How to exit the religious mess!

[Arising_uk]

Beingness is synonymous with Awareness, it's just difference labels for the same thing.

Ok.

There is no thing being the beingness, there is only beingness. ...

Show me a 'beingness' without a body?

You keep identifying with the body as if it belongs to you...the body doesn't belong to anyone.

No, I keep identifying this body as me.

There is nobody in a body being that body.

You're right, there is just the body which knows itself.

So who looks out of the eyes of the body?....pure awareness does, and the reason I say pure, is because awareness doesn't have a body, it's not an object...the body is just an object arising in and known by unseen awareness.

Show me a 'pure awareness' without a body?

Nobody looks out of the eyes of a body as the eyes are how a body sees.

[Dontaskme]

You see ideas and thoughts all day long if you pay attention.

No you don't see them, you know thoughts, but you can't see them.

[Dontaskme]

The body is aware of itself, how do you think you it notifies itself of an injury?

Do you not see that when you say the body is aware of itself...that is like saying the arm or the leg is aware of itself.

When injury is present in the leg, lets say from a broken leg...the leg doesn't suddenly start screaming in pain does it yelling to you it is injured.
There is an awareness of the Injured body and the pain is the trigger for awareness to become aware of itself. The injured body is the experience. Awareness is the experiencing.

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[Dontaskme]

Show me a 'pure awareness' without a body?

Awareness does not have a body, the body is a thought in awareness. Where or what is the body unless there is the thought about it?
Awareness isn't a thought, because it is that which is prior to thought, it has to be there prior to the thought ..else no thought would or could even arise.
Thoughts are self arising in awareness, they come and go. Awareness is eternally present aware of every thought as and when it arises within it.

Nobody looks out of the eyes of a body as the eyes are how a body sees.

The eyeball is the instrument of seeing and not the seer. So a body is not the seer. There is no seer, there is only ''seeing'' as and through the instrument of seeing which is the eye.

[Belinda]

Dontaskme wrote:

No, I said Immutable SELF....there are no selves.

Selves are the watched...inseparable from the watcher.

That which is watched cannot watch.

That is so. You did say "self", singular. Now you have spelled it with all capital letters which give greater weight. This leads me to think that what you mean by immutable SELF is overarching conscious awareness in which human individuals participate, to some limited extent anyway.

Immutable SELF therefore would be Omniscience within which and only within which we all have our beings such as they are , and without which there would be no beings.

I can now understand how this is panentheism, albeit with a special emphasis on knowing.

Fair enough, You have your unprovable grand theory of existence, and I have my unprovable grand theory of existence.

What I would like to know is how you think that your theory might make the world a better place.

[Dontaskme]

Dontaskme wrote:

No, I said Immutable SELF....there are no selves.

Selves are the watched...inseparable from the watcher.

That which is watched cannot watch.

That is so. You did say "self", singular. Now you have spelled it with all capital letters which give greater weight. This leads me to think that what you mean by immutable SELF is overarching conscious awareness in which human individuals participate, to some limited extent anyway.

Immutable SELF therefore would be Omniscience within which and only within which we all have our beings such as they are , and without which there would be no beings.

I can now understand how this is panentheism, albeit with a special emphasis on knowing.

Fair enough, You have your unprovable grand theory of existence, and I have my unprovable grand theory of existence.

What I would like to know is how you think that your theory might make the world a better place.

It's not unprovable Belinda, it's what we are being right now. I just don't get why people can't see the obvious self evidence of that.

It doesn't make the world a better place, the world cannot change the way it is, what does change is the assumed individual self dissolves back into the great ocean of oneness and realises that when suffering arises which it still does even when one is enlightened, it's just not taken as being personal...it's the letting go of the sense of self which is very liberating. And so if everyone can do that, then that's when the world becomes a very different place...in my opinion.

It's the ego that fights with itself always fighting for a position in life... but what we really are doesn't have to do that, we are everything, this everything is always here, it's very self sufficient, and self fulfilling.

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[Belinda]

Indeed it does, Dontaskme. This makes your theory a sort of therapy.Therapy does make the world a better place.

[Dontaskme]

Indeed it does, Dontaskme. This makes your theory a sort of therapy.Therapy does make the world a better place.

I really don't know how you can call it a therapy. It's a revelation, a realisation that's all. It's nothing to do with healing the self because it's the realisation there is no self to heal.

[Belinda]

Indeed it does, Dontaskme. This makes your theory a sort of therapy.Therapy does make the world a better place.

I really don't know how you can call it a therapy. It's a revelation, a realisation that's all. It's nothing to do with healing the self because it's the realisation there is no self to heal.

You are obstreperous . Keep it up, just try to be more reflective and less impulsive.

[Arising_uk]

No you don't see them, you know thoughts, but you can't see them.

Of course I can, they are the sequences of complexes of images, sounds, feelings, etc that thoughts consist of.

[Arising_uk]

Do you not see that when you say the body is aware of itself...that is like saying the arm or the leg is aware of itself. ...

Do you not see that you are not understanding what being this body is?

When injury is present in the leg, lets say from a broken leg...the leg doesn't suddenly start screaming in pain does it yelling to you it is injured. ...

It surely does.

There is an awareness of the Injured body and the pain is the trigger for awareness to become aware of itself. ...

No, pain is the awareness and it is the trigger for something else to be done.

The injured body is the experience. Awareness is the experiencing.

No, the injured body is the happening, pain is the awareness, experience is what you do with the awareness of the happening.

[Arising_uk]

Awareness does not have a body, ...

Show me such an awareness?

the body is a thought in awareness. ...

No, awareness is the being of a body.

Where or what is the body unless there is the thought about it?

Running around the woods with all the other animals.

Awareness isn't a thought, because it is that which is prior to thought, it has to be there prior to the thought ..else no thought would or could even arise.

No body no thoughts no awareness.

Thoughts are self arising in awareness, they come and go. Awareness is eternally present aware of every thought as and when it arises within it.

Do you have no control over your thoughts? Must be difficult.

The eyeball is the instrument of seeing and not the seer. So a body is not the seer. There is no seer, there is only ''seeing'' as and through the instrument of seeing which is the eye.

If it is an instrument then there must be a seer? Since I don't think it is an instrument but just an extension of the CNS, that is, a part of the being of this body I agree that there is no 'seer' other than the body which needs to get about in the world. That this particular body can also store the representations from sight means that it can also be a seer alongside being a perceiver, that is it can run a model of what it is seeing and act accordingly.

[ken]

... you obviously enjoy masturbating with yourself.

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that's the whole point of masturbating. Having sex with someone else os not masturbating.

Please do not quote Me as saying that. It was dontaskme who wrote it, and I actually replied, more or less, the same way you did.

[Reflex]

If you wish to see the truth then hold no opinion for or against.
Don’t be a theist and don’t be an atheist if you really want to know what truth is.
Don’t say, "There is God"; don't say, "There is not", because whatsoever you say will become a deep desire.
And whatsoever is there hidden in the desire you will project.

By ~famous Indian guru~

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Sounds to me like a great reason to believe.

[Dontaskme]

Indeed it does, Dontaskme. This makes your theory a sort of therapy.Therapy does make the world a better place.

I really don't know how you can call it a therapy. It's a revelation, a realisation that's all. It's nothing to do with healing the self because it's the realisation there is no self to heal.

You are obstreperous . Keep it up, just try to be more reflective and less impulsive.

What I meant by there is no self to heal is the SELF is all there is..SELF is No-self. What's here as Everything doesn't need healing, that's just a man-made construct when the Self became artificially identified. But beneath identification lie a pure perfection and grace. But when you label me with such an obnoxious word like that then I would not expect someone like you to understand what I mean anyway.

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