Our universe is contingent

[bahman]

ONCE AGAIN we have ANOTHER completely AND utterly Wrong ASSUMPTION.

As can be CLEARLY SEEN here even when I suggest that the people do NOT make absolutely ANY ASSUMPTIONS AT ALL and just read thee ACTUAL words that I write, they STILL go straight into ASSUMPTION 'mode', and STILL make the EXACT SAME mistakes and thus Wrong ASSUMPTIONS, ONCE MORE.

Can you answer my question instead of evading it?

But you NEVER asked a question here. What you did here, instead, was just make a statement and claim. As can be CLEARLY SEEN, EVIDENCED, and PROVED True by the ACTUAL words you used.

If you provide A question, then I CAN answer it.

Also, considering the ACTUAL AMOUNT of times that you do NOT answer my ACTUAL questions posed to you, your clarifying question here appears very obtuse.

Well I do NOT, so there rest here is MOOT.

Again you don't understand simple logic.

LOL "bahman".

Well 'what' or 'who', EXACTLY, created the WHOLE Universe?

Minds sustain the universe constantly.

Will you answer my question instead of evading it?

And, who or what creates ALL of these "minds".

The mind cannot be created since otherwise, you need something that creates the mind, etc. and this leads to a regress. I have another proof for the existence of the mind which is off-topic.

OBVIOUSLY if the WHOLE Universe had a beginning some one or some thing HAD TO create It, correct?

The universe has a beginning but it does not mean that someone created it.

I NEVER said someone created It. In fact I NEVER even suggested that someone created It.

I just asked you ANOTHER question, which, by the way, you did NOT answer and just 'tried to' evade, ONCE MORE.

You are better to read your own question.

[bahman]

Is there absolutely ANY object that is NOT causally related?

If yes, then 'what', EXACTLY?

If there are objects that are not causally related then they belong to another universe.

LOL
LOL
LOL

ANOTHER question that you will NOT answer, but will just evade.

Also, by your EVASIVE tactics, what this ACTUALLY means is that absolutely EVERY thing, to "bahman", belongs in and exists within this Universe. Which MEANS that this Universe is thee One and ONLY Universe.

Yes, there are universes that are causally not related to our universe, what we physically observe.

Infinite.

Were you under some sort of ASSUMPTION or ILLUSION that It could be smaller or finite?

If yes, then 'what', EXACTLY, would lead you to such a PRESUMPTION as this?

TOTALITY, Everything, or ALL-THERE-IS.

That is the point that we have different opinions about the definition of our universe.

OBVIOUSLY. This was ABSOLUTELY TOTALLY CLEAR from the VERY OUTSET.

In fact just about EVERY 'dispute' and 'argument' 'you', human beings, have been put down to just having DIFFERENT definitions and/or views of 'things'.

But anyway, from what you above here in this response, you also define and CLAIM this Universe is thee ONLY One as It, to you, is made up of, and consists of, EVERY thing.

No.

I discussed in another thread that if some galaxies are coming closer together, then where, EXACTLY, is the expansion taking place.

Here is a GREAT EXAMPLE of how even when thee ACTUAL evidence AND proof is provided to someone, then they will NOT accept thee ACTUAL PROOF when they BELIEVE otherwise.

Even what thee WHOLE Universe actually consists of and even how thee Universe ACTUALLY works, this, to some, is NOT enough proof, for them.

Feel free to believe that that is a proof.

But I do NOT believe ANY such thing.

Besides being BLINDED by your OWN BELIEFS you are also completely and utterly DEAF, AS WELL. Especially considering just how MANY TIMES I have INFORMED you of this Fact.

Feel free to believe that that is a proof.

[bahman]

BUT, you claim that 'mind' is a substance, and as such is therefore only existing because of preexisting conditions or because of cause and effect. Therefore, this 'mind' thingy, which you talk about here can NOT be independent and free as you claim here.

No, mind is a substance that cannot be caused. It is the uncaused cause.

WHY can this, SUPPOSED and ALLEGED, "substance", which you OBVIOUSLY have absolutely NO idea NOR clue about AT ALL, can NOT be, SUPPOSEDLY and ALLEGEDLY "caused"?

Do you have ANY ACTUAL 'evidence', let alone 'proof' for this CLAIM of yours here?

Or, is this just ANOTHER one of YOUR CLAIMS, which you just made up out of NOTHING, just because you feel and think that it will somehow fit in with your CURRENT BELIEFS.

Because of regress.

Here we have a PRIME EXAMPLE of how and where one will 'try to' say just about absolutely ANY thing in order to 'try to' "justify" their already obtained and currently held BELIEFS.

I am done with you.

You have said and CLAIMED this previously, but here you are STILL 'doing', with me.

So, your point is PROVED MOOT here.


You OBVIOUSLY STILL have absolutely NO IDEA NOR CLUE AT ALL about FREE WILL, DETERMINISM, what thee Universe ACTUALLY IS, and who and what thee Universe is ACTUALLY dependent upon or not.

You have no idea what I am talking about.

And this is NOT for TRYING.

I have asked you that many CLARIFYING QUESTIONS, which if you had answered, instead of evaded, then I would have at least SOME clue as to what you are meant to be actually talking about here.

What I am saying is simple. There are universes that are causally not related to our universe.

[Skepdick]

There are universes that are causally not related to our universe.

What has caused you to think that?

[bahman]

There are universes that are causally not related to our universe.

What has caused you to think that?

A simple example is the matter that exists beyond the observable universe.

[Skepdick]

There are universes that are causally not related to our universe.

What has caused you to think that?

A simple example is the matter that exists beyond the observable universe.

What has caused you to believe that matter exists beyond the observable universe?

[bahman]

What has caused you to think that?

A simple example is the matter that exists beyond the observable universe.

What has caused you to believe that matter exists beyond the observable universe?

There is no reason to believe that the universe abruptly vanishes at the edge of the observable universe. The whole is infinite whereas the observable universe is finite.

[Age]

Can you answer my question instead of evading it?

But you NEVER asked a question here. What you did here, instead, was just make a statement and claim. As can be CLEARLY SEEN, EVIDENCED, and PROVED True by the ACTUAL words you used.

If you provide A question, then I CAN answer it.

Also, considering the ACTUAL AMOUNT of times that you do NOT answer my ACTUAL questions posed to you, your clarifying question here appears very obtuse.

Again you don't understand simple logic.

LOL "bahman".

Minds sustain the universe constantly.

Will you answer my question instead of evading it?

And, who or what creates ALL of these "minds".

The mind cannot be created since otherwise, you need something that creates the mind, etc. and this leads to a regress.

Okay. So, to you, the 'mind' can NOT be created, and is therefore eternal. But, the Universe is created, and thus began and is finite.

Now, you say and claim that the 'mind' is NOT created but yet there are MANY 'minds', and that ALL of these MANY 'minds' are made up of 'substance', correct?

I have another proof for the existence of the mind which is off-topic.

What were your 'prior' proof or proofs, for the existence of 'mind'? And then,

What is your "other" proof, for the existence of 'mind'?

The universe has a beginning but it does not mean that someone created it.

I NEVER said someone created It. In fact I NEVER even suggested that someone created It.

I just asked you ANOTHER question, which, by the way, you did NOT answer and just 'tried to' evade, ONCE MORE.

You are better to read your own question.

Considering 'I' wrote my OWN question, 'I' have read it. And, in that question there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING that suggests that someone created the WHOLE Universe, Itself.

Now, if you would like to continue disputing this Fact, then please go ahead.

I am more than willing to PROVIDE thee PROOF that CLEARLY SHOWS that I NEVER even suggested that someone created thee Universe, Itself.

I will also be able to SHOW just HOW and WHY 'you', human beings, in the days when this was being written, were so QUICK to JUMP to making ASSUMPTIONS, and to arriving to CONCLUSIONS, and that 'you' would do this BEFORE absolutely ANY CLARIFICATION was made FIRST. Which is what led 'you', human beings, to ALL of your MISUNDERSTANDINGS and Wrong CONCLUSIONS.

[Age]

If there are objects that are not causally related then they belong to another universe.

LOL
LOL
LOL

ANOTHER question that you will NOT answer, but will just evade.

Also, by your EVASIVE tactics, what this ACTUALLY means is that absolutely EVERY thing, to "bahman", belongs in and exists within this Universe. Which MEANS that this Universe is thee One and ONLY Universe.

Yes,

Usually when someone uses the word, 'Yes', after someone else has spoken, this implies an agreement. Which would mean that you AGREE that there is One and ONLY One Universe. Yet, after your 'Yes', you go on and say:

there are universes that are causally not related to our universe, what we physically observe.

Which TOTALLY CONTRADICTS your 'Yes'.

Now, either you could have said, 'Yes', to some 'thing' that I have absolutely NO clue NOR idea about AT ALL. Or, you could have just said, 'Yes', for the sake of saying, 'Yes', and for NO other reason. If you have ANY inkling AT ALL about being Truly UNDERSTOOD here, then you WILL CLARIFY things for us here. Otherwise, you will just EVADE this AS WELL.

ONCE AGAIN, I will note YOUR use of the word "our" in relation to 'universe', your PRESUMPTION that absolutely EVERY thing, IMMEDIATELY, beyond what 'you', human beings', (or what some other things) 'physically observe' are in some OTHER so-called "universes", and that ALL of those things are, in some Truly ILLOGICAL way, NOT causally related to 'this universe".

I will now NOT even ask you to answer and explain how, EXACTLY, could this even be LOGICALLY POSSIBLE, let alone AN ACTUALITY.

That is the point that we have different opinions about the definition of our universe.

OBVIOUSLY. This was ABSOLUTELY TOTALLY CLEAR from the VERY OUTSET.

In fact just about EVERY 'dispute' and 'argument' 'you', human beings, have been put down to just having DIFFERENT definitions and/or views of 'things'.

But anyway, from what you above here in this response, you also define and CLAIM this Universe is thee ONLY One as It, to you, is made up of, and consists of, EVERY thing.

No.

So, you say some thing, which I REPEAT, but then you say, 'No'.

And, from past conversations with 'you', "bahman", you are NOT able to EXPLAIN the OBVIOUS and BLATANT CONTRADICTIONS here, correct?

Feel free to believe that that is a proof.

But I do NOT believe ANY such thing.

Besides being BLINDED by your OWN BELIEFS you are also completely and utterly DEAF, AS WELL. Especially considering just how MANY TIMES I have INFORMED you of this Fact.

Feel free to believe that that is a proof.

That 'what' is proof?

Also, what can be CLEARLY SEEN here is just how these human beings, back in those days, really were TOTALLY and UTTERLY IGNORANT and STUPEFIED because of their BELIEFS and ASSUMPTIONS, which they just REFUSED to shake off and let go of.

[Age]

There are universes that are causally not related to our universe.

What has caused you to think that?

A simple example is the matter that exists beyond the observable universe.

So, when "bahman" is looking out into the Universe, on a bright cloudless sunny day, ALL of the stars, planets, moons, meteorites, dust, et cetera, besides of course for the sun and the earth, themselves, are ALL in "OTHER" "universes", correct?

If this is NOT correct, then WHY NOT, and WHAT IS, EXACTLY?

[Age]

A simple example is the matter that exists beyond the observable universe.

What has caused you to believe that matter exists beyond the observable universe?

There is no reason to believe that the universe abruptly vanishes at the edge of the observable universe.

But what is the reason to believe that ANY thing past the 'observable universe' does NOT causally relate (nor causally interact) with the 'observable (to human beings) universe'?

The whole is infinite whereas the observable universe is finite.

And, to quite few many people, the 'whole' is also known as 'the Universe'. As the word 'Universe' infers and entails Everything.

Also, one can 'see' with the physical eyes, and brain, OR, they can SEE (or UNDERSTAND) with the Mind's EYE, thee Truly OPEN Mind.

So, what is 'observable,' to some, with the physical eyes is OBVIOUSLY 'finite'. But, what is OBSERVABLE, to "others", with the Truly OPEN Mind is ACTUALLY 'infinite', and CRYSTAL CLEAR I will add.

SEE, because of the limitations of the physical eyes, and the brain, what is observed, and seen, with them can be and IS DISTORTED. However, because there are absolutely NO limitations of the Mind's EYE, and the Truly OPEN Mind, what is observed, AND SEEN, with IT can NOT be and is NOT DISTORTED.

[bahman]

But you NEVER asked a question here. What you did here, instead, was just make a statement and claim. As can be CLEARLY SEEN, EVIDENCED, and PROVED True by the ACTUAL words you used.

If you provide A question, then I CAN answer it.

Also, considering the ACTUAL AMOUNT of times that you do NOT answer my ACTUAL questions posed to you, your clarifying question here appears very obtuse.


LOL "bahman".


Will you answer my question instead of evading it?

And, who or what creates ALL of these "minds".

The mind cannot be created since otherwise, you need something that creates the mind, etc. and this leads to a regress.

Okay. So, to you, the 'mind' can NOT be created, and is therefore eternal. But, the Universe is created, and thus began and is finite.

Yes, mind is not created. No, mind is not eternal in the sense that it existed in the infinite past. It exists since the beginning of time. The universe is not created either. It started to exist at the beginning of time.

Now, you say and claim that the 'mind' is NOT created but yet there are MANY 'minds', and that ALL of these MANY 'minds' are made up of 'substance', correct?

Mind is a substance.

I have another proof for the existence of the mind which is off-topic.

What were your 'prior' proof or proofs, for the existence of 'mind'? And then,

If there is no mind then there is a regress in causality.

What is your "other" proof, for the existence of 'mind'?

You can find it in here

I NEVER said someone created It. In fact I NEVER even suggested that someone created It.

I just asked you ANOTHER question, which, by the way, you did NOT answer and just 'tried to' evade, ONCE MORE.

You are better to read your own question.

Considering 'I' wrote my OWN question, 'I' have read it. And, in that question there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING that suggests that someone created the WHOLE Universe, Itself.

Now, if you would like to continue disputing this Fact, then please go ahead.

I am more than willing to PROVIDE thee PROOF that CLEARLY SHOWS that I NEVER even suggested that someone created thee Universe, Itself.

I will also be able to SHOW just HOW and WHY 'you', human beings, in the days when this was being written, were so QUICK to JUMP to making ASSUMPTIONS, and to arriving to CONCLUSIONS, and that 'you' would do this BEFORE absolutely ANY CLARIFICATION was made FIRST. Which is what led 'you', human beings, to ALL of your MISUNDERSTANDINGS and Wrong CONCLUSIONS.

Ok, so we are in the same page.

[bahman]

LOL
LOL
LOL

ANOTHER question that you will NOT answer, but will just evade.

Also, by your EVASIVE tactics, what this ACTUALLY means is that absolutely EVERY thing, to "bahman", belongs in and exists within this Universe. Which MEANS that this Universe is thee One and ONLY Universe.

Yes,

Usually when someone uses the word, 'Yes', after someone else has spoken, this implies an agreement. Which would mean that you AGREE that there is One and ONLY One Universe. Yet, after your 'Yes', you go on and say:

there are universes that are causally not related to our universe, what we physically observe.

Which TOTALLY CONTRADICTS your 'Yes'.

Now, either you could have said, 'Yes', to some 'thing' that I have absolutely NO clue NOR idea about AT ALL. Or, you could have just said, 'Yes', for the sake of saying, 'Yes', and for NO other reason. If you have ANY inkling AT ALL about being Truly UNDERSTOOD here, then you WILL CLARIFY things for us here. Otherwise, you will just EVADE this AS WELL.

ONCE AGAIN, I will note YOUR use of the word "our" in relation to 'universe', your PRESUMPTION that absolutely EVERY thing, IMMEDIATELY, beyond what 'you', human beings', (or what some other things) 'physically observe' are in some OTHER so-called "universes", and that ALL of those things are, in some Truly ILLOGICAL way, NOT causally related to 'this universe".

I will now NOT even ask you to answer and explain how, EXACTLY, could this even be LOGICALLY POSSIBLE, let alone AN ACTUALITY.

I mean the observable universe that we experience is not the whole.

OBVIOUSLY. This was ABSOLUTELY TOTALLY CLEAR from the VERY OUTSET.

In fact just about EVERY 'dispute' and 'argument' 'you', human beings, have been put down to just having DIFFERENT definitions and/or views of 'things'.

But anyway, from what you above here in this response, you also define and CLAIM this Universe is thee ONLY One as It, to you, is made up of, and consists of, EVERY thing.

No.

So, you say some thing, which I REPEAT, but then you say, 'No'.

And, from past conversations with 'you', "bahman", you are NOT able to EXPLAIN the OBVIOUS and BLATANT CONTRADICTIONS here, correct?

The whole is one. Our universe, the matter that we experience is not the only one since there are matter outside of the observable universe that we cannot experience.

[bahman]

What has caused you to think that?

A simple example is the matter that exists beyond the observable universe.

So, when "bahman" is looking out into the Universe, on a bright cloudless sunny day, ALL of the stars, planets, moons, meteorites, dust, et cetera, besides of course for the sun and the earth, themselves, are ALL in "OTHER" "universes", correct?

If this is NOT correct, then WHY NOT, and WHAT IS, EXACTLY?

No, we cannot observe the stuff beyond the observable universe.

[bahman]

What has caused you to believe that matter exists beyond the observable universe?

There is no reason to believe that the universe abruptly vanishes at the edge of the observable universe.

But what is the reason to believe that ANY thing past the 'observable universe' does NOT causally relate (nor causally interact) with the 'observable (to human beings) universe'?

Because they move at a speed faster than the speed of light. So even the light from this star can never reach us. Therefore the observable universe is causally independent of the whole.

The whole is infinite whereas the observable universe is finite.

And, to quite few many people, the 'whole' is also known as 'the Universe'. As the word 'Universe' infers and entails Everything.

Also, one can 'see' with the physical eyes, and brain, OR, they can SEE (or UNDERSTAND) with the Mind's EYE, thee Truly OPEN Mind.

So, what is 'observable,' to some, with the physical eyes is OBVIOUSLY 'finite'. But, what is OBSERVABLE, to "others", with the Truly OPEN Mind is ACTUALLY 'infinite', and CRYSTAL CLEAR I will add.

SEE, because of the limitations of the physical eyes, and the brain, what is observed, and seen, with them can be and IS DISTORTED. However, because there are absolutely NO limitations of the Mind's EYE, and the Truly OPEN Mind, what is observed, AND SEEN, with IT can NOT be and is NOT DISTORTED.

Nonsense. You better to educate yourself a bit. You need to read this.