INVESTIGATING FREE WILL AND DETERMINISM

[attofishpi]

Thought experiment..

Let's say there are two identical worlds. Earth A and Earth B, that have been so arranged to each and every molecule, is in the same relative position and each has the exact types and amounts of energy.

In both of these worlds Lorikeet has been asked to chose one out of a dozen films to see tonight at the local cinema. Happy to demonstrate his wonderful free will he decides upon a film and in the next second he makes he expresses that choice

There are two possible outcomes here.
Either

1) Lorikeet A and B choose the same film.
OR
2) Lorikeet A choses a different film from B.

What might 1) and 2) say about reality.

2) would suggest that at the decision making level of consciousness, quantum indeterminacy in the least means that determinism has no hand to play in the decision, ergo free will.

What bearing has determinism and or free will on these outcomes, and what would be the consequences for understanding what 1 and 2 say about Lorikeet..?

On outcome 1) I'd say that the more choices in films that there were, the more I'd hedge against there being any form of free will.

But if 2 then reality is not determined. but random. Is that what free will is, randomness?
If free will is true then on what basis was the choice made?

No I believe that a lot of random shit is sub-consciously going on at once within our brain, and we are choosing with our free will which best suits.


What about Boony's Room?

Two identical copies of cricketer David Boon were made unbeknownst to him. The two copies of Boony, instantly appear facing each other from opposite corners of a white room that is 3 metres cubed, identical in all directions.

What happens next?
Do they both, at the same time, ask the exact same question of each other?
Do they end up arguing because they both keep attempting to interject at precisely the same time with precisely the same dialogue?

After five minutes, the pair hear a voice asking them to draw a picture of their favourite fruit on the wall and are told there is a pencil in their left pocket.

Do they both turn and draw on the same symmetrically opposite part of the wall?
Do they both draw identical images of the fruit?

[Sculptor]

2) would suggest that at the decision making level of consciousness, quantum indeterminacy in the least means that determinism has no hand to play in the decision, ergo free will.




On outcome 1) I'd say that the more choices in films that there were, the more I'd hedge against there being any form of free will.

But if 2 then reality is not determined. but random. Is that what free will is, randomness?
If free will is true then on what basis was the choice made?

No I believe that a lot of random shit is sub-consciously going on at once within our brain, and we are choosing with our free will which best suits.

On what basis does a choice "best suit"?

[Sculptor]

Do they both turn and draw on the same symmetrically opposite part of the wall?
Do they both draw identical images of the fruit?[/color]

At first they do exactly the same thing.
But they are in different places, and so there is always the potential for differentiation.
The voice they hear will be a micro-second different. The walls cannot be perfectly uniform so the pencils will be slightly different.
Tiny differences grow, but there is nothing yet to change their minds about their favorite fruit.
Eventually they diverge.

[attofishpi]

But if 2 then reality is not determined. but random. Is that what free will is, randomness?
If free will is true then on what basis was the choice made?

No I believe that a lot of random shit is sub-consciously going on at once within our brain, and we are choosing with our free will which best suits.

On what basis does a choice "best suit"?

How we make most of our decisions, by bouncing our perceived notions about something (in this case some films) comparing them to how we 'feel' about similar past experiences (memory) and ultimately the decision in this case will be based on our emotional feelings.

[attofishpi]

Do they both turn and draw on the same symmetrically opposite part of the wall?
Do they both draw identical images of the fruit?[/color]

At first they do exactly the same thing.
But they are in different places, and so there is always the potential for differentiation.
The voice they hear will be a micro-second different. The walls cannot be perfectly uniform so the pencils will be slightly different.

EVERYTHING at the point of instanciation for each Boony is identical, including the source of the sound, and the pencils that are in their pockets.

Tiny differences grow, but there is nothing yet to change their minds about their favorite fruit. Eventually they diverge.

Absolutely, they would almost certainly have the same fruit in mind.

However, I think there is something key to the quantum indeterminacy that would make both Boony's operate very differently from perhaps the first words uttered to each other. Observers would note that both Boony's are typical of Boony, but I think from the get go the differences would be apparent.
The drawings of the fruit would probably be on different parts of the opposing wall, and I can't believe they would be in anyway identical beyond representing a particular choice in fruit.
It wouldn't surprise me if one of the Boony's drops his pencil when fishing it from his pocket!

[Sculptor]

No I believe that a lot of random shit is sub-consciously going on at once within our brain, and we are choosing with our free will which best suits.

On what basis does a choice "best suit"?

How we make most of our decisions, by bouncing our perceived notions about something (in this case some films) comparing them to how we 'feel' about similar past experiences (memory) and ultimately the decision in this case will be based on our emotional feelings.

Of course determined by who and what we are.
QED choices are either deterministic or random, they cannot be "free".

[Sculptor]

Do they both turn and draw on the same symmetrically opposite part of the wall?
Do they both draw identical images of the fruit?[/color]

At first they do exactly the same thing.
But they are in different places, and so there is always the potential for differentiation.
The voice they hear will be a micro-second different. The walls cannot be perfectly uniform so the pencils will be slightly different.

EVERYTHING at the point of instanciation for each Boony is identical, including the source of the sound, and the pencils that are in their pockets.

Tiny differences grow, but there is nothing yet to change their minds about their favorite fruit. Eventually they diverge.

Absolutely, they would almost certainly have the same fruit in mind.

However, I think there is something key to the quantum indeterminacy that would make both Boony's operate very differently from perhaps the first words uttered to each other. Observers would note that both Boony's are typical of Boony, but I think from the get go the differences would be apparent.
The drawings of the fruit would probably be on different parts of the opposing wall, and I can't believe they would be in anyway identical beyond representing a particular choice in fruit.
It wouldn't surprise me if one of the Boony's drops his pencil when fishing it from his pocket!

In your example they are not the same, since they exist in a different location and orientation of space time. In my example they are in fact purely the same.
But if you want to insist that they are the same then they will be locked in a mirror dance until they die. Even if they each had a dice and resolved to do something different when one of them threw a six, they would just throw the same value dice, and the prison of their mirror world would remained locked.
The choices they make can only be made by who and what they are; from their personal depositions, volitions, experiences, and visceral reality.
The only thing that can interrupt that is true randomness which I do not think can exist.
Even quantum phenomena produce reliably predictable unpredicted results.
The double slot experiment is infinitely replicable, and the result unvarying.

[Age]

Thought experiment..

Let's say there are two identical worlds. Earth A and Earth B, that have been so arranged to each and every molecule, is in the same relative position and each has the exact types and amounts of energy.

In both of these worlds Lorikeet has been asked to chose one out of a dozen films to see tonight at the local cinema. Happy to demonstrate his wonderful free will he decides upon a film and in the next second he makes he expresses that choice

There are two possible outcomes here.
Either

1) Lorikeet A and B choose the same film.
OR
2) Lorikeet A choses a different film from B.

What might 1) and 2) say about reality.

HOW are 'you' defining the 'reality' word here, EXACTLY?

What bearing has determinism and or free will on these outcomes, and what would be the consequences for understanding what 1 and 2 say about Lorikeet..?

'you' appear to have a VERY CONFUSED version and/or interpretation here of what the words 'determinism' and 'free will' mean or refer to, EXACTLY.

[Age]

Thought experiment..

Let's say there are two identical worlds. Earth A and Earth B, that have been so arranged to each and every molecule, is in the same relative position and each has the exact types and amounts of energy.

In both of these worlds Lorikeet has been asked to chose one out of a dozen films to see tonight at the local cinema. Happy to demonstrate his wonderful free will he decides upon a film and in the next second he makes he expresses that choice

There are two possible outcomes here.
Either

1) Lorikeet A and B choose the same film.
OR
2) Lorikeet A choses a different film from B.

What might 1) and 2) say about reality.

2) would suggest that at the decision making level of consciousness, quantum indeterminacy in the least means that determinism has no hand to play in the decision, ergo free will.

But 'determinism' will ALWAYS play a part in 'decisions'.

This can NOT be REFUTED.

What bearing has determinism and or free will on these outcomes, and what would be the consequences for understanding what 1 and 2 say about Lorikeet..?

On outcome 1) I'd say that the more choices in films that there were, the more I'd hedge against there being any form of free will.

So, and according to this so-called "logic" here, if there are two films to choose from instead of just one, then this MEANS that 'you' would hedge AGAINST there be absolutely ANY form of 'free will' AT ALL, correct?

[Sculptor]

Someone remind AGE that I stopped reading his posts months ago.

[Age]

Thought experiment..

Let's say there are two identical worlds. Earth A and Earth B, that have been so arranged to each and every molecule, is in the same relative position and each has the exact types and amounts of energy.

In both of these worlds Lorikeet has been asked to chose one out of a dozen films to see tonight at the local cinema. Happy to demonstrate his wonderful free will he decides upon a film and in the next second he makes he expresses that choice

There are two possible outcomes here.
Either

1) Lorikeet A and B choose the same film.
OR
2) Lorikeet A choses a different film from B.

What might 1) and 2) say about reality.

2) would suggest that at the decision making level of consciousness, quantum indeterminacy in the least means that determinism has no hand to play in the decision, ergo free will.

What bearing has determinism and or free will on these outcomes, and what would be the consequences for understanding what 1 and 2 say about Lorikeet..?

On outcome 1) I'd say that the more choices in films that there were, the more I'd hedge against there being any form of free will.

But if 2 then reality is not determined. but random. Is that what free will is, randomness?
If free will is true then on what basis was the choice made?

'Choice' is ALWAYS made upon pre-existing 'thoughts', AND, ALL 'thoughts' come from previous experiences, or pre-existing conditions.

'free will' AND 'determinism' BOTH EXIST.

Outcome 1 means that his will is determined by the antecedent conditions, and that as it was not compelled it is freely determined.

[Age]

Someone remind AGE that I stopped reading his posts months ago.

WHY?

That HAS NOT STOPPED me from POINTING OUT and REVEALING the FLAWS and FAULTS in YOUR WRITINGS, BEFORE?

It will ALSO NOT STOP me from DOING SO INTO THE FUTURE, EITHER.

[Age]

Thought experiment..

Let's say there are two identical worlds. Earth A and Earth B, that have been so arranged to each and every molecule, is in the same relative position and each has the exact types and amounts of energy.

In both of these worlds Lorikeet has been asked to chose one out of a dozen films to see tonight at the local cinema. Happy to demonstrate his wonderful free will he decides upon a film and in the next second he makes he expresses that choice

There are two possible outcomes here.
Either

1) Lorikeet A and B choose the same film.
OR
2) Lorikeet A choses a different film from B.

What might 1) and 2) say about reality. What bearing has determinism and or free will on these outcomes, and what would be the consequences for understanding what 1 and 2 say about Lorikeet..?

You can draw no conclusions whatsoever.

IF you can have TWO identical worlds; if you can make perfect copies/clones of things then Heisenberg's uncertainty principle; and the No-cloning theorem don't hold.

In what sort of universe does the entity setting up the experiment live in where that is possible? Because it's not the universe we live in.

So you have insufficient imagination to answer the question?
Or does the thought experiment worry you for some reason that you avoid making an answer.

IF there are two identical worlds. Earth A and Earth B, that have been so arranged to each and every molecule, is in the same relative position and each has the exact types and amounts of energy, THEN there could NEVER be ANY DIFFERENCE, NOR CHANGE in OUT-COME.

[Age]

Of course, the tricky part here is that until we are able to pin down definitively whether we do in fact have free will, we have no way in which to fully determine if our investigation itself is or is not wholly in sync with human brains wholly in sync with the laws of matter.

But some of us have ALREADY so-called 'pin down' DEFINITIVELY whether we do in fact have 'free will'.

And that means coming to grips with this:

All of this going back to how the matter we call the human brain was "somehow" able to acquire autonomy when non-living matter "somehow" became living matter "somehow" became conscious matter "somehow" became self-conscious matter.

And, let us NOT FORGET that 'you', adult human beings, here, in the days when this is being written, are STILL NOT YET Truly 'self-conscious' beings nor matter. And, this is just ANOTHER IRREFUTABLE Fact.

Then those here who actually believe that what they believe about all of this reflects, what, the ontological truth about the human condition itself?

Then those who are compelled in turn to insist on a teleological component as well. Usually in the form of one or another God.

Meanwhile, philosophers and scientists and theologians have been grappling with this profound mystery now for thousands of years.

This so-called 'mystery' has ALREADY BEEN RESOLVED.

Either in the only possible reality in the only possible world or of their own volition.

These discussions seem ultimately futile to me given both "the gap" and "rummy's Rule".

But some of us, for whatever reason [rooted largely in dasein], have just come to be so fascinated with all things philosophical that [compelled or not] we just cannot not keep from groping about for answers.

Til death do we part.

It is being 'rooted in dasein', which is what is ACTUALLY HOLDING 'you' BACK from FINDING and SEEING thee answers that are HERE, STARING BACK AT 'you'.

[Age]

2) would suggest that at the decision making level of consciousness, quantum indeterminacy in the least means that determinism has no hand to play in the decision, ergo free will.




On outcome 1) I'd say that the more choices in films that there were, the more I'd hedge against there being any form of free will.

But if 2 then reality is not determined. but random. Is that what free will is, randomness?
If free will is true then on what basis was the choice made?

No I believe that a lot of random shit is sub-consciously going on at once within our brain, and we are choosing with our free will which best suits.


What about Boony's Room?

Two identical copies of cricketer David Boon were made unbeknownst to him. The two copies of Boony, instantly appear facing each other from opposite corners of a white room that is 3 metres cubed, identical in all directions.

What happens next?
Do they both, at the same time, ask the exact same question of each other?
Do they end up arguing because they both keep attempting to interject at precisely the same time with precisely the same dialogue?

After five minutes, the pair hear a voice asking them to draw a picture of their favourite fruit on the wall and are told there is a pencil in their left pocket.

Do they both turn and draw on the same symmetrically opposite part of the wall?
Do they both draw identical images of the fruit?

'you' OBVIOUSLY MISSED the part about two IDENTICAL worlds.