The Struggle for the Soul of America

[Belinda]

I agree but we also need enough people to struggle for America. Trump spoke of the indoctrination in modern education and how it creates radicals. How many college kids could answer the question: "Do you know what you have here?" The fat chick hasn't sung yet but we have to help her get back on the stage. Trump is just one person reminding us of problem. We can think of ourselves but how to defend the principles and values essential for liberty if we don't know what we have here?

How can you tell when somebody is trying to mislead you? Nick ,and Henry, are victims of mis-selling. Do either of you know what divisive means?

ever consider, B, that mebbe you're the who has been, is bein', misled?

Yes, frequently. I hope to continue to do so.

[Belinda]

Liberty' is a fine sounding word but is has been distorted by libertarians to mean laissez faire callousness.

as I'm the only self-described libertarian, in-forum, I have to probe this...

how, B, does my natural rights libertarianism distort liberty into laissez faire callousness?

There are probably no natural rights. Rights are laws made by men and enshrined in some constitution written or unwritten. Americans have a written constitution and should protect it. Without society men are like tyrannosaurus rex.

[Belinda]

Nick wrote:

Do you favor equality in liberty or equality in restraint and servitude?

Willing service to others and restraint of reactive passions deliver freedom for individuals. These are necessary but not sufficient conditions for human freedom. You'd need to add freedom of thought, speech, and assembly.

If liberty for individuals involves deprivation and cruelty for some then that form of liberty is an evil and is deprivation of freedom.

'Liberty' is a fine sounding word but is has been distorted by libertarians to mean laissez faire callousness. The Guillotine itself made the word 'liberty' an ugly word.

Henry is right that callousness is not the result of liberty but the normal result of the human condition which enables Man to be simultaneously capble of the greatest compassion and the greatest atrocities. Socialism and liberty both have this quality. the point is that liberty has the freedom to change inviting the idea which is so intolerable it gets me kicked out of philosophy forums

Humanism was not wrong in thinking that truth, beauty, liberty, and equality are of infinite value, but in thinking that man can get them for himself without grace.
Simone Weil

Secular humanism is dedicated to destroying the attraction to eros in the young necessary for allowing them to become open to receive grace. It is only by grace that a person feels the value of "obligations" essential to maintain liberty as a goal for all.

Socialism must produce its opposite which is the norm for the human condition without the help of grace. America was created with the aim of opening to the help grace. Corruption always is present but it is only through the help of grace that a society as a whole can transcend it in the cause of liberty.

Grace is lovely whether it originates with God or men. Nick, you are not the only recipient of grace. I get it too in equal measure and I am a socialist.

[henry quirk]

Liberty' is a fine sounding word but is has been distorted by libertarians to mean laissez faire callousness.

as I'm the only self-described libertarian, in-forum, I have to probe this...

how, B, does my natural rights libertarianism distort liberty into laissez faire callousness?

There are probably no natural rights. Rights are laws made by men and enshrined in some constitution written or unwritten. Americans have a written constitution and should protect it. Without society men are like tyrannosaurus rex.

did I miss your answer to my question?

[Nick_A]

Nick wrote:



Willing service to others and restraint of reactive passions deliver freedom for individuals. These are necessary but not sufficient conditions for human freedom. You'd need to add freedom of thought, speech, and assembly.

If liberty for individuals involves deprivation and cruelty for some then that form of liberty is an evil and is deprivation of freedom.

'Liberty' is a fine sounding word but is has been distorted by libertarians to mean laissez faire callousness. The Guillotine itself made the word 'liberty' an ugly word.

Henry is right that callousness is not the result of liberty but the normal result of the human condition which enables Man to be simultaneously capble of the greatest compassion and the greatest atrocities. Socialism and liberty both have this quality. the point is that liberty has the freedom to change inviting the idea which is so intolerable it gets me kicked out of philosophy forums

Humanism was not wrong in thinking that truth, beauty, liberty, and equality are of infinite value, but in thinking that man can get them for himself without grace.
Simone Weil

Secular humanism is dedicated to destroying the attraction to eros in the young necessary for allowing them to become open to receive grace. It is only by grace that a person feels the value of "obligations" essential to maintain liberty as a goal for all.

Socialism must produce its opposite which is the norm for the human condition without the help of grace. America was created with the aim of opening to the help grace. Corruption always is present but it is only through the help of grace that a society as a whole can transcend it in the cause of liberty.

Grace is lovely whether it originates with God or men. Nick, you are not the only recipient of grace. I get it too in equal measure and I am a socialist.

What is grace?

Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound
That saved a wretch like me
I once was lost, but now am found
Was blind but now I see…

What does it mean to be blind? What does it mean to see? Are there many people saying lovely things who are completely blind? How is it made possible? Can grace originate from below with Man or does it require a higher source?

[Belinda]

Henry is right that callousness is not the result of liberty but the normal result of the human condition which enables Man to be simultaneously capble of the greatest compassion and the greatest atrocities. Socialism and liberty both have this quality. the point is that liberty has the freedom to change inviting the idea which is so intolerable it gets me kicked out of philosophy forums

Humanism was not wrong in thinking that truth, beauty, liberty, and equality are of infinite value, but in thinking that man can get them for himself without grace.
Simone Weil

Secular humanism is dedicated to destroying the attraction to eros in the young necessary for allowing them to become open to receive grace. It is only by grace that a person feels the value of "obligations" essential to maintain liberty as a goal for all.

Socialism must produce its opposite which is the norm for the human condition without the help of grace. America was created with the aim of opening to the help grace. Corruption always is present but it is only through the help of grace that a society as a whole can transcend it in the cause of liberty.

Grace is lovely whether it originates with God or men. Nick, you are not the only recipient of grace. I get it too in equal measure and I am a socialist.

What is grace?

Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound
That saved a wretch like me
I once was lost, but now am found
Was blind but now I see…

What does it mean to be blind? What does it mean to see? Are there many people saying lovely things who are completely blind? How is it made possible? Can grace originate from below with Man or does it require a higher source?

It does not matter, Nick, where one thinks grace originates. What matters is to see evidence of grace in this world.

[Nick_A]

Grace is lovely whether it originates with God or men. Nick, you are not the only recipient of grace. I get it too in equal measure and I am a socialist.

What is grace?

Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound
That saved a wretch like me
I once was lost, but now am found
Was blind but now I see…

What does it mean to be blind? What does it mean to see? Are there many people saying lovely things who are completely blind? How is it made possible? Can grace originate from below with Man or does it require a higher source?

It does not matter, Nick, where one thinks grace originates. What matters is to see evidence of grace in this world.

Simone Weil learned during her time as a brilliant marxist and atheist that the human condition enables Man to be both capable of compassion nd atrocities. Even the great goals of humanism were realistically impossible because of the human condition. Wonderful thoughts and visions of utopia are meaningless in front of the human condition The only hope lies in the help of grace to awaken conscience to the reality of what we ARE

[Belinda]

What is grace?



What does it mean to be blind? What does it mean to see? Are there many people saying lovely things who are completely blind? How is it made possible? Can grace originate from below with Man or does it require a higher source?

It does not matter, Nick, where one thinks grace originates. What matters is to see evidence of grace in this world.

Simone Weil learned during her time as a brilliant marxist and atheist that the human condition enables Man to be both capable of compassion nd atrocities. Even the great goals of humanism were realistically impossible because of the human condition. Wonderful thoughts and visions of utopia are meaningless in front of the human condition The only hope lies in the help of grace to awaken conscience to the reality of what we ARE

That , Nick,would be devoutly to be wished. A big practical problem is few if any can know what we ARE. We can't even imitate Christ properly.

[Nick_A]

Belinda

That , Nick,would be devoutly to be wished. A big practical problem is few if any can know what we ARE. We can't even imitate Christ properly.

Buddhism for example tells you how to ACT. Christianity as I know it deals with what we ARE which is my attraction to Christianity regardless of how the world rejects it.

The Gospels speak mainly of a possible inner evolution called "re-birth". This is their central idea. ... The Gospels are from beginning to end all about this possible self-evolution. They are psychological documents. They are about the psychology of this possible inner development --that is, about what a man must think, feel, and do in order to reach a new level of understanding. ... Everyone has an outer side that has been developed by his contact with life and an inner side which remains vague, uncertain, undeveloped. ... For that reason the teaching of inner evolution must be so formed that it does not fall solely on the outer side of man. It must fall there first, but be capable of penetrating more deeply and awakening the man himself --the inner, unorganized man. A man evolves internally through his deeper reflection, not through his outer life-controlled side. He evolves through the spirit of his understanding and by inner consent to what he sees as truth. The psychological meanings of the relatively fragmentary teaching recorded in the Gospels refers to this deeper, inner side of everyone.

- Maurice Nicoll; The New Man

This quality of philosophy and psychology opens the way to knowledge. It answers my questions. It reveals why I am the wretched man. What other psychological foundation offers the means to experience human "meaning"? People are told how to ACT but how many are capable of striving "TO BE?

Some of the founding fathers were aware of the human condition and America was created offering the potential to seek meaning free of the dictates of the state.

[Belinda]

Belinda

That , Nick,would be devoutly to be wished. A big practical problem is few if any can know what we ARE. We can't even imitate Christ properly.

Buddhism for example tells you how to ACT. Christianity as I know it deals with what we ARE which is my attraction to Christianity regardless of how the world rejects it.

The Gospels speak mainly of a possible inner evolution called "re-birth". This is their central idea. ... The Gospels are from beginning to end all about this possible self-evolution. They are psychological documents. They are about the psychology of this possible inner development --that is, about what a man must think, feel, and do in order to reach a new level of understanding. ... Everyone has an outer side that has been developed by his contact with life and an inner side which remains vague, uncertain, undeveloped. ... For that reason the teaching of inner evolution must be so formed that it does not fall solely on the outer side of man. It must fall there first, but be capable of penetrating more deeply and awakening the man himself --the inner, unorganized man. A man evolves internally through his deeper reflection, not through his outer life-controlled side. He evolves through the spirit of his understanding and by inner consent to what he sees as truth. The psychological meanings of the relatively fragmentary teaching recorded in the Gospels refers to this deeper, inner side of everyone.

- Maurice Nicoll; The New Man

This quality of philosophy and psychology opens the way to knowledge. It answers my questions. It reveals why I am the wretched man. What other psychological foundation offers the means to experience human "meaning"? People are told how to ACT but how many are capable of striving "TO BE?

Some of the founding fathers were aware of the human condition and America was created offering the potential to seek meaning free of the dictates of the state.

What worries me about Xianity is that what we ARE is sinful. It is hard to separate guilt from repentance. Guilt is useless.

[Nick_A]

Belinda

That , Nick,would be devoutly to be wished. A big practical problem is few if any can know what we ARE. We can't even imitate Christ properly.

Buddhism for example tells you how to ACT. Christianity as I know it deals with what we ARE which is my attraction to Christianity regardless of how the world rejects it.

The Gospels speak mainly of a possible inner evolution called "re-birth". This is their central idea. ... The Gospels are from beginning to end all about this possible self-evolution. They are psychological documents. They are about the psychology of this possible inner development --that is, about what a man must think, feel, and do in order to reach a new level of understanding. ... Everyone has an outer side that has been developed by his contact with life and an inner side which remains vague, uncertain, undeveloped. ... For that reason the teaching of inner evolution must be so formed that it does not fall solely on the outer side of man. It must fall there first, but be capable of penetrating more deeply and awakening the man himself --the inner, unorganized man. A man evolves internally through his deeper reflection, not through his outer life-controlled side. He evolves through the spirit of his understanding and by inner consent to what he sees as truth. The psychological meanings of the relatively fragmentary teaching recorded in the Gospels refers to this deeper, inner side of everyone.

- Maurice Nicoll; The New Man

This quality of philosophy and psychology opens the way to knowledge. It answers my questions. It reveals why I am the wretched man. What other psychological foundation offers the means to experience human "meaning"? People are told how to ACT but how many are capable of striving "TO BE?

Some of the founding fathers were aware of the human condition and America was created offering the potential to seek meaning free of the dictates of the state.

What worries me about Xianity is that what we ARE is sinful. It is hard to separate guilt from repentance. Guilt is useless.

I recently began a thread called "What is Faith. I began it to explain the difference between emotional faith which is slavery and conscious faith which leads to freedom. Emotional faith leads to all the horrors of emotional attachment including guilt. I'm trying to explain conscious faith to begin with by quoting the faith of the centurion and why Jesus praised it. Recognizing the difference between emotional faith and conscious faith is real psychology.

[Belinda]

A thought -provoking story:

The Faith of the Centurion
5 When Jesus had entered Capernaum, a centurion came to him, asking for help. 6 “Lord,” he said, “my servant lies at home paralyzed, suffering terribly.”

7 Jesus said to him, “Shall I come and heal him?”

8 The centurion replied, “Lord, I do not deserve to have you come under my roof. But just say the word, and my servant will be healed. 9 For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one, ‘Go,’ and he goes; and that one, ‘Come,’ and he comes. I say to my servant, ‘Do this,’ and he does it.”

10 When Jesus heard this, he was amazed and said to those following him, “Truly I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith. 11 I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. 12 But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

13 Then Jesus said to the centurion, “Go! Let it be done just as you believed it would.” And his servant was healed at that moment.

The theme is the universality of God .Faith as not limited to the tribe of Israel (or any other tribe)

[Nick_A]

A thought -provoking story:

The Faith of the Centurion
5 When Jesus had entered Capernaum, a centurion came to him, asking for help. 6 “Lord,” he said, “my servant lies at home paralyzed, suffering terribly.”

7 Jesus said to him, “Shall I come and heal him?”

8 The centurion replied, “Lord, I do not deserve to have you come under my roof. But just say the word, and my servant will be healed. 9 For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one, ‘Go,’ and he goes; and that one, ‘Come,’ and he comes. I say to my servant, ‘Do this,’ and he does it.”

10 When Jesus heard this, he was amazed and said to those following him, “Truly I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith. 11 I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. 12 But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

13 Then Jesus said to the centurion, “Go! Let it be done just as you believed it would.” And his servant was healed at that moment.

The theme is the universality of God .Faith as not limited to the tribe of Israel (or any other tribe)

This is faith IN the universality of God. The Faith Dr. Nicoll wrote of is an internal quality. Chaos is our inner condition. The conscious faith OF Christ balances the tripartite soul.

Consider the Centurion as a tripartite soul. The slave is the body to the mind. It was sick. The human mind is nothing in relation to the Christ mind. The centurion had the conscious quality of faith to understood what he was what he was so could be helped.