Evolution and free will

[CHNOPS]

Why does evolution grant such a feeling, having free will, if it is an illusion? Free will is absolutely unnecessary in a deterministic world so why should we have it? No need to say that our world is not always deterministic because of the existence of options.

And why souldnt have it?

I mean, according to materialists everything in the universe including our brains that create the feeling of having free will is deterministic. The question is
why should we have this trait granted by evolution which is useless?

I'm not a materialist and I believe that everything in the universe including our brains that create the feeling of having free will is deterministic...

Why the evolution of the experience creates this feeling of free will?

Why the evolution of the experience creates suffering?

Why the evolution of the experience creates ignorance?

Why the evolution of the experience creates fear?

Why the evolution of the experience creates hungry?

All that manifestations are useless.

Are you agree with me that all that diferents manifestations are in the same way useless?

Do you recognize that is the same problem and so there is nothing special in "free will" at least in the way you are thinking right now?

[Belinda]

Ahem … ahem. Can you hear me? Good. Although limiting the dynamic flow of reality to the boundaries of a word definition such as “determinism” is like looking through the wrong end of a monocular in the sense of the tail wagging the dog, the blunder does sometimes manifest from all the possibilities of infinite potentiality* under the guise of intellectual fodder, when conditions are ripe enough to pop. Every move you make, every guess you take, brings what must be, closer still. The mystery fuels curiosity and motion, which in the case of the incurious is precious little. When there is no incentive to change, why change?

* there it is again

Ahem .... Ahem. I can hear you but I cannot understand you. You know, English is not my first language so I have difficulty understanding you no matter how many times I use a dictionary.

Sure language is a social activity that can't be captured in dictionaries. To learn a language from books the best thing is not dictionaries but novels that express the truth about real lives through fictional characters. In particular the sort of novels that are mostly dialogue or monologue..

[Hermit Philosopher]

Why does evolution grant such a feeling, having free will, if it is an illusion? Free will is absolutely unnecessary in a deterministic world so why should we have it? No need to say that our world is not always deterministic because of the existence of options.

Dear bahman,

I find it both possible and probable that life be determined, through an evolutionary process, to acquire “free will” and that what is an illusion is that this be a paradox.


Humbly,
Hermit

[bahman]

well ultimately consciousness, that networking of neural activity, would end up accidentally facilitating behaviors that gave the animal an edge, a better fitness level, a greater chance of surviving, etc.

really its language that gives the evolutionary edge... just that you gotta be conscious to be our kind of language user. it's the collecting, storing and passing of information that is what is useful to the species. can't have that without language and ya can't have language without consciousness. so consciousness is the vestigial accident by which language emerges, and since this characteristic helps the animal more than hurting it (although I've heard some pretty horrible poetry readings I'd not wish on anyone), its genetic coding gets passed successfully in reproduction. ergo, you have your functionality theory of consciousnesses.

an accident that while being very expensive (ten years at least to raise/teach a human child to defend itself), increases survival odds rather than lowering them.

it's our thumbs that saved us. we have designed and created a world a total moron can survive well in. a human being can be the mental equivalent of a juvenile its entire life. so a more technologically advanced world makes the price of consciousness less expensive.

I am aware of all these but that does not answer my question. Consciousness is the result of a process in matter (what materialists believe). The question is how consciousness can affect matter. Moreover, here we are discussing free will rather than consciousness.

[bahman]

"What is the survival value of consciousness if it is inert?"

See above.

Note nothing about 'causes' needs to be talked about here. Consciousness as some kind of immaterial second substance that acts on the material body to cause it to act, is a hypothesis not at all needed.

And to call consciousness an epiphenomena, btw, is a misnomer because there is no feature that is consciousness that may or may not have a causal effect on the behavior of the body in the first place.

In fact, you, the body that is bahman, has causal efficacy in the world and produces effects. Go kick your refrigerator to see what I mean.

But there is no second part of bahman that is not part of the body of operating causes at a neurophysiological level in your body. And sometimes some of those operating causes in the brain cause other operations to occur... in which case we could even say that 'bahman chose, moved, and made something happen' and this would be true. But nowhere is anything inferred about 'freewill'.

Tell me how consciousness which is the result of matter process can affect matter.

[bahman]

Why does evolution grant such a feeling, having free will, if it is an illusion? Free will is absolutely unnecessary in a deterministic world so why should we have it? No need to say that our world is not always deterministic because of the existence of options.

That is because although future events are determined, we have no knowledge of future events and must live as if we have free will.

That does not answer my question. If future events are determined then there is no need for having the feeling of free will. Moreover, given the fact that the knowledge of future events is not known how a deterministic system can choose one option over others?

[bahman]

And why souldnt have it?

I mean, according to materialists everything in the universe including our brains that create the feeling of having free will is deterministic. The question is
why should we have this trait granted by evolution which is useless?

I'm not a materialist and I believe that everything in the universe including our brains that create the feeling of having free will is deterministic...

Why the evolution of the experience creates this feeling of free will?

Why the evolution of the experience creates suffering?

Why the evolution of the experience creates ignorance?

Why the evolution of the experience creates fear?

Why the evolution of the experience creates hungry?

All that manifestations are useless.

Are you agree with me that all that diferents manifestations are in the same way useless?

I disagree. We are witnessing that free will, suffering, fear, etc. have a causal effect on us and the environment.

[bahman]

Why does evolution grant such a feeling, having free will, if it is an illusion? Free will is absolutely unnecessary in a deterministic world so why should we have it? No need to say that our world is not always deterministic because of the existence of options.

Dear bahman,

I find it both possible and probable that life be determined, through an evolutionary process, to acquire “free will” and that what is an illusion is that this be a paradox.


Humbly,
Hermit

I don't believe in paradox but our ignorance to explain a subject matter well.

[CHNOPS]

I mean, according to materialists everything in the universe including our brains that create the feeling of having free will is deterministic. The question is
why should we have this trait granted by evolution which is useless?

I'm not a materialist and I believe that everything in the universe including our brains that create the feeling of having free will is deterministic...

Why the evolution of the experience creates this feeling of free will?

Why the evolution of the experience creates suffering?

Why the evolution of the experience creates ignorance?

Why the evolution of the experience creates fear?

Why the evolution of the experience creates hungry?

All that manifestations are useless.

Are you agree with me that all that diferents manifestations are in the same way useless?

I disagree. We are witnessing that free will, suffering, fear, etc. have a causal effect on us and the environment.

Every manifestation has a causal effect. So?

I said that all that diferents kind of manifestation are in the same grade of useless.

I mean, is the same question to ask "Why free will?" or "Why ignorance" or "Why fear" or "Why hungry"?


And I want to know if you agree with that. I want to know if you see that there is the same "problem" with all that diferents kind of manifestation, and therefore there is nothing special with "free will".


You want to learn or you just want to say what you want and nothing more?
I want to know because I am new in this forum but I read your comments with others users and you seems to be more like a young thinker.

[Iwannaplato]

Why does evolution grant such a feeling, having free will, if it is an illusion? Free will is absolutely unnecessary in a deterministic world so why should we have it? No need to say that our world is not always deterministic because of the existence of options.

And why souldnt have it?

I mean, according to materialists everything in the universe including our brains that create the feeling of having free will is deterministic. The question is
why should we have this trait granted by evolution which is useless?

As long as it didn't cause problems, it can have been mutated into existence and the species continued. I think its most likely that everything is conscious. But there's no need to assume that something that arises via evolution must be useful. Evolutions isn't picking out tools or something. If you and yours keep going, it didn't lead you to be eliminated.

[Belinda]

Why does evolution grant such a feeling, having free will, if it is an illusion? Free will is absolutely unnecessary in a deterministic world so why should we have it? No need to say that our world is not always deterministic because of the existence of options.

That is because although future events are determined, we have no knowledge of future events and must live as if we have free will.

That does not answer my question. If future events are determined then there is no need for having the feeling of free will. Moreover, given the fact that the knowledge of future events is not known how a deterministic system can choose one option over others?

There is need for the feeling of free will , because men must make choices ;there is no alternative to making decisions if you want to remain alive.
It's not known what the future will be. We guess and fear.

God is a deterministic idea which is punitive ,or consoling according to the sort of God you hold to.

To make overall sense of the idea of free will ,you may say that nature, or God if you prefer, necessarily deems that men have the feeling of free will , if only as part of the ordering principle of natural selection.

[bahman]

I'm not a materialist and I believe that everything in the universe including our brains that create the feeling of having free will is deterministic...

Why the evolution of the experience creates this feeling of free will?

Why the evolution of the experience creates suffering?

Why the evolution of the experience creates ignorance?

Why the evolution of the experience creates fear?

Why the evolution of the experience creates hungry?

All that manifestations are useless.

Are you agree with me that all that diferents manifestations are in the same way useless?

I disagree. We are witnessing that free will, suffering, fear, etc. have a causal effect on us and the environment.

Every manifestation has a causal effect. So?

Yes.

I said that all that diferents kind of manifestation are in the same grade of useless.

That couldn't possibly be correct.

I mean, is the same question to ask "Why free will?" or "Why ignorance" or "Why fear" or "Why hungry"?


And I want to know if you agree with that. I want to know if you see that there is the same "problem" with all that diferents kind of manifestation, and therefore there is nothing special with "free will".

If you mean that in a deterministic/materialist world consciousness is inert then I agree with you. So they shouldn't have any causal effect in the materialistic world yet we see that there are causal effects so materialists are dealing with a problem.

You want to learn or you just want to say what you want and nothing more?
I want to know because I am new in this forum but I read your comments with others users and you seems to be more like a young thinker.

I am 55.

[bahman]

And why souldnt have it?

I mean, according to materialists everything in the universe including our brains that create the feeling of having free will is deterministic. The question is
why should we have this trait granted by evolution which is useless?

As long as it didn't cause problems, it can have been mutated into existence and the species continued.

It causes a problem. Such a big brain needs nutrition. If consciousness is useless then beings with bigger brains are at disadvantage.

I think its most likely that everything is conscious.

Really? How do you support it? To me just mind is conscious and qualia not.

But there's no need to assume that something that arises via evolution must be useful. Evolutions isn't picking out tools or something. If you and yours keep going, it didn't lead you to be eliminated.

Evolution is a random process that gives random traits to living beings. If a trait does not give an advantage over others then living beings will be eliminated because of competition for food.

[bahman]

That is because although future events are determined, we have no knowledge of future events and must live as if we have free will.

That does not answer my question. If future events are determined then there is no need for having the feeling of free will. Moreover, given the fact that the knowledge of future events is not known how a deterministic system can choose one option over others?

There is need for the feeling of free will , because men must make choices ;there is no alternative to making decisions if you want to remain alive.
It's not known what the future will be. We guess and fear.

But a feeling of free will cannot do anything unless it has a causal effect, in another word free will has to be real.

God is a deterministic idea that is punitive or consoling according to the sort of God you hold to.

Deterministic idea? What does that even mean?

[Hermit Philosopher]

Why does evolution grant such a feeling, having free will, if it is an illusion? Free will is absolutely unnecessary in a deterministic world so why should we have it? No need to say that our world is not always deterministic because of the existence of options.

Dear bahman,

I find it both possible and probable that life be determined, through an evolutionary process, to acquire “free will” and that what is an illusion is that this be a paradox.


Humbly,
Hermit

I don't believe in paradox but our ignorance to explain a subject matter well.

[Y]
Why is there no like-button on this sight?