Philosophy Now Forum

henry quirk wrote: ↑Mon Sep 05, 2022 4:17 pm

Belinda wrote: ↑Mon Sep 05, 2022 4:12 pm

henry quirk wrote: ↑Mon Sep 05, 2022 1:21 pm

Yes. The mind, spirit, soul (pick your placeholder).

Any of the above. People used to believe in the vital spark or life force.

Some of us atavists still do.

Biology says otherwise. For instance does a virus contain or have a life force? Or for instance does your brain contain or have a life force if it's kept alive artificially?

Does a man have or contain a life force if his environment of breathable air, food, and water, is separated from him?

Biology says otherwise.

No, it doesn't.

For instance does a virus contain or have a life force?

Doesn't seem to me a virus has a mind, no.

Or for instance does your brain contain or have a life force if it's kept alive artificially?

That depends on what's wrong with my brain.

Does a man have or contain a life force if his environment of breathable air, food, and water, is separated from him?

If I suffocate or starve: I'm dead.

henry quirk wrote: ↑Tue Sep 06, 2022 11:06 am

Biology says otherwise.

No, it doesn't.

For instance does a virus contain or have a life force?

Doesn't seem to me a virus has a mind, no.

Or for instance does your brain contain or have a life force if it's kept alive artificially?

That depends on what's wrong with my brain.

Does a man have or contain a life force if his environment of breathable air, food, and water, is separated from him?

If I suffocate or starve: I'm dead.

Sure it depends! At what point of the dying process does the life force quit the brain?

You are so right! It follows that you and your life force are not separable from its total environment, which taken to the extreme is the Cosmos itself.

I should have asked you "does a dog have a life force?" Most people including scientists agree with you about viruses, so at which species does the life force not apply?

This is a live moral issue. Already scientists can make a human chimera.

It follows that you and your life force are not separable from its total environment

No, it follows that if I'm separated from air, I'll suffocate and I'm seperated from food and water, I'll starve. It's not about environment: it's about sustenance.

At what point of the dying process does the life force quit the brain?

Mind and brain are two radically different things melded together, neither worth a good goddamn without the other: as goes one, so goes the other.

henry quirk wrote: ↑Tue Sep 06, 2022 11:19 am

It follows that you and your life force are not separable from its total environment

No, it follows that if I'm separated from air, I'll suffocate and I'm seperated from food and water, I'll starve. It's not about environment: it's about sustenance.

Your reply only changes the word not the meaning. What is usually taken to be "environment" is that which sustains species and individuals. Cosmos is that which ultimately sustains life.
How does this fact connect up with the Christian sentiment "He's Got the Whole World In His Hands" ?

does a dog have a life force?

It might.

Are we talkin' about life force or mind?

I'm usin' 'em interchangeably in this conversation.

Belinda wrote: ↑Tue Sep 06, 2022 11:01 am

henry quirk wrote: ↑Mon Sep 05, 2022 4:17 pm

Belinda wrote: ↑Mon Sep 05, 2022 4:12 pm
Any of the above. People used to believe in the vital spark or life force.

Some of us atavists still do.

Biology says otherwise. For instance does a virus contain or have a life force? Or for instance does your brain contain or have a life force if it's kept alive artificially?

Does a man have or contain a life force if his environment of breathable air, food, and water, is separated from him?

There is no such thing as a "life-force".
The universe is the way it is and humans develop systems of description to help us communicate ideas to each other.
It was long thought that "cold" was a force of nature, in distinction to "heat". Two competing forces.
It took a long time to figure out that, whilst it was possible to describe the the world in terms of amount of heat, it was no so for cold. Aside from a theoretical idea of 0 Kelvin, everything has the quality of heat, and nothing has the quality of cold. There are many other examples of fake ideas; Sanguine, Coleric for example. Ideas from discredited sciences of the past.

In a similar way "life-force" is not a property but a mythical idea like "soul" or "spirit". It's about as useful as "Aquarian" or "Piscean" for describing reality; leading to misconceptions.

henry quirk wrote: ↑Tue Sep 06, 2022 11:23 am

At what point of the dying process does the life force quit the brain?

Mind and brain are two radically different things melded together, neither worth a good goddamn without the other: as goes one, so goes the other.

The problem which now confronts both you and Descartes is "How are they welded together if they are two radically different things?"

Descartes suggested the pineal gland inside the cranium was the connection.

Your reply only changes the word not the meaning. What is usually taken to be "environment" is that which sustains species and individuals. Cosmos is that which ultimately sustains life.

Yeah, you edited after I responded. That's a skepdick strategy.

Anyway: yes, we're all in the world.

How does this fact connect up with the Christian sentiment "He's Got the Whole World In His Hands" ?

I'm not Christian: ask Mannie. Me: as a deist, I say God is somewhere else, doin' sumthin' else. We're on our own.

henry quirk wrote: ↑Tue Sep 06, 2022 11:26 am

does a dog have a life force?

It might.

Are we talkin' about life force or mind?

I'm usin' 'em interchangeably in this conversation.

So am I, within the conversation.

The problem which now confronts both you and Descartes is "How are they welded together if they are two radically different things?"

Yeah, you materialists and determinists, there's a whole whack of stuff you guys can't explain (and you don't even try*) but I'm supposed to have all the answers.

Another strategy.

Anyway: hell if I know.




*promissory materialism

Belinda wrote: ↑Tue Sep 06, 2022 11:33 am

henry quirk wrote: ↑Tue Sep 06, 2022 11:26 am

does a dog have a life force?

It might.

Are we talkin' about life force or mind?

I'm usin' 'em interchangeably in this conversation.

So am I, within the conversation.

henry quirk wrote: ↑Tue Sep 06, 2022 11:30 am

Your reply only changes the word not the meaning. What is usually taken to be "environment" is that which sustains species and individuals. Cosmos is that which ultimately sustains life.

Yeah, you edited after I responded. That's a skepdick strategy.

Anyway: yes, we're all in the world.

How does this fact connect up with the Christian sentiment "He's Got the Whole World In His Hands" ?

I'm not Christian: ask Mannie. Me: as a deist, I say God is somewhere else, doin' sumthin' else. We're on our own.

That is a fair enough description of a deist, if you were to be clear, as I think you are, that God set it all up and then went away and does not intervene in what transpires. So have answered my question about that Xian sentiment I quoted.

I wonder if you really understand it follows from deism that this is a Godless and rather mechanical world.

I agree "we're all in the world".

I wonder if you really understand it follows from deism that this is a Godless and rather mechanical world.

Some deists agree: some don't. There is no Big Book of Definitive Deist Answers. And -- forgive me, B -- you ain't the authority on the subject.