Possible consequences of falsifying the principle of explosion?

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Speakpigeon
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Re: Possible consequences of falsifying the principle of explosion?

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PeteOlcott wrote: Wed May 01, 2019 7:42 pm
Speakpigeon wrote: Wed May 01, 2019 4:53 pm It just shows "logicians" don't understand logic, not that there is any real problem, i.e. any real consequence for mathematics and mathematical theorems.
I think that it formalizes the concept of logical entailment incorrectly. It seems to show cause-and-effect between semantically unrelated things when none actually exists because they are semantically unrelated.
You would need to provide a specific example of "unrelated things".
I don't know of any valid implication where the antecedent and the consequent are unrelated outside the principle of explosion.
A ∨ B is obviously related to A, so A ⊢ A ∨ B is not an example of "unrelated things".
So, do you have any example outside the principle of explosion?
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Re: Possible consequences of falsifying the principle of explosion?

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PeteOlcott wrote: Wed May 01, 2019 7:47 pm
Speakpigeon wrote: Wed May 01, 2019 5:15 pm I agree mathematical logic is wrong. It is wrong in the sense that it doesn't formalise properly the logic of human reasoning. However, it seems we have to put up with this situation because nobody can offer a better alternative. Further, if the problem has no impact on mathematics then there is in fact no problem. If you disagree with this, please explain what bad consequence on mathematics you think there are.
EB
"It is wrong in the sense that it doesn't formalise properly the logic of human reasoning."
This screws all kind of things up such as "proving" Tarski Undefinability when Truth <is>
defined as simply as this:

If we simply construe Axioms as expressions of language having the semantic property of
Boolean true this would anchor the syntax of formal proofs to the semantics of Boolean values.

Now we have: [Deductively Sound Formal Proofs] True(x) ↔ (⊢x)
[a connected sequence of inference from axioms to a true consequence].
AKA the same universal truth predicate that Tarski "proved" was impossible.
Sorry, but you're not making sense. Are you saying that Tarski's proof relies on the principle of explosion?! I would need evidence of that... Is there a link available to Tarski proof?
EB
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Re: Possible consequences of falsifying the principle of explosion?

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Scott Mayers wrote: Wed May 01, 2019 5:47 pm SOME call it a paradox for it being unresolved in their opinion. This is noted in most texts to be fair about the controversies of others but not usually of those writing the texts themselves.
I'm not sure what concern you might have for this thread and so would need a better example that you could express of what is contradicting here.
If you already agree but pointing out that it isn't an actual contradiction, I agree and my post is in support of that point.
The inference A ∧ ¬A ⊢ B isn't a contradiction but it is seen as a paradox. It is seen as a paradox in the sense that it contradicts our intuition, which is that B has nothing to do with A ∧ ¬A and so cannot be implicated by it.
It seems clear that A ∧ ¬A ⊢ B is in contradiction with our logical intuition and Aristotelian logic. And I don't know of any justification that A ∧ ¬A ⊢ B should be valid. It may follow from the definition of the material implication but there is no justification of that definition.
Further, A ∧ ¬A (in A ∧ ¬A ⊢ B) is an actual contradiction. It doesn't seem to make any sense to infer anything from a contradiction. The fact that none of the systems of axioms in use in mathematics today include a contradiction doesn't change the fact that most mathematicians accept the inference A ∧ ¬A ⊢ B as valid even though it is nonsense.
However, this isn't the topic of this thread. The topic is whether falsifying A ∧ ¬A ⊢ B would affect any mathematical result.
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Re: Possible consequences of falsifying the principle of explosion?

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PeteOlcott wrote: Wed May 01, 2019 7:37 pm The only actual truth that exists is merely the tautological connections between names.
I would advise caution here. Maybe you don't know any other truth but that in itself doesn't prove there are no other truths. Maybe we only lack a proper definition of empirical truth...
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Re: Possible consequences of falsifying the principle of explosion?

Post by PeteOlcott »

Speakpigeon wrote: Wed May 01, 2019 8:26 pm
PeteOlcott wrote: Wed May 01, 2019 7:42 pm
Speakpigeon wrote: Wed May 01, 2019 4:53 pm It just shows "logicians" don't understand logic, not that there is any real problem, i.e. any real consequence for mathematics and mathematical theorems.
I think that it formalizes the concept of logical entailment incorrectly. It seems to show cause-and-effect between semantically unrelated things when none actually exists because they are semantically unrelated.
You would need to provide a specific example of "unrelated things".
I don't know of any valid implication where the antecedent and the consequent are unrelated outside the principle of explosion.
A ∨ B is obviously related to A, so A ⊢ A ∨ B is not an example of "unrelated things".
So, do you have any example outside the principle of explosion?
EB
(cats are not dogs) and (cats are dogs) proves that an ice cream cone in the creator of the universe.
PeteOlcott
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Re: Possible consequences of falsifying the principle of explosion?

Post by PeteOlcott »

Speakpigeon wrote: Wed May 01, 2019 8:32 pm
PeteOlcott wrote: Wed May 01, 2019 7:47 pm
Speakpigeon wrote: Wed May 01, 2019 5:15 pm I agree mathematical logic is wrong. It is wrong in the sense that it doesn't formalise properly the logic of human reasoning. However, it seems we have to put up with this situation because nobody can offer a better alternative. Further, if the problem has no impact on mathematics then there is in fact no problem. If you disagree with this, please explain what bad consequence on mathematics you think there are.
EB
"It is wrong in the sense that it doesn't formalise properly the logic of human reasoning."
This screws all kind of things up such as "proving" Tarski Undefinability when Truth <is>
defined as simply as this:

If we simply construe Axioms as expressions of language having the semantic property of
Boolean true this would anchor the syntax of formal proofs to the semantics of Boolean values.

Now we have: [Deductively Sound Formal Proofs] True(x) ↔ (⊢x)
[a connected sequence of inference from axioms to a true consequence].
AKA the same universal truth predicate that Tarski "proved" was impossible.
Sorry, but you're not making sense. Are you saying that Tarski's proof relies on the principle of explosion?! I would need evidence of that... Is there a link available to Tarski proof?
EB
Tarski's proof:
"It is wrong in the sense that it doesn't formalise properly the logic of human reasoning."
When we "formalise properly the logic of human reasoning" we get:
[a connected set of known truths necessarily always derives truth]


With no undecidability, incompleteness or inconsistency.

he 1936 Tarski Undefinability Proof
http://liarparadox.org/Tarski_Proof_275_276.pdf
Last edited by PeteOlcott on Wed May 01, 2019 10:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Possible consequences of falsifying the principle of explosion?

Post by PeteOlcott »

Speakpigeon wrote: Wed May 01, 2019 9:10 pm
PeteOlcott wrote: Wed May 01, 2019 7:37 pm The only actual truth that exists is merely the tautological connections between names.
I would advise caution here. Maybe you don't know any other truth but that in itself doesn't prove there are no other truths. Maybe we only lack a proper definition of empirical truth...
EB
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/induction-problem/
The "Problem of Induction" proves that inductive inference is not perfectly
100% reliable therefore not necessarily true.

Other thought experiments propose possible worlds where empirical truth
cannot be relied upon, thus empirical truth is not necessarily true in all
possible worlds.
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Re: Possible consequences of falsifying the principle of explosion?

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PeteOlcott wrote: Wed May 01, 2019 9:54 pm
Speakpigeon wrote: Wed May 01, 2019 8:26 pm
PeteOlcott wrote: Wed May 01, 2019 7:42 pm I think that it formalizes the concept of logical entailment incorrectly. It seems to show cause-and-effect between semantically unrelated things when none actually exists because they are semantically unrelated.
You would need to provide a specific example of "unrelated things". I don't know of any valid implication where the antecedent and the consequent are unrelated outside the principle of explosion. A ∨ B is obviously related to A, so A ⊢ A ∨ B is not an example of "unrelated things". So, do you have any example outside the principle of explosion?
(cats are not dogs) and (cats are dogs) proves that an ice cream cone in the creator of the universe.
Right, so you don't have any example outside cases of a false antecedent.
As I understand it, those cases cannot have any consequence, in mathematics or elsewhere, precisely because the antecedent is false, which makes the argument valid but unsound. Isn't that correct?
Maybe I'm wrong since apparently no one seems willing to answer conclusively my simple question, so, presumably no one knows the answer.
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Re: Possible consequences of falsifying the principle of explosion?

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PeteOlcott wrote: Wed May 01, 2019 9:59 pm Tarski's proof:
"It is wrong in the sense that it doesn't formalise properly the logic of human reasoning."
When we "formalise properly the logic of human reasoning" we get:
[a connected set of known truths necessarily always derives truth]


With no undecidability, incompleteness or inconsistency.

he 1936 Tarski Undefinability Proof
http://liarparadox.org/Tarski_Proof_275_276.pdf
I don't think this is the problem you seem to believe it is.
The concept of truth which Tarski explicitly admits to in the book your referencing here, is truth as correspondence between a description and the thing described. So, if we accept that we know some thing, then it makes sense to qualify our description of this thing as "true", whatever our description may be. Thus, the description of the thing you know as you know it is necessarily true because true by definition of the word "true". Thus, the concept of truth makes sense.
It seems you've just described the concept of truth, in the context of logic, as you think you know it. We can all do it each in our own way and it's fine.
Yet, deciding on a definition you accept doesn't mean it's free of Tarski proof that truth cannot be defined in a logically coherent way.
So, the proof is in the pudding: Apply Tarski's proof to your definition of truth as a sentence you assert is true. Why exactly would Tarski's proof fail with your sentence given that it applies to all sentences? What's wrong in Tarski's proof?
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Re: Possible consequences of falsifying the principle of explosion?

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PeteOlcott wrote: Wed May 01, 2019 10:04 pm
Speakpigeon wrote: Wed May 01, 2019 9:10 pm
PeteOlcott wrote: Wed May 01, 2019 7:37 pm The only actual truth that exists is merely the tautological connections between names.
I would advise caution here. Maybe you don't know any other truth but that in itself doesn't prove there are no other truths. Maybe we only lack a proper definition of empirical truth...
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/induction-problem/
The "Problem of Induction" proves that inductive inference is not perfectly 100% reliable therefore not necessarily true.
Sure, we all know that, and so you can't possibly know that the only actual truth that exists is merely the tautological connections between names. Because on the one hand tautologies are irrelevant to empirical truth and on the other hand there can't be any empirical truth that there ain't any empirical truth.
And indeed, it's true that I know pain whenever I am in pain. Is that a tautology do you think?
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Re: Possible consequences of falsifying the principle of explosion?

Post by Scott Mayers »

Speakpigeon wrote: Wed May 01, 2019 9:02 pm
Scott Mayers wrote: Wed May 01, 2019 5:47 pm SOME call it a paradox for it being unresolved in their opinion. This is noted in most texts to be fair about the controversies of others but not usually of those writing the texts themselves.
I'm not sure what concern you might have for this thread and so would need a better example that you could express of what is contradicting here.
If you already agree but pointing out that it isn't an actual contradiction, I agree and my post is in support of that point.
The inference A ∧ ¬A ⊢ B isn't a contradiction but it is seen as a paradox. It is seen as a paradox in the sense that it contradicts our intuition, which is that B has nothing to do with A ∧ ¬A and so cannot be implicated by it.
It seems clear that A ∧ ¬A ⊢ B is in contradiction with our logical intuition and Aristotelian logic. And I don't know of any justification that A ∧ ¬A ⊢ B should be valid. It may follow from the definition of the material implication but there is no justification of that definition.
Further, A ∧ ¬A (in A ∧ ¬A ⊢ B) is an actual contradiction. It doesn't seem to make any sense to infer anything from a contradiction. The fact that none of the systems of axioms in use in mathematics today include a contradiction doesn't change the fact that most mathematicians accept the inference A ∧ ¬A ⊢ B as valid even though it is nonsense.
However, this isn't the topic of this thread. The topic is whether falsifying A ∧ ¬A ⊢ B would affect any mathematical result.
EB
I'm not understanding the concern at all here except that you maybe assume contradiction cannot be useful in a system. ?

In my own physics theory I utilize "contradiction" as the linchpin of causation or 'force'. Multi-value logic does this by having at least a 'third' value and where the term "con-tra-dict-ion" means with third spoken/commanded part/factor.

The particular Propositional Calculus I used above that uses binary values takes the contradiction as being unallowed for closure but even with the point I make about a 'force' there is a "logical force" that compels us to avoid situations that are contradictory. But that doesn't HAVE to be the end but a 'trigger' to do something else.

For example, lets say you set up a three valued system such as {0, 1, P}. Here '0' can represent "false", '1' as "true", and "P" can stand for "Next". When you have anything that might normally contradict in binary, you might have a rule such as

(0 & 1) ⭢ P

...which when P is triggered, it can have a rule that does anything. We DO have the rule, "STOP", when we run into this case and so can be interpreted as P == STOP, by an assigned semantic constant.

All the Principle of Explosion does is DEFINE those systems that use the minimal binary level logic of truth values as 'invalid' for the reason that anything 'false' is infinitely inclusive. So it is defined by assigning the MEANING of 'false' as equivalent to being both (false & true).

Here is the 'explosion' expressed:

Let something be given or determined as 'false'. With the defining of something false as meaning 'false & true' ,

False
= (False & True)
= (False & True) & True
= ((False & True) & True) & True
....etc


So anything false leads to an infinity of truths.

The 'principle' is just an agreement in this sense. But we don't HAVE to require a system of reasoning that is limited to binary values or to a single conclusion.

Logic is just like any rule book to some game. You can have a game that allows this 'explosion'. Games that use 'cycles' that can potentially go on forever is like this.
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Re: Possible consequences of falsifying the principle of explosion?

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By the way, in another thread just opened called, "All religions begins with this notion:" by Osgart may be a material example of concern you guys have.

He uses what he believes is a contradiction IN THE MEANING of his propositions, but his conclusion also leads to a contradiction ignoring the internal meaning. Thus we have an apparent paradox.

I begun expanding upon that here but will hold off to discuss it there in respect. But it relates.
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Re: Possible consequences of falsifying the principle of explosion?

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Scott Mayers wrote: Thu May 02, 2019 11:21 am I'm not understanding the concern at all here except that you maybe assume contradiction cannot be useful in a system. ?
The question is whether the inference A ∧ ¬A ⊢ B, which is deemed valid in standard mathematical logic, is used in the proof of theorems in standard mathematics.
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Re: Possible consequences of falsifying the principle of explosion?

Post by Scott Mayers »

Speakpigeon wrote: Thu May 02, 2019 3:27 pm
Scott Mayers wrote: Thu May 02, 2019 11:21 am I'm not understanding the concern at all here except that you maybe assume contradiction cannot be useful in a system. ?
The question is whether the inference A ∧ ¬A ⊢ B, which is deemed valid in standard mathematical logic, is used in the proof of theorems in standard mathematics.
EB
That statement does NOT mean anything as it stands. So you need to prove what it could mean first.
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Re: Possible consequences of falsifying the principle of explosion?

Post by PeteOlcott »

Speakpigeon wrote: Thu May 02, 2019 9:00 am Right, so you don't have any example outside cases of a false antecedent.
As I understand it, those cases cannot have any consequence, in mathematics or elsewhere, precisely because the antecedent is false, which makes the argument valid but unsound. Isn't that correct?
Maybe I'm wrong since apparently no one seems willing to answer conclusively my simple question, so, presumably no one knows the answer.
EB
You understand it incorrectly: It has a valid consequence.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle ... esentation
P, ¬P ⊢ Q
(For any statements P and Q, if P and not-P are both true, then it logically follows that Q is true.)

If living_thing->animal->cat is an office building then it logically
follows that an ice cream cone is the actual creator of the universe.
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