - though to be fair with myself i'm nice by nature anyway - so maybe i'm not nicr - jut "me")

I do "feel" more - more love hate etc when drunk - it dulls the higher mind, so that make ssense to me at lest.

I'm not a puritan - i know i have a problem with alcohol - i like it too much and in the last decade have drunk too much - i think if i cut it back to whn i was in y 30 - i.e. in half i would be fine - ad i do need to do that.

i have nothing againt drugs per say - only know they welcome addition - but the do not create the addition the addition is from the person taking the drug. I deny the hippy concpt of some ort of Truth from drugs like LSD/shroom/etc Salvia seems interesting from what i've heard via YT - though scary too) - i think such drugs allow one to xperience what you cannot without them - litterallly experience scisoprenia - heraing colors etc..........is an experience - i only took 1/2 hit from acid those tow time so it was mind - similer to strong pot - i did hear souds that were not there and saw tracer and thought i understood the nautre of life - got very philosphical - but as i sobered up i lost what i thought i foud the - (i.e. what i am saying is that the experience is one you can't get sober - but its not a or the truth - the truth you think you fo9und is an allusion and it goe when the drug goes away)

so basically drugs are just thins that are on offer for the curiou - they offer en expericne you cannot get without them - but they do not offer any sort of truth, and one must always be responsible when usig them.


oh and BTW pot sucks - i've "bummed cigs" of pot since the 80-90s (hatd it - and did try 2 times in the last 22 yrs - offered thinking ya maybe i mihgt like it this time - nope paranoid everytim - though i did like the vissual (you dont see what is not there but you do see things lite up more than they are - and when really stoned time slows down by 5 minutes sems like an hour (Alcohol is the opposite), and you seem to see things in 2d - like looking through binocular, and you fel fingers pressing on your back when you moves out of a chiar............andno this is not due to a laced cig - iv'e had that and i've had good strong pot inthe 80' from a solid source - bubbmed (another best friend Monrty - who livd across the stree from me as a kid and overdosed alchold and downers in 98 (he was a good man but became an alcoholic by the mid 90).


anyway anyone that says pot is not the same os alcohol and you cant get fucked up from it is a lying sack of shit - or they naver smoke the "good" stuff. it will fully fuck you up as much as any other drug. and it is an hiusanagin - no matter what anyone else tells you.


to play the conffesor - you my priest - Monty was my 2nd best friend after Bob (Bob know Monty and was a close friend to him) - when he died in 1998 i fell into a deep depression - utter black hole of depear - jut thinking about my state then brings me chills even today (watch Ordinary People - 1979 movie with Hutton when he talks about the black hole (the script writter of that movie must have been where i was) - its apt.

anyway it took me time to recover - 5 yr. i hope i never return to that hol, but you never know - me having been there keps me on alart.

Monty was a kind sole and dying a 32 was too early ;-(.


BTW Ordinary People was prob the bet movie - or top ten of all time - why its not offerd on BLuray even now - 15 yrs and counting is crininal. and the DVD (i have a copy of it - ya DVDFAB - fuck copreichs and lawyers) - the DVD version is piss poor video quality wie - on par with VHS ;-/.

[gaffo]

BTW i created a thrad on The Lounge - welcome your checking it out and offer your views on the matter.