My point is that the upper bound does not exist.Logik wrote: ↑Mon Jan 07, 2019 3:21 pmThen your mindset is incompatible with naive set theory. In order to avoid Russel's paradox - the "Greatest" (universal set) was discarded.
Because we are bounded rationalists whatever is claimed to be "The Greatest" - I can simply imagine two of them...
If God is the greatest, then two Gods are greater. And If you can imagine one God, you sure can imagine two!
The whole point of Anselm's argument is to establish an ontological upper bound. The line where reality ends and imagination begins.
The greatest does not exist therefore Anselm ontological argument is wrong
Re: The greatest does not exist therefore Anselm ontological argument is wrong
Re: The greatest does not exist therefore Anselm ontological argument is wrong
If you are a type theorist then:
1. The Universe == The Greatest Imaginable Thing.
2. The Universe is a singleton, so you cannot argue that 2 * Universe > 1 * Universe. There is only one universe! The very notion of 2* universe is nonsense.
3. If God == The Greatest Imaginable Thing AND Universe == Greatest Imaginable Thing
Then God == The Universe
If A = B and B = C, then A = C.
Re: The greatest does not exist therefore Anselm ontological argument is wrong
That's just a choice. You can say that it does, or you can say that it doesn't.
Infinities are unwieldy. I prefer bounded rationality (but will happily cheat for pragmatic reasons)
Last edited by Logik on Mon Jan 07, 2019 3:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: The greatest does not exist therefore Anselm ontological argument is wrong
I agree with what you said but God in this way is not a person but the whole.Logik wrote: ↑Mon Jan 07, 2019 3:31 pmIf you are a type theorist then:
1. The Universe == The Greatest Imaginable Thing.
2. The Universe is a singleton, so you cannot argue that 2 * Universe > 1 * Universe. There is only one universe! The very notion of 2* universe is nonsense.
3. If God == The Greatest Imaginable Thing AND Universe == Greatest Imaginable Thing
Then God == The Universe
If A = B and B = C, then A = C.
Re: The greatest does not exist therefore Anselm ontological argument is wrong
It doesn't matter if God is a person or a photon.
Even if God is a photon it is necessarily inside The Universe. By definition.
For if God was transcendental then The Greatest Thing Imaginable is not The Universe.
The Greatest Thing Imaginable is The Universe + 1 photon. That contradicts the axiom.
Last edited by Logik on Mon Jan 07, 2019 3:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: The greatest does not exist therefore Anselm ontological argument is wrong
I already argued against bounded rationality. If the universe is bounded then it is bounded by something else, etc.
Re: The greatest does not exist therefore Anselm ontological argument is wrong
Re: The greatest does not exist therefore Anselm ontological argument is wrong
It matters. Why bother and call the universe God?Logik wrote: ↑Mon Jan 07, 2019 3:36 pmIt doesn't matter if God is a person or a photon.
Even if God is a photon it is necessarily inside The Universe. By definition.
For if God was transcendental then The Greatest Thing Imaginable is not The Universe.
The Greatest Thing Imaginable is The Universe + 1 photon. That contradicts the axiom.
Re: The greatest does not exist therefore Anselm ontological argument is wrong
Because synonyms.
Or because cultural disconnect evolving epistemology in isolation. That's how languages emerge.
Last edited by Logik on Mon Jan 07, 2019 3:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: The greatest does not exist therefore Anselm ontological argument is wrong
Humans have been fighting over language/synonyms for 2000 years.
We are that stupid...
My synonym is bigger than yours!
-
- Posts: 12928
- Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:41 am
Re: The greatest does not exist therefore Anselm ontological argument is wrong
Nope.bahman wrote: ↑Mon Jan 07, 2019 3:18 pmThe greatest exists for any instance at any given time. The greatest imaginable, the absolute, does not exist. I had to be more precise.Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Mon Jan 07, 2019 6:33 amSt. Anselm Ontological God is logically [re logic only] possible.
As you posited, it is not mathematically possible.
But as I had proven, it is empirical-rationally impossible to be real.
Since the ontological God is impossible to be empirical-rationally real, there is no question of 'God exists as real' nor 'God does not exist' because that is a non-starter, i.e. moot.
Why the idea of God emerges onto human consciousness is due to the compulsion of some terrible psychological forces driven by a real existential crisis.
The idea of God exists is only useful for psychological reasons and nothing else.
Logically, it is always possible for something greater than whatever is the greatest to exists, note infinite regression.
To stop infinite regression one will have to introduce the idea of the ontological God, i.e.
God is an entity than which NO greater can exists.
But as I had proven, the imperative ontological God is empirical-rationally impossible to be real.
Re: The greatest does not exist therefore Anselm ontological argument is wrong
I fixed it for you.Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Tue Jan 08, 2019 5:20 am Nope.
Logically, it is always possible for something greater than whatever is the greatest to exists, note infinite regression.
To stop infinite regression one will have to introduce the idea of the ontological G̶o̶d̶Universe, i.e.
G̶o̶d̶Universe is an entity than which NO greater can exists.
But as I had proven, the imperative ontological G̶o̶d̶Universe is empirical-rationally impossible to be real.
Re: The greatest does not exist therefore Anselm ontological argument is wrong
My point was about a reality which is bounded. I however think that the reality is unbound. So, here I accept my error in the previous post.Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Tue Jan 08, 2019 5:20 amNope.bahman wrote: ↑Mon Jan 07, 2019 3:18 pmThe greatest exists for any instance at any given time. The greatest imaginable, the absolute, does not exist. I had to be more precise.Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Mon Jan 07, 2019 6:33 am
St. Anselm Ontological God is logically [re logic only] possible.
As you posited, it is not mathematically possible.
But as I had proven, it is empirical-rationally impossible to be real.
Since the ontological God is impossible to be empirical-rationally real, there is no question of 'God exists as real' nor 'God does not exist' because that is a non-starter, i.e. moot.
Why the idea of God emerges onto human consciousness is due to the compulsion of some terrible psychological forces driven by a real existential crisis.
The idea of God exists is only useful for psychological reasons and nothing else.
Logically, it is always possible for something greater than whatever is the greatest to exists, note infinite regression.
To stop infinite regression one will have to introduce the idea of the ontological God, i.e.
God is an entity than which NO greater can exists.
But as I had proven, the imperative ontological God is empirical-rationally impossible to be real.
-
- Posts: 12928
- Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:41 am
Re: The greatest does not exist therefore Anselm ontological argument is wrong
Reality is a "thing" -whatever that is, as such it cannot be unbounded.bahman wrote: ↑Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:44 pmMy point was about a reality which is bounded. I however think that the reality is unbound. So, here I accept my error in the previous post.Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Tue Jan 08, 2019 5:20 amNope.
Logically, it is always possible for something greater than whatever is the greatest to exists, note infinite regression.
To stop infinite regression one will have to introduce the idea of the ontological God, i.e.
God is an entity than which NO greater can exists.
But as I had proven, the imperative ontological God is empirical-rationally impossible to be real.
Unboundedness if assigned to anything, e.g. reality in this case is an impossibility.
Thus Wittgenstein's "Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent."
Literally, it mean one need to just shut-up and resist the tendency to say something [thus within bound] on this point.
I have argued this tendency is actually psychological within your own mind rather than there is an unbounded reality or the Absolute.
Note there are those within spirituality who cultivate artful skills to manage and modulate such a psychological tendency and thus free themselves of this burdensome tendency/yearning to reify the impossible.